{Not sure if this is the correct forum for this.}
Everyone seems to feel that Pathfinder is not appropriate for a lower rate of magic items. basically that it is not possible without a huge amount of work revising most of the rules, monsters, and classes.
Does anyone know of a system that will work better?
{Not sure if this is the correct forum for this.}
Everyone seems to feel that Pathfinder is not appropriate for a lower rate of magic items. basically that it is not possible without a huge amount of work revising most of the rules, monsters, and classes.
Does anyone know of a system that will work better?
funnily enough:Ars magica 2 edition lots of personal power magic , but little in the way of magic items (from what I remember). It is not d20 though.
I hear Iron Heroes may work in that vein.
I have no idea how the FATE system (dresden files) handles gear issues
Or go the Indy game route, to tout my amigos game Becoming Heroes
The Apocalypse World hack Dungeon World
Modify the 18 pages long game Lady Blackbird to take out the magic spaceships and being able to breathe the aether land lock it to one planet.
So far the AGE system by Green Ronin seems to emphasize magic items quite a bit less.
Iron Heroes its what it does.
Conan is good that way. So is Warhammer. 4E can do it fine to if you use the inherent bonus rules. Savage World would work. True20 and Mutants and Masterminds could also work well. I'm looking at trying a True20 campaign, in part for that reason.
Well what are you looking for in Low Magic? Do you want the exact same game just without giving people magic items, or do you want something that actually plays at a lower power curve as well?
I was looking for something where magic is special. I love pathfinder, but I would also like to try a campaign where you don't just go to a shop and buy a +2 trident of elemental bane when every you want one. Then sell it because it a couple of levels it is no longer that great.
I'd personally go with E6 (i.e. the variant Pathfinder or D&D where you plateau in power starting at level 6).
Any game with cosmic power levels (like level 20 wizards in D&D) is going to make magic items seem a tad less special.
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Hmmm, not to say anything bad about alternative systems (as many wonderful RPGs are out there) perhaps you might be the problem with the abundance of magic items.
If your looking at the actual suggested value of items available in even the biggest city your not going to be able to find any specific +3 weapon without a bit of luck.
The gold cap for a normal campaign in a metropolis is 16k in gold, and for a low magic that's value would be cut in half. Effectively the Pathfinder RPG isn't responsible for a buy anything and sell anything magic store. Just saying. :)
... The gold cap for a normal campaign in a metropolis is 16k in gold, and for a low magic that's value would be cut in half. Effectively the Pathfinder RPG isn't responsible for a buy anything and sell anything magic store. Just saying. :)
Yes. I was exaggerating due to some frustration. It is the attitude that magic items are just another tool nothing really special about it. Running through published modules one of our groups bags of holding filled with magic items that we didn't have a use for and were just trying to get the time to find a buyer for them.
meh just another necromancer staff... just stick it in the bag until we can trade it to a crafter to make an item we really want.
Everyone seems to feel that Pathfinder is not appropriate for a lower rate of magic items. (snip) Does anyone know of a system that will work better?
I believe that Pathfinder RPG can work great with low magic items, even by RaW.
A good part of magic item dependency is due to player's expectation. The system expects it too, but lee than the players IMO. I suspect that a lot of the naysayers never actually tried it and base their whole arguments on mathematical speculation, which only goes so far.
'findel
Well what are you looking for in Low Magic? Do you want the exact same game just without giving people magic items, or do you want something that actually plays at a lower power curve as well?I was looking for something where magic is special. I love pathfinder, but I would also like to try a campaign where you don't just go to a shop and buy a +2 trident of elemental bane when every you want one. Then sell it because it a couple of levels it is no longer that great.
I may not have been specific enough.
I would prefer something that is still in print/production. So I/we can get the materials and adventures fairly easily.
I may not have been specific enough.
I would prefer something that is still in print/production. So I/we can get the materials and adventures fairly easily.
