A bunch of pro-fighter stuff.And you have a will save of what, +2? At best? If the wizard goes first, roll a 15+ or loose. If the wizard goes last, you hit him for 15 damage, maybe half his hp if he hasn't buffed, then roll a 15+ or loose.Evidently, you have never built a fighter, like ever.
Fighter Build:
16+2 STR [10], 15+1 DEX (7), 13 CON [3], 10 INT [0], 12 WIS [2], 8 CHA [-2]
Traits: Reactive, +1 Will Save
Feats: Weapon Focus, Iron Will; Improved Initiative; Power Attack; Weapon Spec; Rapid ShotFort: +5, Ref: +5, Will: +6, +7 vs Fear. Init: +3+2+4=+9. AC of 10+9+2+2=23. If I'm willing to go breastplate, it's 10+6+2+3=21 and a move of 30' per turn.
That is a rather inane selection of feats. What level is this little circus even at?
This being a nobody gets magic items theorycrafting lunacy, Mr. Wizard has only the spells he gains each level...there's no convenient "Yeah, I'll spend XXX GP and get the entire list" option. If that's allowed, Mr. Fighter gets a few other things as well. Like a potion of Fly...
A potion of fly is a magic item, a spellbook isn't and the same applies to other wizards who let you copy from their spellbook they aren't magic items. That's why (as other people have said) a "low magic" setting needs more restrictions than the no magic shops.
Low magic needs a control on spells. Even if a spellbook it's not a magic item (and I don't think, more or less is full of scrolls) if you don't control spells and item creation feats players just need a caster in the party to bring you low magic to normal play.
Since magic is a very expensive tecnology, more gold you give to party and more non caster became stronger. Less magic item you give, more caster will be powerful (but, as I said before, a caster can craft for all the party).
Barbarians do a little better on their own, but have even more armor class problems.
Barbarians have no AC problems. They have no AC to have problems with. Barbarians should focus on hitting hard and being big ole meatbags, not stacking armor and being worried about getting booboos.
That being said, I don't see why Barbarians would be as item dependent as Fighters. Rage gives sexy bonuses and the rage powers really give a lot of versatility. Lets put it this way, I run a lvl 6 barbarian in a lvl 8 campaign, who's sole weapon is a Masterwork Greatsword and I routinely out DPS the TWF Ranger, Sorcerer and Rogue.
Barbarians have no AC problems. They have no AC to have problems with. Barbarians should focus on hitting hard and being big ole meatbags, not stacking armor and being worried about getting booboos.
Barbarians do a little better on their own, but have even more armor class problems.
That's an excellent way to get dead in D&D.
Luckily D&D is more than an exercise in not being dead. :)
The biggest issue that barbarian would have is his need for copious amounts of healing. As long as that's taken care of, it'd be a fun character (at least I'd think it was fun).
But that is NOT what we are discussing. We are not discussing a blind booster tournament, we are discussing a world in which it is hard to find magic items, not a longswordNot discussing witch class is the most powerful/usable for the party, but who would lose most in a pre made adventure path in witch you aren't guaranteed to have an equipment of your choice. I think fighter loses the most as your feat choises suggest a fighter really needs a specific type of weapon to be effective.Fighter, surprisingly.
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization
Weapon Training
Well, I meant that it is not certain that you'll find a magic longsword. The OP stated that his world don't have magic shops, not that the magic items are extremely rare. So a fighter who is specialized in one weapon is most likely screwed.
Luckily D&D is more than an exercise in not being dead. :)
Not for the Barbarian.
Well, I meant that it is not certain that you'll find a magic longsword. The OP stated that his world don't have magic shops, not that the magic items are extremely rare. So a fighter who is specialized in one weapon is most likely screwed.But that is NOT what we are discussing. We are not discussing a blind booster tournament, we are discussing a world in which it is hard to find magic items, not a longswordNot discussing witch class is the most powerful/usable for the party, but who would lose most in a pre made adventure path in witch you aren't guaranteed to have an equipment of your choice. I think fighter loses the most as your feat choises suggest a fighter really needs a specific type of weapon to be effective.Fighter, surprisingly.
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization
Weapon Training
Then your GM is a git.
GM: "Hey, I know this is a homebrew world and that you specialize in longsword, but here, the only magical weapon in the country is a sai. Have fun!"
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Not for the Barbarian.Luckily D&D is more than an exercise in not being dead. :)
It is true for any class that takes damage without the ability to heal it.
