Can an invisible rogue using a 15th level Ring of Telekinesis (or an invisible (or greater invisible) arcane trickster casting telekinesis) use the Violent Thrust aspect of Telekinesis to get 15 sneak attacks in one round by telekinetically hurling 15 weapons?
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Can an invisible rogue using a 15th level Ring of Telekinesis (or an invisible (or greater invisible) arcane trickster casting telekinesis) use the Violent Thrust aspect of Telekinesis to get 15 sneak attacks in one round by telekinetically hurling 15 weapons?
No. He's not making attacks that can use sneak attack by using Violent Trust. They are merely making attack rolls to hit, kind of like a ray attack.
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects). Objects and creatures that miss their target land in a square adjacent to the target.
Wasn't there a rule somewhere saying that you can only get a single sneak attack on a spell volley? For example, you could hit a guy with with 3 rays from scorching ray or 15 darts from the violent thrust aspect of telekinesis, but you would only get to roll sneak attack on one of those attacks.
I'll see if I can track down where I remember this from.
Wasn't there a rule somewhere saying that you can only get a single sneak attack on a spell volley? For example, you could hit a guy with with 3 rays from scorching ray or 15 darts from the violent thrust aspect of telekinesis, but you would only get to roll sneak attack on one of those attacks.
I'll see if I can track down where I remember this from.
+1. I was just about to write the same thing, and I also hadn't been able to find the source.
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This is the link you're looking for, I think. Apparently it all still applies, unchanged from 3.5.
Which means, only the first in a volley does sneak attack, like Raving said.
This is the link you're looking for, I think. Apparently it all still applies, unchanged from 3.5.
Which means, only the first in a volley does sneak attack, like Raving said.
Just curious, how do we know it still applies? It may be a good suggestion, but I don't see how it's canon.
Just curious, how do we know it still applies? It may be a good suggestion, but I don't see how it's canon.
Okay, how about THIS
Just curious, how do we know it still applies? It may be a good suggestion, but I don't see how it's canon.Okay, how about THIS
Why can I sneak attack everyone in a fireball radius, but then must choose which of my five magic missile targets take sneak attack damage? That sounds inconsistent.
I can understand no sneak attacking one guy five times with magic missile, but shouldn't I get to share the love by spreading it out?
Perhaps because you can't aim all of them to perfection, so that you actually hit a particularly vulnerably spot?
I think it makes perfect sense (in that respect) that only one attack in a volley can get sneak attack added to it. Whether it should be so can of course be debated :)
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects). Objects and creatures that miss their target land in a square adjacent to the target.
There's another way to interpret it. The spell is worded so you in fact only get one attack, which damage's value depends on the total mass or stuff that hits the target with the different attack rolls. This damage is counted after the facts and is (total weight/25 pounds x 1) or (total weight/25 pounds x 1d6) or (weapon dice 1 + weapon dice 2 + weapon dice 3... + up to weapon dice 15). This single attack can do sneak damage as normal (i.e. once). This is still great as you're pretty sure to land your sneak damage against any enemy out of 15 dice rolls, even if you go with a volley of arrows for example.
The «damage-by-weight» part of the text really sells the «one-volley-attack» spirit of the spell IMO.
Perhaps because you can't aim all of them to perfection, so that you actually hit a particularly vulnerably spot?
I think it makes perfect sense (in that respect) that only one attack in a volley can get sneak attack added to it. Whether it should be so can of course be debated :)
But I can hit a particularly vulnerable spot on 15 people with a fireball with the same character.
Perhaps because you can't aim all of them to perfection, so that you actually hit a particularly vulnerably spot?
I think it makes perfect sense (in that respect) that only one attack in a volley can get sneak attack added to it. Whether it should be so can of course be debated :)
How can you surprise fireball everyone but not do a volley of five sneak attack magic missiles?
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Just curious, how do we know it still applies? It may be a good suggestion, but I don't see how it's canon.Okay, how about THIS
Actually, that has to do with the Arcane Trickster Sneaky Spells ability, not the actually sneak attack class feature. Unless otherwise mentioned by Paizo, the ruling in 3.5 (aka, the Volley ruling) should be considered RAW.