Becoming Heroes
Dungeon World
Lady Blackbird
The first 2 made there debut at this years Gencon.
Yes. I was exaggerating due to some frustration. It is the attitude that magic items are just another tool nothing really special about it.
Aren't they?
Beyond that however -- if you simply stay away from certain monsters low magic can work just fine -- I wish I still had the link but I once ran the numbers for both low magic and high magic, basic minimums (for save throws) and basic maximums and all the numbers came out evenly for the PC classes. The key will be in thinking about what monsters are used when, and keeping an eye on special material weapons.
In a low magic mainly humanoid campaign the armor as DR rules work well too.
This...100% agreement from me.I'd personally go with E6 (i.e. the variant Pathfinder or D&D where you plateau in power starting at level 6).
Any game with cosmic power levels (like level 20 wizards in D&D) is going to make magic items seem a tad less special.
No not at all.
to Quote myself from another thread:
OK this may have been brought up earlier but this seems like a good venue for what I want to say.Post#1: "I want a low magic game"; "I want to get rid of the bog down of high level players turns being on the long side"; or similar
Post #2: Just play E6 it magically fixes everything.
[rant incoming] No, in my opinion all E6 does is typify avoidance ostrich with their head buried in the sand behavior when it comes to addressing the short comings of the system. To say well for not quite 1/3 of the levels in the core book the game is fine and after that... well that's hard to deal with so just don't play it and everything will be OK is a cop out.[/rant]
And, most importantly, the OP asked for OTHER GAME SYSTEM OPTIONS.
Thx guys!
I will try to check a few of these out this weekend.
Earthdawn might also work, and is in print.
You have few magic items, but the ones you do become more powerful as you invest in your connection as well.
The world itself has post traumatic stress disorder after hundreds of years of living through a widespread invasion of other worldly horrors.
And, most importantly, the OP asked for OTHER GAME SYSTEM OPTIONS.
To be fair, the OP asked for a system that works better (than RaW PFRPG). E6 isn't quite RaW PFRPG.
Also, the OP mentioned to be looking for something better because "Everyone seems to feel that Pathfinder is not appropriate for a lower rate of magic items", whereas it wasn't clear whether he included himself (herself?) in "everyone" and we didn't know what he felt.
That being said, I agree that one might be looking for less magic dependency without looking for low fantasy, and that E6 isn't the solution to everything. I believe it was worth mentioning however...
'findel
... Also, the OP mentioned to be looking for something better because "Everyone seems to feel that Pathfinder is not appropriate for a lower rate of magic items", whereas it wasn't clear whether he included himself (herself?) in "everyone" and we didn't know what he felt...
I am not always the greatest at evaluating what rule changes would still be playable and enjoyable. So I started a thread in houserules trying to come up with a way to reduce the number of magic items in the game. I've also seen at least 4 other threads on nearly the same topic. About 90% of the responses in all those threads are how you can't do it without having to completely rewrite the whole spell, armor, save, crafting, and class ability systems.
In other words, you can't get there from here without virtually starting over.
I was willing to tweak with some house rules. But I do not have time nor inclination to make up a game system. So since everyone thought that PF is not appropriate, I'd see what they thought was.
I don't think having many magic items in Pathfinder would be a big deal. Take a look at the 4E inherent bonus rules as a guide line. Every 4 levels or so PCs add a +1 bonus to Saves, AC, attacks and damage. It actually ends up being more like very couple of levels, but you get some of the things at one level and some of the others at another. This bonus is presumed to be coming from a character's skill instead of a gear. What it boils down to is that 5th level character pretty much has the equivalent to a +1 weapon, +1 armor, and +1 cloak of protection. I find that character's tend to be overpowered anyhow, so being short on gear would probably make the game work better rather worse. It's pretty easy to scale the challenges down if your party is a little weak due to a lack of magic items. If you do like Pathfinder and want to use it, I'd just go for it without magic items- you can always lower a monster's attack bonus a little or make other tweaks to balance it out (like lowering save DC's by a point or two). It's easier in some ways to make the opposition less powerful than more powerful, so I don't see it being a big issue. The first 10 levels shouldn't be a problem at all, after that the lack of magic items will be more noticeable.
if you do want to hand out a couple of magic items you can always have them scale up as the character advances. So if a fighter gets a magic sword it might start off as a +1 sword, but then at higher level he might be able to discover/unlock new powers in the weapon, so that it becomes a +1 flame blade, and then a +2 flame blade etc. It's still the same weapon, but it scales up with him (Weapon's of Legacy Style). I've done this many times, and it has always worked quite well. I like it much better than the idea of selling off the old weapon and replacing it with an upgrade.
... Also, the OP mentioned to be looking for something better because "Everyone seems to feel that Pathfinder is not appropriate for a lower rate of magic items", whereas it wasn't clear whether he included himself (herself?) in "everyone" and we didn't know what he felt...I am not always the greatest at evaluating what rule changes would still be playable and enjoyable. So I started a thread in houserules trying to come up with a way to reduce the number of magic items in the game. I've also seen at least 4 other threads on nearly the same topic. About 90% of the responses in all those threads are how you can't do it without having to completely rewrite the whole spell, armor, save, crafting, and class ability systems.
In other words, you can't get there from here without virtually starting over.
I was willing to tweak with some house rules. But I do not have time nor inclination to make up a game system. So since everyone thought that PF is not appropriate, I'd see what they thought was.
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I may not have been specific enough.
I would prefer something that is still in print/production. So I/we can get the materials and adventures fairly easily.
One book, get the deluxe version, and you are all set - forever... In print really just means some company wants more of your money, not a better rule-set/game. I still stand by this suggestion.
{Not sure if this is the correct forum for this.}
Everyone seems to feel that Pathfinder is not appropriate for a lower rate of magic items. basically that it is not possible without a huge amount of work revising most of the rules, monsters, and classes.
Does anyone know of a system that will work better?
RuneQuest ... my players and I have really enjoyed it. It is designed as a low fantasy RPG.
In service,
Rich
www.drgames.org
Dungeon World is my new go to game for fantasy.
What's available right now is the Red Book, they call it that as an homage to D&D, since that's what they're trying to recapture. The PDF costs $5, and is very well written.
Even if you prefer a physical copy of a game, the PDF isn't a big deal, because most of the rules can be printed out, the basic Moves is 2 pages, most character sheets are 2 pages and the equipment list is 2-3 pages. So all you need at the table are 5 pages printed out, plus 2 more per player.
If you're interested in the game, there are some great conversations going on in various blogs and forums around the internet. The game is a ton of fun, plays very quick (you can do a medium sized dungeon in about 3-4 hours once every one is familiar with the rules and playstyle of the game).
The designers of the game are working on a longer version (currently the game only has levels 1-5), which should be out by mid 2012. You can get access to the Adventurer's Guild if you post a review or playtest of the game and e-mail them. That gives you access to more classes, levels and rules that are in development.
Also, the Midnight setting is fantastic, I love it. I've picked up used copies of the game for about $8 for the large hardcover, and $3-5 for the various softcovers. Plus they're available in PDF form for reasonable prices too.
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Warhammer Fantasy roleplay (the best fantasy setting IMO). I'm not 100% sure on 3rd editions but 1st and 2nd editions magic items are pretty rare and legendary.
Savage Worlds doesn't really rely on magic items.
Palladium Fantasy there are some magic items but not dependent on them like Pathfinder.
Warhammer Fantasy roleplay (the best fantasy setting IMO). I'm not 100% sure on 3rd editions but 1st and 2nd editions magic items are pretty rare and legendary.
Savage Worlds doesn't really rely on magic items.
Palladium Fantasy there are some magic items but not dependent on them like Pathfinder.
Warhammer 3rd Ed. is also reasonably low magic. There do seem to be more magic items than 1st & 2nd Ed. It is also much, much easier and less lethal to level as a wizard.
