Wouldn't Exotic Weapons Be Simple Weapons In Tian Xia?

[chopswil]

Am I over thinking this but the term exotic is relative.
But it seems the western weapons in Tian Xia would be exotic.

[Weren Wu Jen]

Yes, it's most vexing.

Even worse, some "Exotic" weapons are actually simple weapons with funny names.

Kama = Sickle

Kama is the oriental version of the Sickle, used for the same purpose (farming), except that the Kama's blade isn't as curved.

[Nicos]

I would say yes, is the same tihng that

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name as a martial weapon.

[Mort the Cleverly Named]

"Exotic" generally deals with a weapon's power, not its origin. They have an improved damage die, crit range, or special ability. For example, Bastard Swords aren't a particularly "exotic" weapon, but it is a slightly improved Longsword and thus requires the feat. Beyond that, most of the exotic weapons are exotic even in their areas of origin. Regardless of culture, rope darts and urumis are complicated weapons that take very specific techniques to use.

The more common eastern exotics (katana, wakizashi, etc) are a bit of a problem. They are given as free proficiencies with the Samurai and Ninja, which helps a bit. As does the fact you can use a katana as a two-handed martial weapon. More of this would have helped (wakizashi=bastard kukri?), but I feel like that can be house rules if it is seriously an issue.

[Jeff de luna]

Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:

"Exotic" generally deals with a weapon's power, not its origin. They have an improved damage die, crit range, or special ability. For example, Bastard Swords aren't a particularly "exotic" weapon, but it is a slightly improved Longsword and thus requires the feat. Beyond that, most of the exotic weapons are exotic even in their areas of origin. Regardless of culture, rope darts and urumis are complicated weapons that take very specific techniques to use.

The more common eastern exotics (katana, wakizashi, etc) are a bit of a problem. They are given as free proficiencies with the Samurai and Ninja, which helps a bit. As does the fact you can use a katana as a two-handed martial weapon. More of this would have helped (wakizashi=bastard kukri?), but I feel like that can be house rules if it is seriously an issue.

At least in Japan, these weapons were limited to the noble, warrior caste and criminals, so it's reasonable to keep them out of the hands of commoners.

Most of the stranger and more interesting South Asian weapons would normally have been wielded by a Kshatriya or a bandit as well.

[Shuriken Nekogami]

it was the Katana that was limited to the noble cast. anyone could own a Wakazashi.

[Jaatu Bronzescale]

As the DM, you can resolve this by creating a 'national weapon familiarity trait' that lets Tian Xia use the weapons as martial weapons.

I'm not sure I'd include /all/ of those exotics as martial, but perhaps alter them by class. so a Tian Xia spearfighter treats all spearlike exotics as martial or something similar.

It's imbalanced if ONLY the pc's benefit from it, but if he's creating npcs following those same rules and benefiting from the free EWP for specific weapons, then it shouldn't be too out of whack.

[Boxhead]

To be fair, what makes most of those weapons exotic seems to be the monk weapon property. I see no reason why Tian Xia commoners need a kama (with the weapon property) when they can just use a sickle's stats and refer to it by a local name.

I had to have it pointed out to me, but many of the less exotic "eastern" weapons in Ultimate Combat are in fact Martial.

[DΗ]

IME the distinction between martial and exotic is virtually nonexistant. Most of the exotic weapons (bastard sword excluded) are no better than their martial counterparts.

Personally I say just swap up the weapon lists if youre running a game in Tian Xia.

[Jeff de luna]

Jaatu Bronzescale wrote:

As the DM, you can resolve this by creating a 'national weapon familiarity trait' that lets Tian Xia use the weapons as martial weapons.

I'm not sure I'd include /all/ of those exotics as martial, but perhaps alter them by class. so a Tian Xia spearfighter treats all spearlike exotics as martial or something similar.

It's imbalanced if ONLY the pc's benefit from it, but if he's creating npcs following those same rules and benefiting from the free EWP for specific weapons, then it shouldn't be too out of whack.

I agree with this. I wonder if something along these lines will appear in the Dragon Empires Primer, however.

[LazarX]

Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:

The more common eastern exotics (katana, wakizashi, etc) are a bit of a problem. They are given as free proficiencies with the Samurai and Ninja, which helps a bit. As does the fact you can use a katana as a two-handed martial weapon. More of this would have helped (wakizashi=bastard kukri?), but I feel like that can be house rules if it is seriously an issue.

For the bulk of the native population they would remain exotic weapons just as one-handing bastard swords and hand crossbows are exotic for westerners. They're simply not part of basic martial training. Especially those weapons like the katana which are specifically targeted at samurai.

[GeneticDrift]

You could just use the normal weapons and rules as they are since it's not a big deal. They can farm with a sickle just fine. The weapons are not different enough to worry over, so what ever you end up doing will be fine.

[Forlarren]

LazarX wrote:

Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:

The more common eastern exotics (katana, wakizashi, etc) are a bit of a problem. They are given as free proficiencies with the Samurai and Ninja, which helps a bit. As does the fact you can use a katana as a two-handed martial weapon. More of this would have helped (wakizashi=bastard kukri?), but I feel like that can be house rules if it is seriously an issue.

For the bulk of the native population they would remain exotic weapons just as one-handing bastard swords and hand crossbows are exotic for westerners. They're simply not part of basic martial training. Especially those weapons like the katana which are specifically targeted at samurai.

What I always figured was a weapon was exotic for two reasons.

