My players seem to get it without larping or vr simulators. I describe what they see, they push for more or really examine something/someone.
When I play, I use whatever seems appropriate and milk those skill for all they are worth. "Yeah he said that, but I'll roll a sense motive... 17".
I treat sensing skills a lot like knowledge. To explain, a character asks about defences of a town, is near a gate trying to get into zombie-town. he makes a knowledge engineering, he said he was making that check, gets a great roll. I explain height, age of construction, probably thickness. The zombies are not going anywhere because the portcullis is down. In fact, this portcullis (dm makes some rolls) is of brilliant construction and made by one of the finest Chelaxian builders, no doubt on loan to provincial Isger, his name was *insert name*. You recognise his work, you respect its superior craftsmanship.
Now if he didn't have that engineering knowledge, he'd just see a wall a gate, an obstruction. Perception and sense motive can give a lot, I want them to use those skills if they have them. Let them roam, they will define their own play style and what checks they commonly make.
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Course, in my games there is a real chance players can be caught surprised.
So can mine. My turncoat NPC revealing the duke they had been working with for the past few weeks was part of the enemy cabal caught them completely unawares. And they are surprised every time they fail their Perception/Sense Motive checks to notice combat about to begin.
If you have access to the Shackled City campaign, look up the Tax Riot encounter. Classic example of Sense Motive to realize trouble is brewing.
Combat, it has begun.
Wait, what?
The seduction attempt would be a Bluff, making Sense Motive automatic. Obviously that doesn't mean that if the PC passes he miraculously knows the barmaid is an assassin. But he might recognize that she's not on the level, or that she's deliberately attempting to seduce him rather than being legitimately interested in him. What he does with that knowledge is up to him. On the other hand, if an NPC wasn't actively trying to trick the PC and he wanted to 'get a feel' for a character or situation, he would have to declare a Sense Motive attempt.
If you want to run a game where players have to narrate everything they do in terms of how much attention they pay to their surroundings, that's your business (I don't agree, but that's my business). But those are your house rules, and this was a question in the Rules forum (as opposed to Advice or Suggestions/House Rules).
So, in other words, your players must make their "sense motive" rolls on you as the GM, in order for their characters to get use of their skills? You are aware that no real life gamer has more than likely +3 in such skills, and no more than 12-13 at best in relevant "stat". And as such cannot hope to truly emulate a character with +20 in the skill and 20+ in the relevant stat? This is kinda why the rules explicitly makes opposed rolls reactive.
Also, I have not once said that they get any free rolls. I have consistently stated that in order to DO subterfuge, you need subterfuge skills. And yes, your perception CAN tell if someone is behind a counter, even a wall, at a penalty.
And I don't think you fully grasp the nonsensical godlike level of attention someone with more than +20 perception possess. He automatically overhears all conversations, even if he is distracted, he casually can tell what is whispered across the room, he cannot fail to spot moving invisible creatures, and smell a flower from across the street. How is it fair to say that this creature of legendary prowess does not NOTICE a bandit coming from the rear? He can easily hear him, smell him, feel his footsteps, and likely SEE him in the reflection in the eyes of someone sitting across from him.
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I'm on the Sense Motive wagon as well, and I see it as a matter of parity.
NPC waiting in the bushes to ambush the PC. PC gets a Perception check, opposed by Stealth, and if they fail they cannot act in the surprise round.
NPC is feigning conversation in order to sucker punch the PC. PC gets a Sense Motive check, opposed by Bluff, and if they fail they cannot act in the surprise round.
Seems perfectly equivalent to me.
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I'm on the Sense Motive wagon as well, and I see it as a matter of parity.
NPC waiting in the bushes to ambush the PC. PC gets a Perception check, opposed by Stealth, and if they fail they cannot act in the surprise round.
NPC is feigning conversation in order to sucker punch the PC. PC gets a Sense Motive check, opposed by Bluff, and if they fail they cannot act in the surprise round.