@Bluenose - I didn't know that RQ was technically out of print; I just picked up five brand new books from Mongoose for its 2nd Ed.
Did the license revert to Chaosium?
Interestingly, the 2nd Ed. focuses on the followers of the Invisible God as they "myth bust."
It was one of the "big secrets" in the early 90s, and Greg Stafford let out pieces in dribs and drabs at conventions and in on-line forums back when Avalon Hill (AH) did their release.
I don't think that either AH or Greg were happy with the arrangement in the end. I remember Jack Dott talking about how fanatical the RQ base was. AH basically viewed RQ as a board game with some detailed individual units; similar to Harnworld or the original Chainmail from TSR. Chaosium saw the huge distribution network that AH had as highly desirable, and AH wanted to move into the burgeoning RPG play-space. (AH had previously released Powers & Perils, but it never really took off in the super-saturated RPG market of the day.)
In service,
Hey all, I'm looking at maybe going with RQ II or BRP for a dark fantasy low magic set of adventures vaguely modeled after The Black Company.
Which do you prefer and why? Are there really many differences between RQ II and BRP?
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Hey all, I'm looking at maybe going with RQ II or BRP for a dark fantasy low magic set of adventures vaguely modeled after The Black Company.
Which do you prefer and why? Are there really many differences between RQ II and BRP?
There is the Black Company D20 book which does a good job of capturing the low magic setting.
{Not sure if this is the correct forum for this.}
Everyone seems to feel that Pathfinder is not appropriate for a lower rate of magic items. basically that it is not possible without a huge amount of work revising most of the rules, monsters, and classes.
Does anyone know of a system that will work better?
funnily enough:Ars magica 2 edition lots of personal power magic , but little in the way of magic items (from what I remember). It is not d20 though.
I hear Iron Heroes may work in that vein.
I have no idea how the FATE system (dresden files) handles gear issues
Or go the Indy game route, to tout my amigos game Becoming Heroes
The Apocalypse World hack Dungeon World
Modify the 18 pages long game Lady Blackbird to take out the magic spaceships and being able to breathe the aether land lock it to one planet.
I second Iron Heroes.
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Hey all, I'm looking at maybe going with RQ II or BRP for a dark fantasy low magic set of adventures vaguely modeled after The Black Company.
Which do you prefer and why? Are there really many differences between RQ II and BRP?
Runequest (and I mostly played the AH Deluxe version) involves MANY amputations and is FAR deadlier than stock standard BRP. So I would say it depends on the feel of the game you want. I would, due to much less complexity, gravitate towards Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1e.
Having said that I like RQ warts and all a lot.
S.
PS: Just thought that Agone is worth a look also - one book again is all that will be needed.
Hey all, I'm looking at maybe going with RQ II or BRP for a dark fantasy low magic set of adventures vaguely modeled after The Black Company.
Which do you prefer and why? Are there really many differences between RQ II and BRP?
Runequest (and I mostly played the AH Deluxe version) involves MANY amputations and is FAR deadlier than stock standard BRP. So I would say it depends on the feel of the game you want. I would, due to much less complexity, gravitate towards Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1e.
Having said that I like RQ warts and all a lot.
S.
PS: Just thought that Agone is worth a look also - one book again is all that will be needed.
I'm kind of diggin' the really lethal idea... but I can't figure out which edition of the blasted game to go for - Rune Quest has like 8 iterations.
There is the Black Company D20 book which does a good job of capturing the low magic setting.Hey all, I'm looking at maybe going with RQ II or BRP for a dark fantasy low magic set of adventures vaguely modeled after The Black Company.
Which do you prefer and why? Are there really many differences between RQ II and BRP?
I've not played it but I've heard really good things about this book.
Game works just fine with low magic items, up to about L12.
We've had a few campaigns that went that far and didn't have the wheels fall off the cart, although it takes some work on behalf of the GM to plan encounters accordingly.
