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I'm not much of a rogue player, so I don't have much to say on whether Rogue is a weak class or not, but somehow sneak attack got stuck in my mind, and I started to break down what it means to sneak attack. Basically your hitting a vital spot and it is the same type of damage as a critical hit. Critical hits are basically lucky strikes to vital spots. So a thought struck me. Why not rework sneak attack to work through critical hits?
So here is my take on the rogue with a major re-haul to sneak attack.
The class is exactly the same except for the following:
Weapon Proficiency: Whip is added to the rogues list of weapon Proficiencies.
Critical Training (Ex)
At 1st level, a rogue uses his rogue level in place of his base attack bonus when confirming critical hits with special rogue weapons (dagger, dart, hand crossbow, punching dagger, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, and whip.)and for meeting the prerequisites of critical feats. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.
Sneak Attack and all of it's improvements are replaced by the following:
Sneak Attack (Ex)
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack with a special rogue weapon (dagger, dart, hand crossbow, punching dagger, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, and whip.) she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack is automatically a critical hit anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, nothing changes as the attack is already a critical. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, or whip), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Quick Critical (Ex)
At 3rd level, when a rogue gets a critical hit normally or through sneak attack while using his rogue weapon, he adds his dexterity modifier to the damage roll. This additional damage is multiplied as normal.
Improved Sneak Attack (Ex)
At 5th level, and every four levels thereafter, a rogue learns more ways take advantage of his targets to pull off sneak attacks, and can select an improved sneak attack. Each improved sneak attack adds a new condition that allows the rogue to pull off a sneak attack. The rogue can pull of one sneak attacks against one of the following conditions: Deafened, Disabled, Exhausted, Nauseated, Panicked
At 9th level, a rogue adds the following conditions to the list of those that can be selected: Dazed, Entangled, Fatigued, Frightened, Staggered
At 13th level, a rogue adds the following conditions to the list of those that can be selected: Poisoned, Shaken, Sickened
At 17th level, a rogue adds the following conditions to the list of those that can be selected: Prone, Grappled, Dazzled.
Rogue Critical (Ex)
At 7th level, the critical range and critical multiplier of the rogue’s rogue weapons increase by 1. These benefits stack with other critical increasing feats or magical items.
Catch of Guard (Ex)
Once a day, at 11th level, as a swift action you may designate one target and for your next attack, that target is considered flatfooted.
Greater Rogue Critical (Ex)
At 15th level, the critical range and critical multiplier of the rogue’s rogue weapons increase by 1. These benefits stack with other critical increasing feats or magical items.
Greater Catch of Guard (Ex)
When using Catch of guard, the target is treated as flatfooted towards all of the rogues attacks until the beginning the rogues next turn.
Rogue Talents
For the most part these would be the same. Any talent that works with a sneak attack instead works with a critical with a rogue weapon. the critical multiplier is the equivalent of the sneak attack bonus dice.
Possibly some talents that give bonuses to using rogue weapons as a group.
Possibly a talent for adding a weapon into the rogue weapons list. two rules if this was used.
1) Must be proficient with the weapon.
2) Must be a light or 1 handed melee weapon or thrown weapon or a bow. If a 1handed weapon is chosen, you lose the rogue weapon quality when you use two hands to wield it.
Anyway let me know what you all think. I have no idea if it is balanced, But I think the concept is pretty cool.
Rogue Critical needs to go. 15-20 x4 falcata. Shudder.
Catch off guard emulates an advanced rogue talent.
I would have to wonder about the balance of this when it comes to the individual weapons. Not saying I am right, because I havent playtested this, but at first blush you seem to be in pretty short order hitting crits without breaking a sweat no matter what weapon you use. This makes the x4 weapons drastically better options because no matter what you pick up you have a crit range a blind man could drive a bus through. Its a cool and clever idea though.
I like the idea of attaching conditions to sneak attacks -- I've done that in my house rules as well -- but here's the thing about your model of a crit-based SA: it doesn't scale with rogue level. That means a rogue 1/fighter 19 is ten times better at all the sneak attack stuff as a rogue 20. He gets the same critical mutliplier stacking using his class features, he'll attack more often (due to higher BAB), and he gets a lot more effects to choose from (by selecting more critical feats -- he gets a LOT of bonus feats, after all), and he can get Critical Mastery to stack a bunch of effects. The rogue becomes a 1-level class for sneak attack, +3 to a bajillion skills, and +2 to reflex saves... and I can't imagine anyone sticking with it after that.
A more minor issue: I think you mean "catch off guard," not "catch of guard" (the latter sounds like you just landed a boatful of Guard fish and are ready to cook them for dinner or something), and there is already a feat called "Catch Off-Guard," so you don't want to give something else the same name.