Seems perfectly equivalent to me.
I too am in this boat.
Also, what is good for the goose...
Players wanting to start combat like that themselves will have to roll a bluff check vs the NPC sense motive to pull it off. I do not give the player characters free surprise rounds for acting randomly.
I'm on the Sense Motive wagon as well, and I see it as a matter of parity.
NPC waiting in the bushes to ambush the PC. PC gets a Perception check, opposed by Stealth, and if they fail they cannot act in the surprise round.
NPC is feigning conversation in order to sucker punch the PC. PC gets a Sense Motive check, opposed by Bluff, and if they fail they cannot act in the surprise round.
Seems perfectly equivalent to me.
I agree on the stealth opposed by perception. No argument there. However, earlier on in the thread, the DM telling the pc to roll sense motive pretty much gives it away if anything is up. One of the eays I'd run it was stated in an earlier post. Namely, is the pc paying attention etc. The other thing would be the -5 stated by Tygrim. Of course, other factors come into play such as how drunk is the pc when the interaction occurs. Another thing would be the npc's diplomacy check. The higher the result, the more easy-going is the impression that npc portrays and the better the two of you get along. I have only seen one encounter which had all those penalties together. Excessive? I admit it may be. Then again, thats a whole list of factors that causes individuals to lower their guard. Especially if all their powers combine, they get Captain Surprise.
Add me to this list as well. Characters get the rolls based on circumstances (including of which, is how attentive that character is described in the roleplay.) Whether a player calls a roll or not is irrelevant, the roll still happens because that's what's happening in the story.
I don't like to think of roleplaying as playing a game, I'd rather think of it as being other people in a different world. Having to press the 'sense motive' or the 'search' or the 'perception' buttons all the time takes away the magic for me. I'm no longer 'Tsuneh the Onispawn mercenary-turned-adventurer', I'm just sitting at a table rolling dice on his account.
So you say they always get the rolls, but you don't like asking for the rolls? ... Do you like making the rolls? ... Surely that takes you out of the scene and ruins immersion for you?
Making checks is a part of playing the character, you can describe them and then make it, or make it then describe. Now a lot of checks are reactive in some circumstances, you make your percep to their stealth, but these checks aren't purely reactive--you can choose to make a perception to get more information, clearer information. Or don't you run it that way?
There are no buttons to press here, that doesn't really make much sense. There are games like boot hill that have no mechanics for bluff/sense motive/diplomacy, it is all done at the table and you say what you wish. Now I don't quite go for that, although it was fun to try.
This seems a little easy to me. Like an easy difficulty setting, no matter what is tried against the pcs, no matter how quick or that there isn't much time to pick up something, they can make a check. To that I'd say it is indeed possible they could make a check, but sometimes the situation just doesn't work. If a player does or says something so offensive that someone immediately goes hostile, and they are right there, not drawing a sword, not casting a spell, nothing long, just start swinging. That seems like really clear surprise.
If a player said before the comment, yeah I'm really paying attention to this guy, to see how this goes as I chat to him, yeah, he'd get a sense motive. But to just hand those out for a split second thing, sense motive on crowds or people for me takes more time, they've got to get a feel. If there is no chance to feel, all you can feel is the punch, it's surprise, and go from there.
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If a player said before the comment, yeah I'm really paying attention to this guy, to see how this goes as I chat to him, yeah, he'd get a sense motive. But to just hand those out for a split second thing, sense motive on crowds or people for me takes more time, they've got to get a feel. If there is no chance to feel, all you can feel is the punch, it's surprise, and go from there.
Does it work both ways? If a PC just suddenly decides to punch an NPC that NPC doesn't get a Sense Motive because you as the GM wasn't "paying attention"?
So, in other words, your players must make their "sense motive" rolls on you as the GM, in order for their characters to get use of their skills? You are aware that no real life gamer has more than likely +3 in such skills, and no more than 12-13 at best in relevant "stat". And as such cannot hope to truly emulate a character with +20 in the skill and 20+ in the relevant stat? This is kinda why the rules explicitly makes opposed rolls reactive.