That said, I never follow that rule in any of my games. It's just lame :P
@SinTheMoon:
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items
Emphasis mine. Each attack is an individual attack, though they still count as a volley because they are part of a single spellcasting (which is, basically, the definition of a volley as defined in 3.5). This means that the spells doesn't do up to 15d6, but 1d6x15, which is WAY different in regards to how the spell reacts with damage reduction.
also, @ Black_Lantern: Magic Missile does not qualify for Sneak Attack (it doesn't have an attack roll), and the sneaky spells ability requires you to specify one target of a multi-ray/missile spell.
But I can hit a particularly vulnerable spot on 15 people with a fireball with the same character.
What do you mean? Perhaps I've missed the memo regarding fireballs..
But I can hit a particularly vulnerable spot on 15 people with a fireball with the same character.What do you mean? Perhaps I've missed the memo regarding fireballs..
The rule you used to explain why sneak attack isn't on every missile also says that area spells work with hitting all of the targets for sneak attack.(at least the way you intrepreted it.) Your rational says that not every attack can be sneak attack because they can't all be precise, however at the same time you accept a fireball(which is isn't even directed to be precise) has the ability to do sneak attack damage on all of the targets.
The rule you used to explain why sneak attack isn't on every missile also says that area spells work with hitting all of the targets for sneak attack.(at least the way you intrepreted it.) Your rational says that not every attack can be sneak attack because they can't all be precise, however at the same time you accept a fireball(which is isn't even directed to be precise) has the ability to do sneak attack damage on all of the targets.But I can hit a particularly vulnerable spot on 15 people with a fireball with the same character.What do you mean? Perhaps I've missed the memo regarding fireballs..
I don't follow. I never said a word about fireballs or about area spells?
*goes looking for clues*
Ah, I see now. You refer to the Arcane Trickster FAQ. Yes, that particular ruling doesn't make any sense to me. What I was referring to was the general sneak attack ruling regarding arrow volleys and ray volleys from 3.5.
I wasn't even aware of the Surprise Spells feature, to be honest. I haven't had an Arcane Trickster in a Pathfinder game yet, so I hadn't had a reason to read up on the class. IMO, that class feature shouldn't exist.
If iterative attacks and two weapon fighting can all get sneak attacks, why can't ranged attacks or spell volleys all get sneak attacks? I just don't understand.
Well.
A rogue can do a full attack action with as many ranged attacks as she can. Unless otherwise noted like in the Manyshot feat, if the sneak attack rules apply, all hits get sneak attack.
You must be in 30f reach and the target must be flatfooted.
If you can get close, you can flank with ranged weapons and get the sneak attack too. But this is a costly build for rogues.
You only cannot flank from distance with ranged weapons, but there is a teamwork feat now that can do this.
Enfilading Fire.
IF youre a ranged build you probably have Point blank and Precise Shot.
I would recommend Outflank or Precise Strike as the neccesary teamwork feat.
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Well.
A rogue can do a full attack action with as many ranged attacks as she can. Unless otherwise noted like in the Manyshot feat, if the sneak attack rules apply, all hits get sneak attack.
You must be in 30f reach and the target must be flatfooted.
If you can get close, you can flank with ranged weapons and get the sneak attack too. But this is a costly build for rogues.
You only cannot flank from distance with ranged weapons, but there is a teamwork feat now that can do this.
Enfilading Fire.
IF youre a ranged build you probably have Point blank and Precise Shot.
I would recommend Outflank or Precise Strike as the neccesary teamwork feat.
Improved invisibility means that all ranged attacks withing 30' are sneak attacks (they have no dex bonus to AC vs the rogue and attacks will not pop improved invisibility).
Manyshot is not really an exception. With Manyshot you only make 1 attack roll for those first two arrows, thus you can only apply precision and crit damage once (due to only one attack roll to base it off of).
Also, that Enfilading Fire does not make you flank with a ranged, only give you the +2 to attack if the opponent is already flanked by two allies. It does not matter how close you get, unless you are the Zen Archer Monk archetype, there is no way that I know of to flank with a ranged weapon since you cannot threaten any spaces with them.
It does not matter how close you get, unless you are the Zen Archer Monk archetype, there is no way that I know of to flank with a ranged weapon since you cannot threaten any spaces with them.
You can threaten:
Snap Shot (Combat): "Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity."
But not flank: "When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if..."
FAQ about Gang Up: "...since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat."