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Fabled Workshop would like to invite you all to try out our first Beta book The Fundamental Book of Rogues.
Any feedback, opinions or suggestions are more than welcome and can be given at our site or in this thread.
The aim of this book is to address the problems with the rogue class that are seen by many (but admittedly not all) and to bring the class back into play without having to resort to the ninja alternative class.
Our website:Fabled Workshop
Download: The Fundamental Book of Rogues.
Thanks for your time and keep in mind as the book is beta it does not contain the entire finished product and has not undergone full editing yet. :)
Downloaded. I think this kind of supplement is a great idea, and I shall flip through it at once.
My initial impression is that I like most of the new talents very much, as well as some of the feats. I can definitely see myself using them. Not so much the alternative sneak attack rules, but that's because I dream fondly of seeing a sneak attack free rogue. If one happened to be added to this book as an alternative rogue class, I would be much pleased. As for the archetypes, I have to say I like the ideas of the Ruffian and Divine Assassin, but not so much the other ones.
As for actual playtesting, that'll have to wait until I have time.
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My initial impression is that I like most of the new talents very much, as well as some of the feats. I can definitely see myself using them. Not so much the alternative sneak attack rules, but that's because I dream fondly of seeing a sneak attack free rogue. If one happened to be added to this book as an alternative rogue class, I would be much pleased. As for the archetypes, I have to say I like the ideas of the Ruffian and Divine Assassin, but not so much the other ones.
As for actual playtesting, that'll have to wait until I have time.
Thanks for the feedback :)
There is plans to add a sneak attack free rogue archetype but i left it out of beta 1 because i wasn't sure how people would react to it and i wanted to see if people would prefer the Talented Thief archetype, which basically severely limits the sneak attack in favor of extra rogue talents.
I'm not looking so much for people to play test it (i admit that's unlikely and will be done by us before full release) but mainly looking for what people like and dislike along with peoples thoughts of what is overpowered/underpowered in the book :)
That said if anyone wishes to please feel free and i am more than happy to add them to the credited play testers
Once again thanks for the response it means a great deal :)
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First thought:
The watermarks are too dark.
I skimmed it, but I found the text hard to read. And that never helps.
If you're going to keep the page that dark, use white text.
Second thought: While you're including more options for the rogue, it doesn't look like its getting the power boost it needs.
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First thought:
The watermarks are too dark.
I skimmed it, but I found the text hard to read. And that never helps.
If you're going to keep the page that dark, use white text.
Second thought: While you're including more options for the rogue, it doesn't look like its getting the power boost it needs.
interesting, on my screen the words could be read easily but i guess not everyone's PC is the same. I will have to fade the background a bit to fix the problem. Thanks for mentioning it.
On your second thought, i think that many of the talents do increase the power of the rogue. Maybe not right up to fighter level but more than they are right now. If you are able to read it and have the time i would love to hear your thoughts on the books power balance once you have looked through it better :)
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Consider buying some books by LPJr or Rite Publishing. I've enjoyed their layout quite a bit. A nice border and offwhite background can do a lot!
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Consider buying some books by LPJr or Rite Publishing. I've enjoyed their layout quite a bit. A nice border and offwhite background can do a lot!
yer, i will have to take a look at others. I am a content/mechanics designer, not into any kind of art really but at the same time i don't want to rip off other peoples work. It will go on the list... the very long list :P
Maybe one day i will win some kind of lottery and then i can write content without having to worry about that stuff personally. Never know one day some other bigger 3pps might actually like my work heh.
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I refer you to this thread, where we're discussing the topic of design.
the thread didnt start out with that intention, but its basically turned into a dos and donts list for page design.
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I refer you to this thread, where we're discussing the topic of design.
the thread didnt start out with that intention, but its basically turned into a dos and donts list for page design.
thanks for the link mate :)
and i look forward to hearing your opinions dark_mistress
Great product planning on having it playtested this week. One question could the final version come in a printer friendly format possibly?
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I think a few need a bit more polish. I had a couple I had to reread a couple of times to understand. But there was a couple of things that really stood out I think needs to be looked at.
Hard to Kill (Ex): A rogue with this talent instantly drops prone and has her hp raised to 1 instead of dying when taking damage that would normally result in her death. This ends the current attack round against the rogue from her attacker. A rogue must have the Resiliency rogue talent before choosing this talent.
As written above to me it looks like the rogue flat can not die. Since it lists no limits on how often this ability can be used.
Stealthy (Ex) At 3rd level each day the Sneak gains 1 round for every level she possesses worth of enhanced stealth. When using this ability she gains a +2 to all stealth checks she makes. The rounds do not have to be consecutive but must be spent in 1 round increments. This ability replaces trap sense.
I don't see how this shouldn't just be a +2 all the time, unless I am missing something.
I have skimmed the feats so far. I will try and have more feedback later in the week.
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Great product planning on having it playtested this week. One question could the final version come in a printer friendly format possibly?
I will try my hardest to make the final version printer friendly or at the least release a second printer friendly copy :)
and thank you for the feedback dark_mistress.
