Halfling luck - a +1 to all saves - costs 2 points
Hardy - +2 to saves against spells, spell-like abilities and poison - only costs 1.
+2 is quite nice (a lot more than 1) and let's face it, between spells/spell-likes and poison, we have cornered most saving throws a character is likely to make. What else is there? The occasional disease, supernatural ability, natural hazard and trap.
Even if we're saying that it's only half the saves, it's basically the same as the lucky thing - +2 to half the saves versus +1 to all of them.
Of course, that means we have proven that dwarves need to be cut down to size, but they already get to deduct a point for slow without considering that they can wear armour, which I'd consider to be not as bad as regular slow (size notwithstanding). (Of course, without using half points, it's hard to make a difference between slow and slow and steady)
Halfling luck - a +1 to all saves - costs 2 points
Hardy - +2 to saves against spells, spell-like abilities and poison - only costs 1.
+2 is quite nice (a lot more than 1) and let's face it, between spells/spell-likes and poison, we have cornered most saving throws a character is likely to make. What else is there? The occasional disease, supernatural ability, natural hazard and trap.
Even if we're saying that it's only half the saves, it's basically the same as the lucky thing - +2 to half the saves versus +1 to all of them.
Of course, that means we have proven that dwarves need to be cut down to size, but they already get to deduct a point for slow without considering that they can wear armour, which I'd consider to be not as bad as regular slow (size notwithstanding). (Of course, without using half points, it's hard to make a difference between slow and slow and steady)
Cheap? Where are you getting those points mate?
Halfling luck - a +1 to all saves - costs 2 points
Hardy - +2 to saves against spells, spell-like abilities and poison - only costs 1.
+2 is quite nice (a lot more than 1) and let's face it, between spells/spell-likes and poison, we have cornered most saving throws a character is likely to make. What else is there? The occasional disease, supernatural ability, natural hazard and trap.
Even if we're saying that it's only half the saves, it's basically the same as the lucky thing - +2 to half the saves versus +1 to all of them.
Of course, that means we have proven that dwarves need to be cut down to size, but they already get to deduct a point for slow without considering that they can wear armour, which I'd consider to be not as bad as regular slow (size notwithstanding). (Of course, without using half points, it's hard to make a difference between slow and slow and steady)
Sssssssshhhh....
Otherwise they can't cover up that the dwarf is a solid 13 points build :P.
Paizo can't let that happen. Dwarfs must be supreme :P
Cheap? Where are you getting those points mate?Halfling luck - a +1 to all saves - costs 2 points
Hardy - +2 to saves against spells, spell-like abilities and poison - only costs 1.
+2 is quite nice (a lot more than 1) and let's face it, between spells/spell-likes and poison, we have cornered most saving throws a character is likely to make. What else is there? The occasional disease, supernatural ability, natural hazard and trap.
Even if we're saying that it's only half the saves, it's basically the same as the lucky thing - +2 to half the saves versus +1 to all of them.
Of course, that means we have proven that dwarves need to be cut down to size, but they already get to deduct a point for slow without considering that they can wear armour, which I'd consider to be not as bad as regular slow (size notwithstanding). (Of course, without using half points, it's hard to make a difference between slow and slow and steady)
What do you mean, sport?
What do you mean, sport?Cheap? Where are you getting those points mate?Halfling luck - a +1 to all saves - costs 2 points
Hardy - +2 to saves against spells, spell-like abilities and poison - only costs 1.
+2 is quite nice (a lot more than 1) and let's face it, between spells/spell-likes and poison, we have cornered most saving throws a character is likely to make. What else is there? The occasional disease, supernatural ability, natural hazard and trap.
Even if we're saying that it's only half the saves, it's basically the same as the lucky thing - +2 to half the saves versus +1 to all of them.
Of course, that means we have proven that dwarves need to be cut down to size, but they already get to deduct a point for slow without considering that they can wear armour, which I'd consider to be not as bad as regular slow (size notwithstanding). (Of course, without using half points, it's hard to make a difference between slow and slow and steady)
Sorry there mate, talked out of me arse there. Didn't see the playtest was up when I read that.
But I mostly agree with you. Hardy should cost 2 points too.
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Hardy is redic; it's +2 to most relevant saves. Since the ability to make it a +4 came out many people take the same thing as a feat option (which costs 4 points). If hardy were a feat non-dwarves could take I'd take it on most of my support casters.
Dwarves are good enough that they may be the only race people circumvent their ability bonuses to take the race anyway because of survivability. And the causes for that are Hardy and a "irrelevant for most" dump stat in Cha.
Most of the ability costs are unsuited to what they grant. It seems like the costs were chosen so that all the core races would come out to 10, rather than the costs chosen to reflect the usefulness of the abilities. I'd say slow is a bigger penalty than -1 as well.