One must either have the ability to avoid taking most damage or be able to heal it. Low AC + no healing means even the barbarian faceplants quickly when solo.
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Then your GM is a git.
GM: "Hey, I know this is a homebrew world and that you specialize in longsword, but here, the only magical weapon in the country is a sai. Have fun!"
There is a difference between not tailoring the loot for the party and being an a$$.
The party fighter specializing in the long sword in a western themed campaign is usually a fairly safe bet, though short swords, maces, hammers, and two-handed swords will also be common. If the holy avenger turns out to be a maul instead of a sword, the paladin is still going to use it.
The party fighter specializing in katanas in the same setting is probably wasting the feats.
sorcerers are so much less equipment dependant than wizards.
they may not be as Versatile. but they are a lot easier to DM for.
and for the player, they are easier to play and harder to screw over.
but at least you require neither a book nor components. really helps in a low magic game.
Opportunities to craft magic items are few and far between--we don't even have many scrolls.
That makes no sense. Party can't take a break for 1 day to craft a scroll of a spell? You never sleep?
It doesn't make sense unless DM forces extra mechanics to prevent it.Like requiring you to skin evey monster for components.
Similarly, gaining an opposing wizard's spellbook doesn't mean you'll be able to add the spells to your own spellbook.
That makes no sense. How does he stop that? Elaborate.
Powers of clerics and druids are more rigidly defined by deity; the full list is not guaranteed to be available
So his method is to gimp casters.
I play a bard, and I regularly find that my physical attacks are FAR more important than my spells.
How did he gimp Bards?
You listed only Wizard/Cleric/Driud. You must be forgetting the Bard nerfs.
The big thing to keep in mind is that you don't often see a low-magic world that restricts magic item availability and stops there; often large swaths of spellcasting and crafting are affected as well.
But you can't restrict crafting as long as the casters get the feats. I don't understand what you mean.
Unless he changes the craft feats requirements.Party decides to spend a day letting dude craft. Next day they adventure. No time wasted (unless GM makes them waste time instead of skipping to next day).
I mean, I would really like to know how he limits crafting.
OP wrote:
I was using general terms, sorry if that confused some.
I really mean a campaign like Savage Tide, or Serpents Skull, where the access to magic items is very limited until you can Teleport.
Then your GM is a git.
GM: "Hey, I know this is a homebrew world and that you specialize in longsword, but here, the only magical weapon in the country is a sai. Have fun!"
The AP they are using may be pre-made. Some GMs are lazy enough not adding the weapon of your choice to an AP. And besides, if the fighter is guaranteed to have an item of his choice it kind of dillutes the whole going commando thing.
OP wrote:
I was using general terms, sorry if that confused some.
I really mean a campaign like Savage Tide, or Serpents Skull, where the access to magic items is very limited until you can Teleport.
The AP they are using may be pre-made. Some GMs are lazy enough not adding the weapon of your choice to an AP. And besides, if the fighter is guaranteed to have an item of his choice it kind of dillutes the whole going commando thing.
Then your GM is a git.
GM: "Hey, I know this is a homebrew world and that you specialize in longsword, but here, the only magical weapon in the country is a sai. Have fun!"
Then I guess you won't be changing weapons. You are better off staying with your primary weapon than trying to use a +1 Sai.
Ow, no. Monks are very dependent on magic items. They get a lot of class features, but they are criminally underpowered and most are finite due to being based on Ki. Not only that, but they are one of the most MAD classes with little to show for it. If you want to make a tank in a low magic world, MAYBE take a Monk. But the problem arises tanking sucks and is impossible.In a low Magic, or infrequent Magic Shop type Adventure which Classes deal with the lack of bling best?Probably monks, of all the non-casters.
Of the casters, any of them with crafting feats.
No one said about what role the character was to fulfil, it's about which can deal with low magic best. Especially no one said anything about it having to be a tank!
Casters - gain a great deal out of scrolls, wands and staves. Take these away and their versatility, their greatest advantage, is sorely hindered by their restricted spells/day (just as the monk is restricted by their ki, only perhaps more so).
Combat Classes - rely on magic armour for protection and magic weapons to deal damage and overcome DR. Take away those things and combat classes suffer as much if not more than casters.
The Monk can over come some DR (the most common ones) with his bare hands, he doesn't need armour but has an AC that will scale with level without it.
Basically, the monk can gain from having magic items, but doesn't stop being effective without them.