Also, I have not once said that they get any free rolls. I have consistently stated that in order to DO subterfuge, you need subterfuge skills. And yes, your perception CAN tell if someone is behind a counter, even a wall, at a penalty.
And I don't think you fully grasp the nonsensical godlike level of attention someone with more than +20 perception possess. He automatically overhears all conversations, even if he is distracted, he casually can tell what is whispered across the room, he cannot fail to spot moving invisible creatures, and smell a flower from across the street. How is it fair to say that this creature of legendary prowess does not NOTICE a bandit coming from the rear? He can easily hear him, smell him, feel his footsteps, and likely SEE him in the reflection in the eyes of someone sitting across from him.
Are we talking mortals or demi-gods here?
This may be one of the moments where someone is talking about typical pcs, and someone else is saying of course my high level character always picks things up, without trying.
Let's go through it.
"If someone had a +20 to perception...even if he is distracted, he casually can tell what is whispered across the room,"
Depends on the background noise and the size of the room. How many people are whispering, which one is he most listening to? Is he doing something else entirely?
"he cannot fail to spot moving invisible creatures"
Are they moving invisible with their own stealth? It's never so simple as an instant success. How dark is the room?
"and smell a flower from across the street"
Feudal messy street could easily swallow the scent of that flower. Again no instant wins here, there is a lot in play, and was he smelling for the flower? Was he trying to pick it up? Was he using his senses on something else?
"How is it fair to say that this creature of legendary prowess does not NOTICE a bandit coming from the rear? He can easily hear him, smell him, feel his footsteps"
Ahhh, your character is what you are talking about. Because most characters aren't legendary except after years of being played. It is far more likely that a character won't be legendary or around level 17-20. And as such can miss a lot. Don't forget the skill of the bandit comes into play, but yes, stealth is opposed with perception, but there are a lot of problems with just relying on your check to save a character, and not saying how you apply the check, or that you have the check readied and are in a good position.
"and likely SEE him in the reflection in the eyes of someone sitting across from him."
They still have to focus their attention. Someone couldn't possibly see the reflection of someone behind them, in someone else's eyes, if they weren't paying attention, using the eye (or glass trick held up to see things behind me) glance deliberately. Can they pull that off if they are doing something else with their attention? Don't think so. You can caps it, but it doesn't make it so, or even likely. What if you are savouring a drink and the chance to relax and not at all looking in the eyes of the party member across from you?
If a player said before the comment, yeah I'm really paying attention to this guy, to see how this goes as I chat to him, yeah, he'd get a sense motive. But to just hand those out for a split second thing, sense motive on crowds or people for me takes more time, they've got to get a feel. If there is no chance to feel, all you can feel is the punch, it's surprise, and go from there.Does it work both ways? If a PC just suddenly decides to punch an NPC that NPC doesn't get a Sense Motive because you as the GM wasn't "paying attention"?
Yeah, absolutely. if they are distracted or not paying attention, if it is so fast it sounds like surprise, it's surprise.
Example of surprise, speed is crucial, so is what the npcs is doing. Marauder fighter wanders down the street, weapon out, steps into small shop and attacks cashier with reach polearm. Cashier is looking down at the ledger, says "hello just a moment" as the player steps in. Player attacks. Surprise.
His attention was elsewhere, he heard the person enter, but didn't make a sense motive or a perception (attention was on the book). Weapon wasn't drawn, so lose those few moments to suss it all out, not watching door so didn't see the threat, heard someone not using stealth enter, then got attacked.
Readied actions could also get a one-up. E.g. I ready an unarmed attack to biff any performing bards that come up and bother me.
Bard steps up singing... badly.
Biff!
Because the bard did not approach cautiously, and was doing something else.
Sometimes it is bluff, sometimes it is stealth, and sometimes it is not.