This is the main reason for special rogue weapons. They are supposed to be like monk weapons, in that these are the only weapons in which you can sneak attack and gain such bonuses. (just like monk weapons are the only weapons that can be used in flurry of blows) You would not be able to wield a falcata as a rogue weapon for example, unless a special feat or rogue talent that lets you to treat an exotic weapon as a rogue weapon.
It is true that you would be able to 1 level dip as a fighter to gain this critical sneak attack and critical training, but you are limited to dagger, dart, hand crossbow, punching dagger, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, and whip, most of which are light weapons. A two weapon fighter wielding punching daggers would be pretty powerful in this case, but 2 handed weapon fighters would not be able to abuse this sneak attack. Archer fighters would have the same problems as a normal rogue sneak attacker with a level 1 dip.
It is supposed to be Catch off guard, and I missed that the name was the same as a feat and I missed that there is already an advanced talent that does the same thing. I'll look into changing this.
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Special weapons for a specific class needs to go a way, it's terrible design to start with and problematic at best.
The mechanical reasoning behind the special rogue weapons is that this kind of class really favors and is easily broken by two handed weapons, which really is not the rogues style anyway. And level dip becomes extremely broken, as the others noted above.
Flavor reasoning is that lighter weaponry makes more sense when used for sneak attack. How often do you see a person sneak up on somebody from behind and slit their throat...with a two-handed great axe? Sure it can be done, but it just seems awkward. They are also mainly weapons that the rogue is already proficient with, and heavy weapons seem to have most of the love.
Maybe instead of a rogue weapon category, limit it to light weapons, one handed throwing weapons, and bows?
Any suggestions on how to make this work without special weapons or on anything else with the class?
Just want to point out, rogues are not 'broken' by THF. It's just the best melee option.
Agreed on both points, but if the current sneak attacking mechanic is replaced by a critical mechanic...
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Just want to point out, rogues are not 'broken' by THF. It's just the best melee option.Agreed on both points, but if the current sneak attacking mechanic is replaced by a critical mechanic...
Thats one approach; I'm not sure I like it though. its kindof swingy. plus at higher levels the rogue can already get a 15-20 crit range if he tries, iirc.
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Thats one approach; I'm not sure I like it though. its kindof swingy. plus at higher levels the rogue can already get a 15-20 crit range if he tries, iirc.Just want to point out, rogues are not 'broken' by THF. It's just the best melee option.Agreed on both points, but if the current sneak attacking mechanic is replaced by a critical mechanic...
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The file was only 2mb... lol
Went a different route with critical hits and rogues.
I'm still interested to see if sneak attacks can be made into critical hits and how it would work, so please feel free to keep discussing this idea.
Basically your hitting a vital spot and it is the same type of damage as a critical hit. Critical hits are basically lucky strikes to vital spots. So a thought struck me. Why not rework sneak attack to work through critical hits?
Because critical hits are 'lucky' hits and sneak attacks deliberate. Since critical hitting is something everyone can do, it gives no specific benefit to the rogue. (see Kirth's point)
Sneak Attack (Ex)
The rogue's attack is automatically a critical hit anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
This does not solve a perceived problem with rogues being dex-based. How does this solve their piddly damage with weapon finesse? Your suggestion massively benefits Strength based characters, and so it pushes the rogue to be Strength based instead of anything else. Why crit with 1d6+1 (rapier) when you can crit with 2d6+12 (greatsword + PA)? Also, why pick a large threat range weapon over a crit multiplier weapon? You get critical hits anyway, might as well pick a 20/x4 weapon -aka EVERY rogue will use a punching dagger-. Add to that Kirth's point.
Improved Sneak Attack (Ex)
is not too bad but not that great either. Enemies suffering from most of those effects are dead anyway. But the ability does make me think of an interesting option. Might I suggest making SA do some sort of minor hindering conditions to your enemies instead? Examples: make a save or have -1 to attacks, half movement rate, higher/must make concentration DC to cast spells etc.
FYI I'm trying to solve all that weapon finesse based stuff by making a feat that allows any character to deliver precision damage instead of strength-based damage (on light/finesse attacks only). Fighters based on Dex have the same problem rogues based on Dex have. They used to take weapon finesse, now they get that for free and can take another feat to up their damage. Still working on the math.
ADDIT: I'm really in favour of letting a rogue's player choose whether they want to fight with light weapons or two-handers or anything else. Sneak attack isn't necessarily 'slitting throats' or 'hitting vital organs' or anything like that. The option of giving sneak attack debuff effects is starting to be more appealing...