No one said about what role the character was to fulfil, it's about which can deal with low magic best. Especially no one said anything about it having to be a tank!Casters - gain a great deal out of scrolls, wands and staves. Take these away and their versatility, their greatest advantage, is sorely hindered by their restricted spells/day (just as the monk is restricted by their ki, only perhaps more so).
Combat Classes - rely on magic armour for protection and magic weapons to deal damage and overcome DR. Take away those things and combat classes suffer as much if not more than casters.
The Monk can over come some DR (the most common ones) with his bare hands, he doesn't need armour but has an AC that will scale with level without it.
Basically, the monk can gain from having magic items, but doesn't stop being effective without them.
Wow. No. Just no.
You like Monks, we get it, but that is a laughably bad assessment.A caster's power is in.. BEING ABLE TO INHERENTLY USE MAGIC. Scrolls, wands, and staves are bonuses but they are not NEEDED for the classes to fight anything at the correct CR. Scrolls, wands, and staves are basically "ring of the ram" or "apparatus of the crab." They have their uses but are ultimately not as good as their inherent abilities.
Combat classes need magic items, yes, but their flat magic bonuses are lower than the benefits from Strength or the benefits granted by their classes. A Monk is never going to have the equivalent of full plate and a heavy shield without magic items, and if he DOES manage that, he won't be able to HURT anything. Moreover, he has to use an expendable resource to gain those things with his bare hands. Combat characters can just pick up a new weapon with the property. Or can rely on casters to enhance them. Due to someone at Paizo hating Monks, they can't benefit from those enhancements. Paladins can enchant their own weapons and are partial casters. Rangers are partial casters and get bonuses against certain enemies. Fighters increase their own weapon damage and to-hit. Rogues get sneak attack.
Sure, if you want to spend your day avoiding getting beat up, play a Monk and run away. If you want to actually contribute without magic weapons, play something else.
{still not getting it}
The question is not about which class is best.
The question is not about what role monks fill.
The question is about which classes can still function best with restricted magic items.
If you look at my answer, I listed monks as first out of the non-casting classes, so all the arguing about casters and how effective they are is not really relevant. A casting class can craft items anyway and the restriction becomes meaningless. Of course a caster is good in a low magic environment even without item crafting, because they still have magic. However, they will be impacted by lack of scrolls, wands etc. that they often utilise.
Let me put it this way: of the non-casting classes, the monk has the most magic-like abilities. Hence, he is able to do the best in low magic for the same reason that the caster is good in low magic, in that he does not depend on magic items to get magic effects. He will still be impacted by lack of rings, amulets, bracers, belts and headbands, but no more so than any other class.
The other fighting classes are impacted by lack of magic in their weapons and armour. The monk isn't - or at least not as much. I am not arguing that the monk is better at fulfilling any of the roles of these other classes in any way, I am just pointing out that the monk doing what the monk does is less impacted by lack of magic items than, for example, the fighter doing what the fighter does or the wizard doing what the wizard does.
{still not getting it}The question is not about which class is best.
The question is not about what role monks fill.
That is actually NOT the question and were it the question, no one is answering it anyway. Though that is a good question because I have NO IDEA what role the monk is supposed to fill.
The question is about which classes can still function best with restricted magic items.
Full casters -> 3/4 casters -> Paladins -> Rogues -> Fighters -> Rangers -> Barbarians/Cavaliers -> Monks
If you look at my answer, I listed monks as first out of the non-casting classes,
And I listed it last out of all classes.
so all the arguing about casters and how effective they are is not really relevant.
Then why do you keep bringing it up and with nonsense arguments to boot.
However, they will be impacted by lack of scrolls, wands etc. that they often utilise.
No, they really won't. The only expendable item I have ever seen casters use consistently is a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.
Let me put it this way: of the non-casting classes, the monk has the most magic-like abilities.
No, not really. Even if we discount the half-assed casting, Paladins exceed them. And get way better stuff for it:
They get a lot of class features, but they are criminally underpowered and most are finite due to being based on Ki.
Hence, he is able to do the best in low magic for the same reason that the caster is good in low magic, in that he does not depend on magic items to get magic effects. He will still be impacted by lack of rings, amulets, bracers, belts and headbands, but no more so than any other class.
The Monk is bad in low magic for the same exact reason he is bad in high magic - it's a bad class. It gets a ton of features but the class is highly MAD with nothing to show for it but the ability to not actually do anything very well but max out AC, which is useless. It's features are extremely gimped. The Monk was bad in 3.5 and Paizo did nothing to fix it.