I don't think hardy is as amazing as advertised, but I would take it for 2 points before I would take the halflings generic +1.
Most saves you make that matter (i.e. not reflex saves LOL) are going to be either 1)magical 2)poisons. It's like a must have for 1 point. I agree with OP it should be 2 points. Maybe if it was +2 on FORT saves against poisons, spells and SLAs?
I don't think hardy is as amazing as advertised, but I would take it for 2 points before I would take the halflings generic +1.Most saves you make that matter (i.e. not reflex saves LOL) are going to be either 1)magical 2)poisons. It's like a must have for 1 point. I agree with OP it should be 2 points. Maybe if it was +2 on FORT saves against poisons, spells and SLAs?
I've tried to make cases comparing hardy to things it either definitely trumps (Illusion Resistance) or probably trumps (the rest of the save abilities) in this thread on pricing discrepancies and eccentricities. Feel free to critique my observations on Hardy (and other abilities) as well as add your own!
What do you mean, sport?Cheap? Where are you getting those points mate?Halfling luck - a +1 to all saves - costs 2 points
Hardy - +2 to saves against spells, spell-like abilities and poison - only costs 1.
+2 is quite nice (a lot more than 1) and let's face it, between spells/spell-likes and poison, we have cornered most saving throws a character is likely to make. What else is there? The occasional disease, supernatural ability, natural hazard and trap.
Even if we're saying that it's only half the saves, it's basically the same as the lucky thing - +2 to half the saves versus +1 to all of them.
Of course, that means we have proven that dwarves need to be cut down to size, but they already get to deduct a point for slow without considering that they can wear armour, which I'd consider to be not as bad as regular slow (size notwithstanding). (Of course, without using half points, it's hard to make a difference between slow and slow and steady)
Sorry there mate, talked out of me arse there. Didn't see the playtest was up when I read that.
But I mostly agree with you. Hardy should cost 2 points too.
You were posting in the Advanced Race Guide forum, you know! :P
I was generally bewildered what you were saying. I wasn't sure whether you were unaware of the playtest (which turned out to be true) or were disagreeing with my assessments. Hence the confusion. No worries, mate!
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Halfling luck - a +1 to all saves - costs 2 points
Hardy - +2 to saves against spells, spell-like abilities and poison - only costs 1.
+2 is quite nice (a lot more than 1) and let's face it, between spells/spell-likes and poison, we have cornered most saving throws a character is likely to make. What else is there? The occasional disease, supernatural ability, natural hazard and trap.
Even if we're saying that it's only half the saves, it's basically the same as the lucky thing - +2 to half the saves versus +1 to all of them.
Of course, that means we have proven that dwarves need to be cut down to size, but they already get to deduct a point for slow without considering that they can wear armour, which I'd consider to be not as bad as regular slow (size notwithstanding). (Of course, without using half points, it's hard to make a difference between slow and slow and steady)
Agree 100%
Sssssssshhhh....
Otherwise they can't cover up that the dwarf is a solid 13 points build :P.
Well, on the other hand, Greed is clearly worth zero points by itself. So they're getting ripped off on one side and benefits on the other side...
Well, on the other hand, Greed is clearly worth zero points by itself. So they're getting ripped off on one side and benefits on the other side...Sssssssshhhh....
Otherwise they can't cover up that the dwarf is a solid 13 points build :P.
Compared to the Human whichget ripped off with every single ability?
The only thing MAYBE worth its cost is the feat for 4 pts. But compare to other bonuses even this would make a 3pts buy only...
In my eyes the Human is a (the result drops and drops for me) 7 points build (feat only 3, skill only 2).
Getting the Dwarf to 10 points is really cheating the costs so it fits.
It is hardy it is an awesome ability.
Compared to the Human whichget ripped off with every single ability?
The only thing MAYBE worth its cost is the feat for 4 pts. But compare to other bonuses even this would make a 3pts buy only...
In my eyes the Human is a (the result drops and drops for me) 7 points build (feat only 3, skill only 2).
I'd have to disagree. Generally, humans tend to be one of the best races for nearly anything, due to having very useful skills and no useless abilities.
+2 is what some races pay for a +2 to a certain skill, but that's pretty absurd imo. Humans get a new skill point every level - ergo can have one more trained skill (and ranks in a trained skill means +3 bonus on top of the rank), which tends to be a lot more useful overall. APG already buffed humans with some amazing alternative favoured class bonuses - +1 spell known for spontaneous casters, for example.
Hardy and a few other boosts certainly are underpriced, no doubt about that. Really, though, I think the problem is that others are overpriced. If any race needs to complain, it's goblins. Seriously, +4 to ride and stealth costing 8 RP, what can you say about that?