Dont give them low magic and then attack them with payloads of magical creatures that require said magic to defeat for example.
It really isn't that difficult.
What is important is not handwaving spell acquisition for Wizards for example, and ensuring that bigger spells are jealously guarded secrets that may require more than just a handful of gold and a confident swagger to acquire. Especially don't go down the 'you know all the spells in the game' handwave.
Especially don't go down the 'you know all the spells in the game' handwave.
People do that? Wow.
People do that? Wow.
Far too many for my liking.
Seems that quite often the complaints about broken Wizards/melee discrepancies has come back to this sort of guff going on.
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I'm kind of diggin' the really lethal idea... but I can't figure out which edition of the blasted game to go for - Rune Quest has like 8 iterations.Hey all, I'm looking at maybe going with RQ II or BRP for a dark fantasy low magic set of adventures vaguely modeled after The Black Company.
Which do you prefer and why? Are there really many differences between RQ II and BRP?
Runequest (and I mostly played the AH Deluxe version) involves MANY amputations and is FAR deadlier than stock standard BRP. So I would say it depends on the feel of the game you want. I would, due to much less complexity, gravitate towards Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1e.
Having said that I like RQ warts and all a lot.
S.
PS: Just thought that Agone is worth a look also - one book again is all that will be needed.
Which version is a can of worms indeed - just like the D&D-wars. I like the Avalon Hill Deluxe Softcover Version (1993 I believe) - because (a) one book, (b) contains all the errata, and (c) you can find it cheap (if you don't want mint).
Many hardcore Runequesters would suggest that AH buggered up the setting too much. I use my own settings so that was never an issue for me. RQ is more number crunching than BRP for sure, but once people get use to it the 'realism' I think is worth it.
S.
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People do that? Wow.Far too many for my liking.
Seems that quite often the complaints about broken Wizards/melee discrepancies has come back to this sort of guff going on.
Don't forget spellbook pagecount limits as another balancing factor. Those traveling spellbooks fill up quick. Spell preparation, if run RAW, can be a major inconvenience for the Wizard or Cleric who thinks they'll just put the world in an arm-lock today.
My group played a game from level 3 to 15, we all ended up agreeing that the cracks in the system, including the dreaded melee-caster gap and the xmas tree effect, didn't start to show until after lv 12. It was right around level 13 that it started feeling more like sci fi or superheroes than fantasy. I decided that the level cap in my games from here on out is 12 unless I specifically intend to run something that's over the top or epic-feeling. 13+ is for actual demigods.
One thing you could do is just make the minor magic items not have a magic flavor. Make them all mechanical, alchemical, or just finely wrought. Potions of cure light are just alchemical items, +1 and +2 swords are just well-forged, not magical. Maybe even +1 Flaming swords are just powered by alchemist's fire and need a refuel every 1d4 battles?
In addition, prior to the acquisition of 7th level spells, I've noticed that the extreme world shaking stuff still feels special and dangerous. Scrying takes hours. Teleports risk injury or death, and have a limited range. And 9th-12th level casters can only try that stuff a few times a day and have to lose their game-breaking combat spells if they want to prepare the game-breaking utility spells. Overland travel is still needed if the mage has never seen the destination before. Alarm and Invisibility spells will still be common, but flying and teleporting will not.
Personally, I've toyed with the idea of E10 or E12 for my Eberron game.
For the OP, Dragon Age by Green Ronin is specifically designed to be gritter and lower on magic, both spells and items. In the setting, magic is dangerous, kept in check by Templar knights who fear and control mages, and magic is not capable at all of doing some of the game breaking effects of D20, like teleporting, flight, etc. The magic item trade is similarly controlled by the Templars and the dominant religion of the setting, and in a 20 level system, you're not really expected to get more than one magic sword and a couple potions until the high single digits.
The new HackMaster game is very low magic. It is set in the Kingdoms of Kalamar world of Tellene. You might get to level 10 before you will see your first +1 sword.