The other fighting classes are impacted by lack of magic in their weapons and armour.
The other fighting classes can use real armor and have class abilities that increase their damage.
The monk isn't - or at least not as much.
The Fighter's, Paladin's, Barbarian's, and Ranger's damage output was only MARGINALLY based on magic item bonuses.
I am not arguing that the monk is better at fulfilling any of the roles of these other classes in any way, I am just pointing out that the monk doing what the monk does is less impacted by lack of magic items than, for example, the fighter doing what the fighter does or the wizard doing what the wizard does.
Yes, the Monk is equally good at being a Monk in either high or low magic, that is to say the class is just as bad with magic items as it is with no magic items. I agree with you.
I would say that Barbarian & Ranger are best suited martial classes for APs like Serpents Skull or Savage Tide. Because of their skill selection & ease to use different weapons (rage & FE don't ask what weapon you are using). Monk is right out because of the need of very spesific equipment.
Fighter, Pally & Cavalier suffer from:
Recommendations: All manner of weapons and armor
exist in the Mwangi Expanse, but legends speak of certain
types of powerful magic weapons being hidden in the
region’s ancient ruins. Fighters might want to avoid
dedicating themselves to the use of heavy armor—or pursue
ways of increasing their mobility in such armaments—as
the heat and other challenges of the jungle can make such
gear unwieldy, or even dangerous, to wear.
I don't think fighters are bad usually. But if the guide actually states that heavy armor is a bad idea and doesn't give recommendations what weapon you should use, the fighters life will be a lot harder than usually.
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BARBARIAN NEVER WEAR SHIRT. AM NEVER NEED FOR SHIRT.
WHY THEN AM BARBARIAN NEED UNDERPANTS?
BARBARIAN AM BEST CLASS, AND BARBARIAN AM ABLE TO BE BEST CLASS WITHOUT UNDERWEAR.
THUS, BARBARIAN AM GREATEST GOING COMMANDO. LOGIC AM IRREFUTABLE.
I would say that Barbarian & Ranger are best suited martial classes for APs like Serpents Skull or Savage Tide. Because of their skill selection & ease to use different weapons (rage & FE don't ask what weapon you are using). Monk is right out because of the need of very spesific equipment.
Fighter, Pally & Cavalier suffer from:
I don't think fighters are bad usually. But if the guide actually states that heavy armor is a bad idea and doesn't give recommendations what weapon you should use, the fighters life will be a lot harder than usually.Recommendations: All manner of weapons and armor
exist in the Mwangi Expanse, but legends speak of certain
types of powerful magic weapons being hidden in the
region’s ancient ruins. Fighters might want to avoid
dedicating themselves to the use of heavy armor—or pursue
ways of increasing their mobility in such armaments—as
the heat and other challenges of the jungle can make such
gear unwieldy, or even dangerous, to wear.
Which is actually a weird thing to say because Fighter (the class) actually gets BETTER at using heavy armor and it makes no sense to not use it. Now, that might hurt Paladins and Cavaliers.
Which is actually a weird thing to say because Fighter (the class) actually gets BETTER at using heavy armor and it makes no sense to not use it. Now, that might hurt Paladins and Cavaliers.
Unless of course wearing heavy armor means you make heat exhaustion checks every minute or every 10 minutes rather than every hour...
Unless of course wearing heavy armor means you make heat exhaustion checks every minute or every 10 minutes rather than every hour...
Which is actually a weird thing to say because Fighter (the class) actually gets BETTER at using heavy armor and it makes no sense to not use it. Now, that might hurt Paladins and Cavaliers.
So, you are saying that if you change the environmental effects rules, it's worse to wear heavy armor? Yeah, having a dick GM DOES make it worse to wear heavy armor.
Fighters should get a bonus to the penalty anyway due to having armor training. Of course, casters should have Endure Elements prepared for long treks in the jungle.
So uh, when the when someone says commando, I think of either a stealthy well practiced martial character who can track and raid AKA the ranger or um, well, going without underwear; where I'm in agreement with AM BARBARIAN.
However, this whole thread seems to devolved into a futile "Which is best class (in world without magic-shops)?" debate...
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Opportunities to craft magic items are few and far between--we don't even have many scrolls.
That makes no sense. Party can't take a break for 1 day to craft a scroll of a spell? You never sleep?