First: if the weapon was a unbalanced (bastard sword), you have to buy it with a feat.

Second: the monk and monk like classes, for flavor, and balancing reasons again.

The justification is that "exotic" weapons take special training to use correctly, by a qualified teacher, and a certain level of commitment to become proficient, compared to simpler weapons. For example if you pick up a long sword and just start whacking things eventually you can get some skill, if you do the same with a katana, you will have a broken katana. As for eastern weapons, a lot of them are kind of crazy inventions, to the point where it is unreasonable to expect anyone to be familiar very many of them. I guess what I am saying is exotic weapons from the east are not exotic because they are eastern but because easterners like exotic weapons.

[Kthulhu]

Forlarren wrote:

For example if you pick up a long sword and just start whacking things eventually you can get some skill, if you do the same with a katana, you will have a broken katana.

Gotta love when someone breaks out the whole "only Eastern swords are really swords" bullcrap.

Western swords were made of better steel, and their wielders shows just as much variation in skill as their Eastern counterparts. (Meaning that there were Western swordsmen who were just as good as the best Eastern swordsmen, and there were Eastern swordsmen who might as well have been swinging a rusty lead pipe.)

[James Jacobs]

Tian Xia treats these weapons the same way that Ultimate Combat treats them.

Exotic Weapons aren't "weapons from somewhere other than Europe."

They're weapons that have unusual or strange abilities that make them slightly better than similar Martial weapons.

Whether or not the design of any one specific exotic weapon meats that design goal is debatable, but that's what an exotic weapon is supposed to be—a martial weapon that's just a LITTLE bit better than a martial weapon should be.

Regions have nothing to do with it. Katana-worship has even less to do with it.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Boxhead wrote:

I see no reason why Tian Xia commoners need a kama (with the weapon property) when they can just use a sickle's stats and refer to it by a local name.

The local name for sickle would be kama. It is the same object.

[Forlarren]

Kthulhu wrote:

Gotta love when someone breaks out the whole "only Eastern swords are really swords" bullcrap.

I hope this was a tangent and not what you got from my post. Personally I'm a claymore kind of guy, I can pull off trips, disarms, bludgeoning, and it's almost as good as a shield if your just defending yourself, and I haven't even used the pointy end yet, but now I am off on a tangent.

In my mind an exotic weapon is any weapon your more likely to hurt yourself with than your enemy if you were a completely untrained teenager (nunchuks, whips, boomerang, skateboard, those arm swords you can buy at flea markets, you get the idea). Well that is the excuse, the reason is outlined by Mr. Jacobs above.

Edit: About the Kama from Wikipedia.

"the hard edge of the blade would be kept razor-sharp to enable efficient cutting of crops, though this is sometimes a cause of training accidents by unskilled wielders"

Edit 2: On sickles and kamas.

Generally when someone says sickle they are talking about the hooked farm implement that can also be used in a fight (though it isn't great).

The kama on the other hand looks suspiciously like a farm implement designed to get around the no weapon laws (straighter blade curved not hooked for better reach against human targets) that were prevalent at the time, to the determent of the tools declared purpose (easier to stab yourself while farming). It is in fact a weapon first, a farm tool second (even though any given kama would spend most it's life cutting rice), pretending to be the opposite.

I could be entirely wrong about the kama, but it is a reoccurring theme in eastern weapon design, so lets call it my educated guess.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Nope its a farming tool You have it backwards. It is just a sickle, nothing more. However as they could carry such a tool they then developed fighting styles that used it.

The Kama was used as a tool long, long before it was a weapon. It is as much a weapon as the standard sickle is.

[Cheng MacCheng of Clan MacCheng]

James Jacobs wrote:

Katana-worship has even less to do with it.

This gives me an idea an Oracle.

[Forlarren]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

The Kama was used as a tool long, long before it was a weapon. It is as much a weapon as the standard sickle is.

Again tricky farmers have been at the hidden weapon game for a long long time. I would appreciate some more sources on kama history (I already read the wiki article before my first post), specifically what shape were the very early kama, does it differ from the kama portrayed in Golarion? Not to mention the kama as a tool uses an entirely different skill set compared to using one as a weapon.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

It is as much a weapon as the standard sickle is.

Anything can be a weapon with enough imagination. The question is would the kama (as a weapon) be an exotic weapon in Tian Xai?

Considering the difference between a long sword and a bastard sword is less than the differences between a sickle and kama (just look at it, they might do the same job but they are very different physically) I feel it is safe to say not only is there precedent that the kama should remain exotic logically, but because it is better than the sickle it should remain exotic for balance reasons as well.

[seekerofshadowlight]

I wasn't talking about how the game handles stats. You said they should call the sickle by the locale name. That is kama and if ya want to get technical. The "bastardsword" is a longsword. The thing the game calls a long sword would be a arming sword. Two totally different weapons, unlike the sickle and Kama which are two names for the same weapon.

And as you asked for it. I did a fast search

Calls it a sickle
Call it "a Japanese farming implement, not dissimilar to a sickle, used for cutting crops"
Calls it a sickle
Also calla it a sickle
Calls it a sickle
Calls it a farming tool

I can keep going but there is no point. The kama is a sickle. The designers messed up and gave one weapon two different set of stats based upon how it was used and because one had a Asian name.

[TerraNova]

The Crux of the matter is, I think, weapon statistics and not names.

If you want to call your club a tonfa or your sabre a dao - that's not going to be a problem with most people I prefer to game with. If you want better stats for your "item", you have to pay the tax feat.