Iron Heroes is good, but it has a number of balance issues of its own, due to a lack of play-testing. I feel like those issues should have been able to have been overcome, but I haven't seen good fixes (e.g. making the Armiger suck less).
On the whole, I really like the feel of Iron Heroes. Same goes for Midnight. I just don't really feel like trying to update Midnight/IH to PF... If someone else were to do it, on the other hand ;)
Warhammer 2nd ed. and Pathfinder being run by the DM and not what people here on the boards say about how you "must" run it. Warhammer came right out and said the very same thing in it's rule book. GM runs the game.Period.
Of COURSE you can run PF with low/no magic items. It's a perfectly solid system and the interaction of feats and skills is surprisingly effective. If you were going to run a published scenario in a magic-light world you'd have to spend time re-statting the monsters to take into account the lower power of characters without magic items, but it's hardly game breaking. Challenge ranks of monsters are calculated (or, as I often think, wildly guessed) on the assumption of a certain amount of magic items on the party, so you'd have to tinker with CRs and experience awards. But these are 'around the edges' changes, they're not the least bit game breaking. I think the game runs BETTER with less magic because of some of the runaway power inflation that creative players can engineer given a relatively free rein.
Seconding the new HackMaster and HackMaster Basic. Seconding it real hard.
The system itself is a joy; it's set-up to be truly challenging and exciting as you get to savor the gritty hardships that low-level characters *should* experience while they struggle to make a name for themselves - and struggle to simply survive. The default setting is the Kingdoms of Kalamar, like griffonwing said, which has been wonderfully detailed through the years since 2nd Ed AD&D. The basic idea is a relatively realistic medieval world with a fair deal of classic fantasy and magic, but far from the point in other settings where Epic-Level named characters are already having all the fun and bumping into the PCs every week. There's no magic item shop on the next corner to pawn all the crappy +1 short swords those bandits had. Like griffonwing said above, even a low power magic item is a *treasure* to be truly grateful for. HackMaster is delightfully old-school in spirit. There's a good number of very well-written adventures available, and lots of older still-relevant modules and setting sourcebooks, too, at the Kenzer site (the Hacklopedia of Beasts is a gem). My group played HackMaster Basic when it came out, and I'm excited to give the new version's Player's Handbook some serious mileage.
Also, I should second the Midnight campaign setting that Rite Publishing mentioned above. If you're looking for a low-magic-item campaign to the point that magic is tyrannically outlawed and where the evil priests who dominate the subjugated masses can home-in on your rebel PC's +1 dagger and sacrifice you to their dark god for simply having it (or even a mundane one, for that matter), then Midnight would be right up your alley. I own the whole Midnight line, and it was a truly captivating setting, if a bit of a hard sell for players who like having something of a situational upper-hand.
Good luck finding the game you're looking for! :)
Pathfinder e6-7- say when...
Just watch the monsters CR, Damage Reduction and immunities(anything over 5 is tricky, total immunity should not exist ).
Warhammer 2ed - :)
I've only read Dragon Age, and it has a low magic feel to it.
A Song of Ice and Fire RPG, even if you are not a fan of the Game of Throne setting, would do quite well for low fantasy.
Take a look at the free Quick Start Rules
If you can find it, I would recommend The IRON HEROES rpg. It is a d20/3.5 variant players handbook that Mike Mearls did many moons ago before he left Malhavioc for WOTC.
It basically made low magic classes that focused on weapons and weapon abilities to compensate for a lack of magic. Feats were numerous (Weapon specialization was 10 stacking feats!) and classes had lots of Hit Points and even relatively higher BAB as well.
The goal was to have non-magic enchanced characters kick ass with standard OGL monsters. SO you could still use Pathfinder/ogl beasties but take names.
After Mearls went to WOTC, Firey Dragon bought the rights and offerred a revised version in PDF. I have both the original hardback (with LOTS of erratta) and the revised PDF.