It doesn't make sense unless DM forces extra mechanics to prevent it.
Like requiring you to skin evey monster for components.
There are some holdovers from previous editions. For example, you don't get to choose your starting spells. Even as a bard; some of it is random, and although you're a spontaneous caster, you still have a spellbook ("songbook").
As for crafting time, we're officers on a ship, so we can't just stop for a day--that wizard has a day job! It also means that our time on land is limited and we're running from A to B the entire time.
Furthermore, you can forget wealth by level. We're usually too poor to be able to buy the components for anything.
As far as time constraints go you can use that:
First of all carry all of your needed equipment (heat soure, materials etc.) for crafting in a big bag of holding.
Be wearing the ring for at least a week.
Do not do anything at all for a full day, do not prepare spells, do not craft and don't do anything (so that we deal with that 24 vs day in the rules).
Now the day after you did nothing:
1)You awake at the same time as your rest party.
2)Spent 1 hour to prepare your spells (i assume wizard without fast study).
3)Spent the next 13 hours with your group (gather equipment, unset camp, adventuring, setting camp, take first watch etc.).
4)Cast rope trick (might be needing a rod of extend here). (this happens during the last hour of step 3).
5)Unload your crafting equipment and have your party help you move it into the extradimensional space you created. (this happens during the last hour of step 3).
6)Go in your extradimensional space you created with your spell.
7)Be sure to take a cage with 7 hamsters with you.
8)Craft for 8 hours (and since you are doing it the normal way you get the full benefit of 8 hours crafting).
9)Pack your equipment and sleep for 2 hours (be sure to thank your nice little ring).
10)Go to step 1 and repeat.
Now as you see with that 9 steps you don't violate the rule of preparing spells more than once per day or the rule of crafting for a maximum of 8 hours, and it only costs you 3 things:
1)a ring of sustenance.
2)one of your 1st level spell slots since you needed for the rope trick. (make sure you prepare one each day)
3)maybe one of your uses of your lesser rod of extend.
4)a big bag of holding.
I hope that it's clear enough.
Sure it isn't as easy to be done in a low magic game as it is in a normal game but i think that it can be done.
As for crafting time, we're officers on a ship, so we can't just stop for a day--that wizard has a day job! It also means that our time on land is limited and we're running from A to B the entire time.
Then blow your DM up by demanding the enhanced travel as the per day chart assumes an 8 hr day and 8 hours of rest if you are travelling 16 hours a day then you deserve to get the benefit of it. other wise you have 8 hours of down time a day.
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Then blow your DM up by demanding the enhanced travel as the per day chart assumes an 8 hr day and 8 hours of rest if you are travelling 16 hours a day then you deserve to get the benefit of it. other wise you have 8 hours of down time a day.
As for crafting time, we're officers on a ship, so we can't just stop for a day--that wizard has a day job! It also means that our time on land is limited and we're running from A to B the entire time.
Yeah, I know that lots of people are saying, "fire your DM, he's being too rough."
My point is that you can't expect the rest of the rules to continue to work in your favor if magic items are rare.
Then blow your DM up by demanding the enhanced travel as the per day chart assumes an 8 hr day and 8 hours of rest if you are travelling 16 hours a day then you deserve to get the benefit of it. other wise you have 8 hours of down time a day.
As for crafting time, we're officers on a ship, so we can't just stop for a day--that wizard has a day job! It also means that our time on land is limited and we're running from A to B the entire time.
Yeah, I know that lots of people are saying, "fire your DM, he's being too rough."
My point is that you can't expect the rest of the rules to continue to work in your favor if magic items are rare.
Actually you can or he can expect a summary removal of position. To play a low magic item game is one thing although it takes a lot more tweaking than most folks suspect. But to begin to invalidate other non magic sections of the rules just indicates he either has not done all that work and is being random and arbitrary and that sounds like an adversarial situation rather than folks getting together for a good time.
Contrary to what some overly vocal people might say, there is no one class that is better than another in a low magic setting if the GM takes into account that it is a low magic setting.
You GM will need to take into account that you don't have access to magic like you would in a different setting. The encounters will need the GM to ensure that they aren't too potent. The higher level your characters become, the more this will become an issue. Spontaneous casters and divine casters tend to fare better because they don't have to learn new things like prepared casters.
Non-magic using classes can do well for quite a while. They have lots of ways to improve their attacks and defenses. In a well played group, you should see more Aid Another actions and probably some Teamwork feats getting taken more often. I would also suspect that you will see more tactics being used. The players will be more creative because they have to be.