I know some of the book needs rewording/polishing and those 2 errors you picked up are most appreciated and will be fixed :)
Thank you for your time and trouble :)
Here's my input so far the Two weapon talent should not need the prequisites.
The extra talent Archetype is probably going to end up a trap option with the lowered damage.
Increased Finesse i would make it allow dex on damage with finessable weapons instead and require weapon finesse as a prequisite.
And yeah the precisionist has a bit too much going for it since not only does it get bonus dice and dice size but can take extra sneak attack even earlier.
I mean if people really think the rogue is weak then the precisionist does help it out a lot...I just wrote up a quick character at lvl 20 with the precisionist in it and was able to deal on average 909 dmg / round in my build. So not badHere's my input so far the Two weapon talent should not need the prequisites.
The extra talent Archetype is probably going to end up a trap option with the lowered damage.
Increased Finesse i would make it allow dex on damage with finessable weapons instead and require weapon finesse as a prequisite.
And yeah the precisionist has a bit too much going for it since not only does it get bonus dice and dice size but can take extra sneak attack even earlier.
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I would just up the dice twice not add extra dice. Those extra D8s add up quick.
I'm still seeing a fundamental failing of the rogue in combat: it lacks the ability to connect with it's attacks. Make sneak attacks touch attacks, give a +1hit/die, or something.
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Interesting ideas. I don't understand why people think the rogue is weak though. I've got a rogue in campaign at the moment...Serpent's Skull...and the only character that comes close in damage is the alchemist...who does a bit more...and everyone else far behind in damage dealing.
At low levels they can do this but the gap will change and widen at higher levels.
Also is the person playing the rogue typically the guy with the best damage in your group? Or does everyone else tend to have sub-par damage?
He could also be getting lucky in fights with flanking and such but most of the time he will fall flat if enemies dont just stand there and take it.
your fighter and your druid fail if they are being outdamaged by a rogue and an alchemist by double.
The system ate my post.
Spyderz, just because you aren't experiencing a problem, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
A good example: My Friday night group is extremely inept, I could play a quadruple amputee, and still be the most important member of the group, because I provide 90% of the good ideas.
most talents look well made and balanced. Some look below average, like that hold breath thing.
2 seem particularly weird to me.
shadow step, is there a worthwile scenario where I need to hide with a 5-foot step?
side step, so I can do a movement after taking 5-foot step? If you need that much explanation, perhaps replace it with an easier talent, no offense. As with the antagonize feat, some ideas are good, but the system can't make them smooth enough.
hm, shadow step with astonished attack, was that meant to be a combo? is it too good? (with sap master)
The precisionist with a sap master build would be overwhelming, I would change the 2d8 to flat 9, so that it's not "more dice".
Same for the feat "extra sneak attack". Do you really want someone to roll around 40 d8?
Talented thief seems like the difference of improving, you take away combat options and give non-combat options (ok it's more complex than that, but still).
So all in all, I like most of the stuff, but some isn't balanced (mainly if used together with sap master and all that UC stuff). Also it should be clarified if 2 sources up your sneak attack to d8, is it d10 then? And if a feat needs xd6 SA, and you got d8s, is that fine?
I'd like to give substantive feedback on the content, but unfortunately the writing proved to be too much of a barrier. I'm very sorry to say this -- but I had to give up.
If English is not the native language of the writer(s), then I can certainly understand, and sympathize; the near-universal lack of agreement between singular and plural pronouns (for example) leads me to believe that might be the case. That's OK for a draft version, but for proper playtesting by an English-speaking audience, an overhaul of the technical writing would be needed.
In summary, there might very well be very good ideas here, but I personally lack the dedication to parse for them. Please don't take this too personally -- I'm fully aware that patience is not my strong suit -- but since you're soliciting feedback, this is the best I can offer at this time.
I'd like to give substantive feedback on the content, but unfortunately the writing proved to be too much of a barrier. I'm very sorry to say this -- but I had to give up.
If English is not the native language of the writer(s), then I can certainly understand, and sympathize; the near-universal lack of agreement between singular and plural pronouns (for example) leads me to believe that might be the case. That's OK for a draft version, but for proper playtesting by an English-speaking audience, an overhaul of the technical writing would be needed.
In summary, there might very well be very good ideas here, but I personally lack the dedication to parse for them. Please don't take this too personally -- I'm fully aware that patience is not my strong suit -- but since you're soliciting feedback, this is the best I can offer at this time.
I have to second this. The content is good, but it needs better writing. I feel helpful at the moment, so if the OP wants a native English speaker to edit it, I could do so.
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Even feedback about the books editing or lack thereof is welcome.
As i mentioned in the first post the book hasn't been through even the first editing stage yet due to time and/or money constraints so i beg your forgiveness. I will endeavor to see that it does before the next beta release and you all have my apologies.
The talent I want to see most is the rogue gets +1 to hit for each sneak attack die they have. This would solve a lot of their problems in combat.
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The talent I want to see most is the rogue gets +1 to hit for each sneak attack die they have. This would solve a lot of their problems in combat.
That is tremendously powerful as a rogue talent. Rogue talents seem to be around the same power level of a feat.
I can see giving them a boost, I just think that is likely going a bit overboard.