Both of the combatants are aware of eachother. Combat initiates as normal.
One isn't aware the other is a combatant.
One isn't aware the other is a combatant.
It only matters if the rules are aware if somebody is a combatant. Initiative is almost always much more cut and dry than the initiative threads on here make it out to be. You want to punch somebody? Let's look what it takes to do that.
Would you agree the punch in the OP would require an attack roll? I hope so since it does. The "Attack Roll" section is part of "Combat Statistics" which states:
This section summarizes the statistics that determine success in combat, then details how to use them.
So it looks like you need to be in combat to make a punch. This is reflected in other sections in the rules as well. What happens at the start of combat?
1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
Unless you are making the argument that the person getting punched is not a combatant, the initiative rules are clear. Everybody gets to roll initiative and since everybody in this example is aware of each other, nobody gets a surprise round. The only exception to this is an ability like the diviner's letting them act in the surprise round every combat.
Unless you are making the argument that the person getting punched is not a combatant, the initiative rules are clear. Everybody gets to roll initiative and since everybody in this example is aware of each other, nobody gets a surprise round
There is "I'm aware someone exists" and there is "I'm aware someone is going to try to hurt me" The Dm determines awareness, so if he wants to reasonably assume that the intent is to determine the awareness not only OF a foe but awareness of your foe AS a foe they can.
If you wanna try something that doesn't require a lot of skill checks, and I feel simplifies the whole thing try this: Does the player have any ranks in Sense Motive? If he/she does, roll initiative as normal, as the character sees the body language change; if no ranks are on the character, have an initiative roll but with a -4 to the check, like a reverse Improved Initiative (Delayed Initiative?). If the character doesn't have any ranks in Sense Motive, they aren't used to looking for those particular cues from people, and odds are low they would spot the hit before it, well, hit, though it is still possible, depending on their reflexes.
Otherwise it is a roll-fest with Perception, Sense Motive, and Initiative with the possibility of surprise round thrown in for fun.
There is "I'm aware someone exists" and there is "I'm aware someone is going to try to hurt me" The Dm determines awareness, so if he wants to reasonably assume that the intent is to determine the awareness not only OF a foe but awareness of your foe AS a foe they can.
I understand your argument. And that's a great house rule if it makes sense for your group. It's not how initiative works though.
If you want a rational, real world explanation of why initiative works this way, try these out:
1) Somebody punching or attacking in any way will by default be moving. Even if somebody walks around with a crossbow aimed at people's faces, he will be moving his finger to shoot. Initiative allows characters to act on this movement.
2) Somebody casting a spell has to concentrate on casting the spell to do so. Obviously any spell components needed will trigger a spell. Again, initiative allows somebody to notice this concentration. The rules even allow for characters to notice somebody casting a spell using still/silent/eschew if they are aware of the character already, though I think it's a good useful to allow still/silent/eschew spells to go off in a surprise round by default.
Of course, if you want a game mechanics reason it works this way, look no further than fairness and fun. What's good for the PCs is good for the NPCs. What if PCs tried to go into every encounter diplomatically and all enemies went in guns blazing? You'd have a lot of dead PCs. Initiative allows even diplomatic characters to enter combat fairly by noticing the malicious intent of their opponents.
Yes, the rules give no indication of RP ramifications for rolling higher in your initiative and choosing to kill the guy that didn't even punch you yet. That's up to you to figure out ;)
One isn't aware the other is a combatant.It only matters if the rules are aware if somebody is a combatant. Initiative is almost always much more cut and dry than the initiative threads on here make it out to be. You want to punch somebody? Let's look what it takes to do that.
Would you agree the punch in the OP would require an attack roll? I hope so since it does. The "Attack Roll" section is part of "Combat Statistics" which states:
This section summarizes the statistics that determine success in combat, then details how to use them.So it looks like you need to be in combat to make a punch. This is reflected in other sections in the rules as well. What happens at the start of combat?
Unless you are making the argument that the person getting punched is not a combatant, the initiative rules are clear. Everybody gets to roll initiative and since everybody in this example is aware of each other, nobody gets a surprise round. The only exception to this is an ability like the diviner's letting them act in the surprise round every combat.1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
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Exactly what I was going to say. If you are aware of the attacker, you get to roll initiative.
Yeah of course, initiative is pretty clear. But if you are not aware of the attacker, if you are not aware there is an attack, if you were just chatting over a cup of joe, it's surprise.
Gorbacz, again with the insults?
And Snorter, yeah, if you want to know someone's feelings, gauge their opinions, guess their next action, yeah, you have to make a sense motive on them. If they are hiding something, your character must stop and make a sense motive on that npc. You should be using your sense motive to get the most from scenes and not to miss a great deal. Some dms will put a lot into sense motive, allow you to find out a lot, others won't, or won't prepare for it.
Yeah of course, initiative is pretty clear. But if you are not aware of the attacker, if you are not aware there is an attack, if you were just chatting over a cup of joe, it's surprise.
Except initiative is exactly the mechanic to determine if you react quickly enough when he suddenly goes for his knife/gun/etc.
Yeah of course, initiative is pretty clear. But if you are not aware of the attacker, if you are not aware there is an attack, if you were just chatting over a cup of joe, it's surprise.
Check out the rules on surprise and initiative again. What you are saying sounds like a house rule to me. Since this is the rules forum, I assume the OP wanted to know the strict rules interpretation and they do not reflect any of the suggestions for sense motive, bluffing, etc. for initiative. They stop at perception and awareness--not if you are aware they are going to attack you, if you are aware that they are even present.
If you think there is another way to interpret the rules or that they aren't clear, there's always the FAQ button.
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Yeah, I'm not certain that the rules even begin to address this, so a RAW argument isn't going to carry a lot of weight with me, personally.
Determine which characters are aware of their opponents.
We can get pedantic on this if you wish. There are many possible ways to interpret this sentence.
For example, you're in a forest and you're AWARE that bandits exist. Are ambushes now impossible? Because you are, indeed, aware of your opponents. You don't know their exact location, nor that you'll encounter any on this particular day, but you do know they're out there and you are reasonably going to be on the look out for them. Right?
On the other hand, we could focus on the word 'opponent'. Are you aware that someone is an opponent until they attack you? They were a friend just a moment ago, so where (outside of precognition) did you gain this particular awareness?
Finally, I fail to see the mechanical difference between someone physically stealthed and socially stealthed. You don't make initiative checks when you go to hug your grandma. If she's holding a knife behind her back, she's going to get a surprise round.
Anything else strains one's sense of believably.
If they draw it is very simple, yeah they are making an offensive action in pulling out the weapon. Then they are going to hurt you with it.
But the original thread starting question isn't about drawing a weapon, it is about an unarmed attack mid-conversation on an oblivious pc. Which seems very clearly surprise. It was a response to the pc's acts.
"Yeah, I'm not certain that the rules even begin to address this, so a RAW argument isn't going to carry a lot of weight with me, personally."
Yeah Mcbobo, the base rules are just that, the rules for the typical situations. People lunging wildly at the Pope for no apparent reason with little give-away is something entirely up to the dm, whether sense motive, whether flat initiative, checks on penalties, or surprise.
GRANDMA WINS!
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And Snorter, yeah, if you want to know someone's feelings, gauge their opinions, guess their next action, yeah, you have to make a sense motive on them. If they are hiding something, your character must stop and make a sense motive on that npc. You should be using your sense motive to get the most from scenes and not to miss a great deal. Some dms will put a lot into sense motive, allow you to find out a lot, others won't, or won't prepare for it.
There's a few threads on the go on similar subjects, and they do reappear regularly enough that I do wonder;
Do those GMs who insist on their players making specific requests, for specific skills at specific moments, actually have jobs, families, etc?
I can only assume they're unemployed, still at school, or have a giant trust fund, so they can play for 16 hours a day, and afford the time to waste half the session on the following;
"The butler steps forward, and tells you 'I have an important message..'..."
"Can I have a roll?"
<roll>
...<wait for player to find his skill bonus>...
"I got 16, do I notice anything?"
"No. As he was saying, I have an important message.."
"What about me? Can I have a roll?"
<roll>
...<wait for player to find his skill bonus>...
"I got 17, do I notice anything?"
"No. As I was saying, I have an important message.."
"What about me? Can I have a roll?"
<roll>
...<wait for player to find his skill bonus>...
"I got 14, do I notice anything?
"No."
"Are you sure?"
"Yes"
"Dude, I already rolled 16 and didn't get anything."
"Oh, I wasn't listening."
"As I was saying, I have an important message.."
"What about me? Can I have a roll?"
<roll>
...<wait for player to find his skill bonus>...
"I got 18, do I notice anything?"
"No. As I was saying, I have an important message.."
"What about me? Can I have a roll?"
<roll>
...<wait for player to find his skill bonus>...
"I got 13, do I notice anything?"
"No."
"Are you sure?"
"Yes"
"Dude, I already rolled 16 and didn't get anything."
"Oh, I wasn't listening."
"As I was saying, I have an important message....."
Yeah, I'm not certain that the rules even begin to address this, so a RAW argument isn't going to carry a lot of weight with me, personally.
I quoted them. They address it. What you are really saying is that you don't like the rules so you would change them. ;)
Anything else strains one's sense of believably.
In a world where you can fall 10 miles and walk away with only 20d6 damage? Where a ranger's racism makes him better able to combat certain foes? Where a paladin can look at you and know if you are evil, whatever that means? Where elves, dragons, and all manner of beasts exist? I'll allow this one concession to help my combats start faster. Just rolling initiative takes long enough, let alone throwing in sense motive rolls for every single character.
Yeah Mcbobo, the base rules are just that, the rules for the typical situations. People lunging wildly at the Pope for no apparent reason with little give-away is something entirely up to the dm, whether sense motive, whether flat initiative, checks on penalties, or surprise.
A GM can modify the rules. I'm not going to argue against rule zero. I'm just pointing out how initiative and surprise are supposed to work.
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I'm just pointing out how initiative and surprise are supposed to work.
What's your evidence of your insight into the intent of the initiative system? You're ignoring my points while quoting my posts, and going back to this old drum - so, what is it? How do you know that 'surprised via lack of visual acuity' is the only form of surprise? How do you KNOW that psychology plays absolutely no role in initiative?
I removed some spam.
I'm just pointing out how initiative and surprise are supposed to work.What's your evidence of your insight into the intent of the initiative system? You're ignoring my points while quoting my posts, and going back to this old drum - so, what is it? How do you know that 'surprised via lack of visual acuity' is the only form of surprise? How do you KNOW that psychology plays absolutely no role in initiative?
Reeeaaally? OK, what determines if a CHARACTER, and I repeat _CHARACTER_, not PLAYER, is aware of something, if not skill checks opposed by other skill checks?
A character with certain bonuses _CANNOT_ by the rules fail to notice certain things. And when you have visual acuity on someone, you are able to react. Even allowing the Bluff VS Sense Motive to get one is a HUGE benefit, as everyone knows, past a certain level, you can win a fight by winning initiative, and it is something I would NEVER allow in my games.
I would go so far as saying that a GM who does this to a player is pulling a "d*ck move", as another thread discusses. It completely shifts balance, and is far worse than the people who dump charisma, then proceed to play like they have all the swagger and confidence in the world. Disregard rules, obtain victory through "RP".