Depending on the type of campaign, I would consider Cavalier or Inquisitor just for the Teamwork feats alone. However any class that comes with a companion (familiars less so) can be very useful as well.
What do you want out of your character? What are you trying to accomplish? Besides being low (access to) magic, what else do you know about the campaign?
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Actually you can or he can expect a summary removal of position. To play a low magic item game is one thing although it takes a lot more tweaking than most folks suspect. But to begin to invalidate other non magic sections of the rules just indicates he either has not done all that work and is being random and arbitrary and that sounds like an adversarial situation rather than folks getting together for a good time.
The group's having fun. The house rules are all written down.
Actually you can or he can expect a summary removal of position. To play a low magic item game is one thing although it takes a lot more tweaking than most folks suspect. But to begin to invalidate other non magic sections of the rules just indicates he either has not done all that work and is being random and arbitrary and that sounds like an adversarial situation rather than folks getting together for a good time.The group's having fun. The house rules are all written down.
And is the house rule written down that you do not have the 3 8hr blocks of time each day? If not guess what he's not being straight forward with all his house rules.
Also if you are truthfully having fun why bring up the topic for discussion?
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Actually you can or he can expect a summary removal of position. To play a low magic item game is one thing although it takes a lot more tweaking than most folks suspect. But to begin to invalidate other non magic sections of the rules just indicates he either has not done all that work and is being random and arbitrary and that sounds like an adversarial situation rather than folks getting together for a good time.The group's having fun. The house rules are all written down.And is the house rule written down that you do not have the 3 8hr blocks of time each day? If not guess what he's not being straight forward with all his house rules.
Also if you are truthfully having fun why bring up the topic for discussion?
I'm bringing up the topic as an example of a world where magic items are rare AND the caster doesn't dominate.
As for the schedule, it's a ship. We have schedules, tasks, we're helping steer the vessel, we know when we're on duty, off duty, all that. Outside of that, we keep track of our hours when we're on land, because they're all valuable to us.
I'm bringing up the topic as an example of a world where magic items are rare AND the caster doesn't dominate.
Not really all it does is indicate that a poor implementation of the rules is being used no where did you show that somehow lack of crafting was making casters=TEH SUXORS. Unless I really missed a huge section of text somewhere
As for the schedule, it's a ship. We have schedules, tasks, we're helping steer the vessel, we know when we're on duty, off duty, all that. Outside of that, we keep track of our hours when we're on land, because they're all valuable to us.
I am playing in a nautical game right now i have an 8 hr duty usually at the helm or on deck crew barring combats etc. I still have the other 8 hours to do personal things like crafting when I am not sleeping.
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I'm bringing up the topic as an example of a world where magic items are rare AND the caster doesn't dominate.Not really all it does is indicate that a poor implementation of the rules is being used no where did you show that somehow lack of crafting was making casters=TEH SUXORS. Unless I really missed a huge section of text somewhere
You've just changed what I said from "doesn't dominate" to "TEH SUXORS."
I'm bringing up the topic as an example of a world where magic items are rare AND the caster doesn't dominate.Not really all it does is indicate that a poor implementation of the rules is being used no where did you show that somehow lack of crafting was making casters=TEH SUXORS. Unless I really missed a huge section of text somewhere
You've just changed what I said from "doesn't dominate" to "TEH SUXORS."
No what I am asking for is for you to provide some sort of data to affirm your claim that in this case the casters are still not dominant. In other words please show your work/examples. I don't see it anywhere else in the thread. If I missed a post where you laid out how this particular variation doesn't still give the edge to the classes that can at least temporarily overcome challenges such as DR etc vs those who are non casters (AM BARBARIAN AND HIS LARGE NUMBER OF SUPERNATURAL RAGE ABILITIES EXCEPTED) please show me where that post is.
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No what I am asking for is for you to provide some sort of data to affirm your claim that in this case the casters are still not dominant. In other words please show your work/examples. I don't see it anywhere else in the thread. If I missed a post where you laid out how this particular variation doesn't still give the edge to the classes that can at least temporarily overcome challenges such as DR etc vs those who are non casters (AM BARBARIAN AND HIS LARGE NUMBER OF SUPERNATURAL RAGE ABILITIES EXCEPTED) please show me where that post is.
I'm bringing up the topic as an example of a world where magic items are rare AND the caster doesn't dominate.Not really all it does is indicate that a poor implementation of the rules is being used no where did you show that somehow lack of crafting was making casters=TEH SUXORS. Unless I really missed a huge section of text somewhere
You've just changed what I said from "doesn't dominate" to "TEH SUXORS."
The campaign is perennially low level. Over a year ago, we started at 2nd level. We are now 3rd.
We've spent a good portion of that time with my bard being the group's only spellcaster--and I have no crafting feats. Now, we have a cleric/wizard, who hasn't written any scrolls himself yet.
There are a number of things that the campaign will never have, by house rule, and DR/magic is one of them.
We do have an evil necromancer's spellbook, but no one has dared touch it. My bard toyed with figuring it out (and taking that level of necromancer to do so), but I've been informed that evil PCs aren't allowed, and I'd have to be really careful because a lot of necromancy is evil. Since gaining levels are so rare, I haven't bothered to try.
Please, give me a list of the situations in which a caster dominates, and I'll let you know which ones occur in the campaign.
24 hours in a day.
assuming 8 hours of duty, 8 hours of rest, and 8 unused hours, it takes one of those 8 to even prepare the spells. it is also assumed that breakfast, lunch, and dinner are typically an hour apiece. taking 3 more off those 8. leaving you with 4 hours remaining. a large portion of those 4 hours are spent on miscellanious mundane duties such as hygiene, potty breaks, and similar stuff.
The campaign is perennially low level. Over a year ago, we started at 2nd level. We are now 3rd.
We've spent a good portion of that time with my bard being the group's only spellcaster--and I have no crafting feats. Now, we have a cleric/wizard, who hasn't written any scrolls himself yet.
There are a number of things that the campaign will never have, by house rule, and DR/magic is one of them.
Please, give me a list of the situations in which a caster dominates, and I'll let you know which ones occur in the campaign.
OK now we are getting somewhere with the amount of details. I dont really see what being on the boat has to do with that one way or the other besides the fact that you are not getting the full amount of travelling done per 24 hours you should be by doing 16 rather than 8 hour days IF that is what is occurring. Providing these details to begin with would make things easier for us to have a meaningful discussion please attempt to provide them in the future rather than me or others having to ask over several posts.
But neither of you casters have made use of endure elements during stormy weather to help reduce the chance of disease, or made use of know direction in the event of becoming lost at sea. Crafters blessing/ make whole mending/ prestidigitation to expidite ship repairs and cleaning? You have seen no opportunities to use your spell lists to enhance your seafaring voyage? Item creation is nifty but far from the only thing a cleric or wizard brings to the table, as far a magic goes. Nor does it explain why if you are only doing 8 hour shifts with the crew how some low level scrolls haven't had at least the possibility of bring made to provide some of the same spells to other crew members raising your esteem in their eyes if for no other reason that to prevent (or foment if you hate the captain) mutiny even with much lower than WBL.
24 hours in a day.
assuming 8 hours of duty, 8 hours of rest, and 8 unused hours, it takes one of those 8 to even prepare the spells. it is also assumed that breakfast, lunch, and dinner are typically an hour apiece. taking 3 more off those 8. leaving you with 4 hours remaining. a large portion of those 4 hours are spent on miscellanious mundane duties such as hygiene, potty breaks, and similar stuff.
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
Why its like they accounted for all of the stuff you just mentioned in the rules.
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But neither of you casters have made use of endure elements during stormy weather to help reduce the chance of disease, or made use of know direction in the event of becoming lost at sea. Crafters blessing/ make whole mending/ prestidigitation to expidite ship repairs and cleaning? You have seen no opportunities to use your spell lists to enhance your seafaring voyage? Item creation is nifty but far from the only thing a cleric or wizard brings to the table, as far a magic goes. Nor does it explain why if you are only doing 8 hour shifts with the crew how some low level scrolls haven't had at least the possibility of bring made to provide some of the same spells to other crew members raising your esteem in their eyes if for no other reason that to prevent (or foment if you hate the captain) mutiny even with much lower than WBL.
Bard's don't get Know Direction(which only tells you north, not where you are) or Endure Elements (which only protects from hot or cold environments, not storms). Mending works on an item 1lb/per caster level, so the third level bard isn't going to be working on a ship. Prestidigitation would be slower then simply mopping. Giving someone a scroll who can't use it is pretty useless. Scrolls need supplies to be made, if you don't have those supplies, you can't make them. Your examples don't make any sense.
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OK now we are getting somewhere with the amount of details. I dont really see what being on the boat has to do with that one way or the other besides the fact that you are not getting the full amount of travelling done per 24 hours you should be by doing 16 rather than 8 hour days IF that is what is occurring. Providing these details to begin with would make things easier for us to have a meaningful discussion please attempt to provide them in the future rather than me or others having to ask over several posts.
Honestly, I haven't been sure what you were asking for. Also, changing my words around (see "doesn't dominate -> TEH SUXORS" above) doesn't put me in the mood of cooperation. How about we both agree to cooperate more?
But neither of you casters have made use of endure elements during stormy weather to help reduce the chance of disease, or made use of know direction in the event of becoming lost at sea. Crafters blessing/ make whole mending/ prestidigitation to expidite ship repairs and cleaning? You have seen no opportunities to use your spell lists to enhance your seafaring voyage? Item creation is nifty but far from the only thing a cleric or wizard brings to the table, as far a magic goes. Nor does it explain why if you are only doing 8 hour shifts with the crew how some low level scrolls haven't had at least the possibility of bring made to provide some of the same spells to other crew members raising your esteem in their eyes if for no other reason that to prevent (or foment if you hate the captain) mutiny even with much lower than WBL.
My bard uses Animate Rope all the time--that comes in handy on a sailing ship. He doesn't have Know Direction or Endure Elements; I don't know about my companion.
Also, a side effect of the low magic item environment is that I'm the only party member with UMD anyway--so I'm the only other person who could possibly use a scroll. Just the fact that I picked up a wand and attempted to use it has left everyone else in the group--DM included--flabbergasted at the possibility.
Finally, perhaps you missed my mention of a lack of funds above. You have to spend money for the components to make scrolls. You can't go to market while at sea. If you land on a tropical island, you might not have the market there. If you land in port, sure you can buy the components--but once again, the lack of crafters has meant that we haven't really been in port and with crafters at the same time.
Bard's don't get Know Direction(which only tells you north, not where you are) or Endure Elements (which only protects from hot or cold environments, not storms). Mending works on an item 1lb/per caster level, so the third level bard isn't going to be working on a ship. Prestidigitation would be slower then simply mopping. Giving someone a scroll who can't use it is pretty useless. Scrolls need supplies to be made, if you don't have those supplies, you can't make them. Your examples don't make any sense.
Know direction allows you to not have to use just dead reckoning if you have no sextant.
Things like ropes, the cooks knives, a comapass, sextant, lanterns etc can break and mending can work on them.
Ohh wow no one has know direction sure is good you could mend the sextant to help us make more accurate navigational readings.
Having scrolls on hand means you can effect more than your daily allotment of spells in crew members even if they cant cast it themselves.
I think all of those make plenty of sense.
True you need unspecified type materials to make scrolls and this is where the rubber meets the road for low magic games can this McGuffin material be found. in some games no in some killing an octopus and extracting its ink glands may count towards that lack of definitive aspects "crafting materials" Of course it does beg the question why the GM didn't use the PFS Scribe Scroll substitution for wizards?
Honestly, I haven't been sure what you were asking for. Also, changing my words around (see "doesn't dominate -> TEH SUXORS" above) doesn't put me in the mood of cooperation. How about we both agree to cooperate more?
Actually as you made several posts before I ever made that comment I think more of the onus is on you.
As to lack of funds you are saying your character or the other does not have 25GP worth of loot or goods to trade to make a level 1 scroll? How much booty do you have? You at least had a wand in your possession to attempt to UMD it so I have to assume that you do have a wee bit more than that.
I figure a bard has some cash for wine women and song (or to pay for another's while gathering information).
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Honestly, I haven't been sure what you were asking for. Also, changing my words around (see "doesn't dominate -> TEH SUXORS" above) doesn't put me in the mood of cooperation. How about we both agree to cooperate more?Actually as you made several posts before I ever made that comment I think more of the onus is on you.
Please stop telling me what to do.
Please stop telling me what to do.Honestly, I haven't been sure what you were asking for. Also, changing my words around (see "doesn't dominate -> TEH SUXORS" above) doesn't put me in the mood of cooperation. How about we both agree to cooperate more?Actually as you made several posts before I ever made that comment I think more of the onus is on you.
Actually those words like "I think" mean that I am no more telling you what to do that you just told me what to do.
I will gladly however cease replying or asking you questions in threads as it appears that you do not understand HOW I am trying to communicate with you.