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I understand the idea, much like I understand the idea behind the Eidelon.
It is a noble aim. However it ain't gonna work.
Some abilities have natural synergies that make them useless in on context and broken in another. It isn't a simple pick the ingredients as equal units anymore than putting Ice Cream and Steak together makes a combination equal to the sum of it's parts.
Scrap the points.
In it's place put a menu.
Part 1: Pick an ability array. If you have multiple +2 scores, they must be split between physical and mental stats. If you must have +4 stats, make them have at least two -2 stats split between physical and mental stats, and don't let any of the mental stats have a +4 (too much bonus to casters)
Part 2: Major race options that correspond to abilities bonuses. These can have point values, but they will additionally correspond to ability choices made, both for balance and logical reasons. Want "hardy"? Fine, but you are going to need to have a con bonus since it is obviously a related racial trait. You can have one or two of these max.
Some abilities won't be tied this way, but many if not most will be. Particularly the ones that have synergy risks.
Part 3: Minor race options. Thinks like languages, skill focuses, stuff that is flavor but not game breaking.
Part 4: Negative race options that give you points that can only be spent on minor race options. No min/maxing to get a ton of synergy major race options.
Clean, simple, manageable. Add instructions on what to increase for races with racial levels and you are good to go.
I know you want the point system to work. But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You can make this a clean and simple system that can be used broadly to create a great many options, or you can create a broken messy loophole filled point system that gets cast aside by reasonable GMs and leads to messageboards full of min/maxer explaining how their sparkle elf is totally legal.
K.I.S.S.
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You can make this a clean and simple system that can be used broadly to create a great many options, or you can create a broken messy loophole filled point system that gets cast aside by reasonable GMs and leads to messageboards full of min/maxer explaining how their sparkle elf is totally legal.
I'm sorry, but you're talking about people who would in all seriousness argue for days about who's tougher: Superman or Mighty Mouse. Your "elegant system" wouldn't negate any of that b.s.
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I'm sorry, but you're talking about people who would in all seriousness argue for days about who's tougher: Superman or Mighty Mouse. Your "elegant system" wouldn't negate any of that b.s.You can make this a clean and simple system that can be used broadly to create a great many options, or you can create a broken messy loophole filled point system that gets cast aside by reasonable GMs and leads to messageboards full of min/maxer explaining how their sparkle elf is totally legal.
1. Superman. :p
2. There is "fixed" and there is "Better". A point buy isn't going to work because these items value is determined as much if not more by how it interacts.
Selling ice to Eskimos alters the value of the commodity, and everything about racial traits is contextual rather than empirical.
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A munchkin can make anything contentious, so the GM just has to say, "this is a GM tool, I'm running this campaign and this is how it's going to be. Either get on, or get off."
At some point a GM needs to grow a pair (what that pair happens to be depends on gender) and needs to be able to look a whiny player dead square in the eyes and just say "No."
Yes.
However that doesn't mean you create a point system that is based off of a ridiculous presumption that quantities are equal to a specific value rather than the true value being the interaction between the quantities.
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This thread, along with every second on every website in the interweb, leads me to empircally rest my case.
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I'm sorry, but you're talking about people who would in all seriousness argue for days about who's tougher: Superman or Mighty Mouse. Your "elegant system" wouldn't negate any of that b.s.You can make this a clean and simple system that can be used broadly to create a great many options, or you can create a broken messy loophole filled point system that gets cast aside by reasonable GMs and leads to messageboards full of min/maxer explaining how their sparkle elf is totally legal.
Don't be ridiculous. Nobody would argue about that when it obviously goes:
1) Pre-Crisis Superman
2) Mighty Mouse
3) Post-Crisis Superman:)
Anyways, I think the point-buy system will work fine when used by GMs who want to make customs races to flavor their own campaigns, which is what it seems meant to do. I don't think any good GM would just let a player make some ridiculous min-maxed race and then play without checking it out just because it's technically legal. The system shouldn't be used like that and I don't think it's supposed to.
If the point buy system can only be useful to good GMs who will carefully check to make sure all the races are balanced, it has almost no utility as those people are the ones who can already make a well balanced race.
The point buy is supposed to be the tool you use to check the race.
If it fails to do that, it fails at the only utility it has.
I understand the idea, much like I understand the idea behind the Eidelon.
It is a noble aim. However it ain't gonna work.
Some abilities have natural synergies that make them useless in on context and broken in another. It isn't a simple pick the ingredients as equal units anymore than putting Ice Cream and Steak together makes a combination equal to the sum of it's parts.
Scrap the points.
In it's place put a menu.
Part 1: Pick an ability array. If you have multiple +2 scores, they must be split between physical and mental stats. If you must have +4 stats, make them have at least two -2 stats split between physical and mental stats, and don't let any of the mental stats have a +4 (too much bonus to casters)
Part 2: Major race options that correspond to abilities bonuses. These can have point values, but they will additionally correspond to ability choices made, both for balance and logical reasons. Want "hardy"? Fine, but you are going to need to have a con bonus since it is obviously a related racial trait. You can have one or two of these max.
Some abilities won't be tied this way, but many if not most will be. Particularly the ones that have synergy risks.
Part 3: Minor race options. Thinks like languages, skill focuses, stuff that is flavor but not game breaking.
Part 4: Negative race options that give you points that can only be spent on minor race options. No min/maxing to get a ton of synergy major race options.
Clean, simple, manageable. Add instructions on what to increase for races with racial levels and you are good to go.
I know you want the point system to work. But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You can make this a clean and simple system that can be used broadly to create a great many options, or you can create a broken messy loophole filled point system that gets cast aside by reasonable GMs and leads to messageboards full of min/maxer explaining how their sparkle elf is totally legal.
K.I.S.S.
I sadly agree with you.
I just hope that many dungeon masters have raised their common sense defense for what is coming their way....
I understand the idea, much like I understand the idea behind the Eidelon.
It is a noble aim. However it ain't gonna work.
Some abilities have natural synergies that make them useless in on context and broken in another. It isn't a simple pick the ingredients as equal units anymore than putting Ice Cream and Steak together makes a combination equal to the sum of it's parts.
Scrap the points.
In it's place put a menu.
Part 1: Pick an ability array. If you have multiple +2 scores, they must be split between physical and mental stats. If you must have +4 stats, make them have at least two -2 stats split between physical and mental stats, and don't let any of the mental stats have a +4 (too much bonus to casters)
Part 2: Major race options that correspond to abilities bonuses. These can have point values, but they will additionally correspond to ability choices made, both for balance and logical reasons. Want "hardy"? Fine, but you are going to need to have a con bonus since it is obviously a related racial trait. You can have one or two of these max.
Some abilities won't be tied this way, but many if not most will be. Particularly the ones that have synergy risks.
Part 3: Minor race options. Thinks like languages, skill focuses, stuff that is flavor but not game breaking.
Part 4: Negative race options that give you points that can only be spent on minor race options. No min/maxing to get a ton of synergy major race options.
Clean, simple, manageable. Add instructions on what to increase for races with racial levels and you are good to go.
I know you want the point system to work. But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You can make this a clean and simple system that can be used broadly to create a great many options, or you can create a broken messy loophole filled point system that gets cast aside by reasonable GMs and leads to messageboards full of min/maxer explaining how their sparkle elf is totally legal.
K.I.S.S.
I find the rules easy to use, the point costs are simple and do not require a calculator. So far everything I have built has had a very balanced feel was not stronger or weaker than a baseline human which I used as a control.
I built seven Standard Races 10 points no more than 3 choices in any one trait section. It worked very well.
Both the Hulk Builds and Sparkle Elf Builds claimed to be Standard Races but were proven not to be the case as they used advanced Attributes making them Advanced Races it has been disproved to be legal in both threads.
This is intended to be a GM tool even this was brought up by the Dev. more than twice. Which means the GM has final say whether to let a race built by a player in a game the GM is running. I will use this system to build Races my players can choose from so I control how much power they have.
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I find the rules easy to use, the point costs are simple and do not require a calculator. So far everything I have built has had a very balanced feel was not stronger or weaker than a baseline human which I used as a control.
I built seven Standard Races 10 points no more than 3 choices in any one trait section. It worked very well.Both the Hulk Builds and Sparkle Elf Builds claimed to be Standard Races but were proven not to be the case as they used advanced Attributes making them Advanced Races it has been disproved to be legal in both threads.
This is intended to be a GM tool even this was brought up by the Dev. more than twice. Which means the GM has final say whether to let a race built by a player in a game the GM is running. I will use this system to build Races my players can choose from so I control how much power they have.
I just came from a thread where DM a person was allowed to make a venerable drow noble lich with no level adjustment, and then on top of that was given access to 3.0 and 3.5 material while moving around ability bonuses to get his Int up to 38 at 13th level and he was still whining about being underpowered.
So color me skeptical.
Everything else in the game understands synergy and has pre-requisites or linked requirements.
There is no logical reason race should be an exception. You should need a race with a con bonus to take hardy. There should be reasons behind things, and point value will not produce a reasonable and logical race. It will produce munchkin builds.
There is no reason for this to be the book that jumps the shark.
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I just came from a thread where DM a person was allowed to make a venerable drow noble lich with no level adjustment, and then on top of that was given access to 3.0 and 3.5 material while moving around ability bonuses to get his Int up to 38 at 13th level and he was still whining about being underpowered.
So color me skeptical.
Well honestly if the GM's allowing that, then it isn't going to matter what restrictions/system they use for this :p
Also:
"Hardy (1 RP): Prerequisites: Race has a +2 bonus to Constitution;
Benefit: Members of this race gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities."
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I just came from a thread where DM a person was allowed to make a venerable drow noble lich with no level adjustment, and then on top of that was given access to 3.0 and 3.5 material while moving around ability bonuses to get his Int up to 38 at 13th level and he was still whining about being underpowered.
So color me skeptical.
Well honestly if the GM's allowing that, then it isn't going to matter what restrictions/system they use for this :p
Also:
"Hardy (1 RP): Prerequisites: Race has a +2 bonus to Constitution;
Benefit: Members of this race gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities."
Serves me right for skimming before posting rather than reading.
Thanks, I'll go shut up now :)