Disclaimer: I am sorry for my wordiness. It is my weakness. Also, let me be clear. I have bent initiative rules on more than one occasion in my home games. Doesn't mean I don't acknowledge my bending ;)
What's your evidence of your insight into the intent of the initiative system? You're ignoring my points while quoting my posts, and going back to this old drum - so, what is it? How do you know that 'surprised via lack of visual acuity' is the only form of surprise? How do you KNOW that psychology plays absolutely no role in initiative?
Sorry, I don't want it to seem like I'm ignoring your points. I'm trying to strictly interpret the rules rather than applying real world logic to them; maybe I'm also being devil's advocate because it's good to see both sides of a rules discussion.
The only key word used for determining surprise is "aware" and if it only said that I think it's clear Perception is the only thing that applies in all cases. The support you have is from this line under surprise:
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
It does mention other checks, but it doesn't mention which ones and when to apply them, nor give an example, effectively putting it all in the GM's hands. So what checks would it be?
If it's Sense Motive, it takes one minute or longer to use. If somebody sits down to have a drink with you and punches you after a minute has gone by, you have a chance of knowing it's coming. If, however, they say "Hey, how's it going, I PUNCH YOU NOW!" they get a surprise round. Yes, I'm aware both diplomacy and sense motive are loosely interpreted all the time.
In any case, since Sense Motive is supposed to be opposed by a bluff check, the puncher should have had to make one before the combat ever began. This takes one full round. I don't know why the bluff action and sense motive actions aren't the same amount of time, but it's irrelevant to this discussion since both would need to happen before combat begins according to RAW. The rules seem to be binary; you are either in combat or not in combat. There is no in-between phase where a series of skills are used.
There's another balance argument as well. Bluff can be used in combat to feint as a standard action denying your opponent his dex to AC. If we're saying Bluff can also be used out of combat as a free action to get a free standard action (surprise round), those two options don't really balance together. If you don't even need Bluff and this surprise is free simply because you were talking before but are now killing, that's even worse.
Using the ability to surprise people this way, is it also possible an entire group gets surprise round because they all agreed that after Bob the Rogue says "Rosebud" the killing would start? What would be the reason for a party to not do this every time they could?
Am I missing something (outside rule zero)? I can think of very few situations where a check other than perception would apply.
Situation:
PC has no reason to suspect NPC is peeved. They talk for a moment, then the NPC snaps and punches the PC.Mechanically, what should occur here? The PC perhaps gets a perception check to notice peeved body language? Assuming PC fails, the NPC gets a surprise round to attack, then it's initiative as normal?
Thanks
I would say sense motive instead to detect hidden hostility.
Mmm, I'd explain a little as to what is happening, what they are saying, perhaps there is a silence from one party, assuming they didn't immediately attack, I'd say the player can make a sense motive to learn more, or, is there another check you'd like to make? The player has control over their character after all.
They could take the conversation in a different direction, but if they don't want to make the sense motive (and I have known players to refuse and try something else) that attack might slip right in mid-sentence.
Another way someone could be surprised in game, is if they were a known outlaw by the authorities, the character didn't know they were a known outlaw and they walked past a halberdier guard while chatting to another party member, a guard who recognised them, but was not hostile till they passed near the halberd.
That guard may swipe at them as they pass, with real or subdual damage and shout "You are under arrest brigand! Stop in the name of the law."
PC: "errr, I think our crimes are known here."
That is something without a build-up that could be a surprise attack and then initiative. The guard has the halberd out, is on duty and sees a criminal just walk right past them. *thock of justice!*
Psychology, situation, context, attention, it all matters for how combat starts and whether it is a nice and even initiative roll, or not.
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I understand your argument. And that's a great house rule if it makes sense for your group. It's not how initiative works though.
Its not a house rule. Several monsters gain a surprise round by hiding in plain sight, such as the cloaker and the mimic.
Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
Several monsters gain a surprise round by hiding in plain sight, such as the cloaker and the mimic.
Those monsters get bonuses to disguise checks, not automatic surprise rounds. Disguise checks are opposed by Perception, and around we go ;)