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Okay now that I got a new player and my OLD player (the one that didn't care much for the fact I didn't allow an atheist cleric), some how convinced my new one that an atheist paladin works.
I can't find a precedent. I just want to know, what to do here. I'd like a little back up. I know I could be a dick. (Again.) But I just...dunno.
Okay now that I got a new player and my OLD player (the one that didn't care much for the fact I didn't allow an atheist cleric), some how convinced my new one that an atheist paladin works.
I can't find a precedent. I just want to know, what to do here. I'd like a little back up. I know I could be a dick. (Again.) But I just...dunno.
When you say "atheist" what do you mean?
Doesn't literally believe in the deities? Because a short trip with a plane shift spell pretty much makes that idea incredibly foolish.
Or do you mean, just not dedicated to any deities?
Neither cleric nor pally can be atheists, at least not if they want spells or powers. They are both "Holy/unholy" warriors. No god is going to give them powers if they don't believe in said god. The very idea is ridiculous.
Now an atheist (insert any other class) would be fine.
I can't find any crunch in the Paladin class requiring that they serve a diety. The section on the paladin's code for instance never once mentions gods.
In the fluff paragraph at the begining of the class though there's the sentence "... paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve." That to me says among other things that they serve a god.
That's all I could find in the class description itself.
As in all things I suppose it's DM discretion. I for one would be inclined against allowing an atheist paladin but to each their own.
Torger
SPells, cha to saves, divine health, lay on hands, special mount, etc. Basically an atheist pally is a fighter without the feats.
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The class description isn't what I'm basing it off. I'm basing it off the fact I'm running Carrion Crown. I have an atheist (he doesn't believe in ANY gods) monk. He was going atheist cleric until there was a posting by James Jacobs and he shut that one down. Now I have a new player who heard about my player being disallowed an atheist cleric. NOW he wants (I believe) an atheist paladin. In Carrion Crown.
Help....
The class description isn't what I'm basing it off. I'm basing it off the fact I'm running Carrion Crown. I have an atheist (he doesn't believe in ANY gods) monk. He was going atheist cleric until there was a posting by James Jacobs and he shut that one down. Now I have a new player who heard about my player being disallowed an atheist cleric. NOW he wants (I believe) an atheist paladin. In Carrion Crown.
Help....
I'd let him play an atheist pally and treat it mechanically like a ex-pally. In my mind "holy warrior" screams theist. It's your game, but I'd push him toward a fighter.
ALso, monks train to perfect themselves. Pallys get their power through prayer.
Clerics and pallys cant be atheists. ANY OTHER CLASS can.
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Not sure of the "No Non-God-Worshipping-Paladins" thing, but as far as Golarion canon goes, there are no "non-god" Clerics.
At your table, however, all's well that ends well.
My latest PC is a Paladin of Aroden - modeled almost completely on the Warhammer 40K Space Marines & their "worship" of the fallen God-Emperor of Mankind.
Now I have a caveat,
Clerics (and by extension Pallys) can revere an ideal and get power that way. But that's not the same thing as Athiest. WHen a cleric reveres good (for example) a good diety sees that they are worthy and they 'sponsor' them to do good in the world.
I would think though that if that same good cleric actively said "the gods don't exist" cant see a diety sponsoring them. Maybe, but the relationship would be tenuous at best.
The class description isn't what I'm basing it off. I'm basing it off the fact I'm running Carrion Crown. I have an atheist (he doesn't believe in ANY gods) monk. He was going atheist cleric until there was a posting by James Jacobs and he shut that one down. Now I have a new player who heard about my player being disallowed an atheist cleric. NOW he wants (I believe) an atheist paladin. In Carrion Crown.
Help....
For my money an atheist paladin is just as ludicris as an atheist cleric. Perhaps even more so.
My question is why does the character want to play a divinely powered atheist. Is it because he wants to fill the healer niche but isn't into religon? Or is it simply because he enjoyes the silliness of the idea. If it's the former then I'd recomend a hedge witch (Ultimate Magic Archetype), a bard or an oracle. If it's the latter then best of luck with that one.
All that being said what anyone on this board thinks (up to and including James Jacobs) is irrelevant. It's your game and if you're cool with atheist Paladins then giver.
Torger
P.S. I'm assuming this isn't a PFS game otherwise there are some people on this board whose opinions are very much relevant.
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Not sure of the "No Non-God-Worshipping-Paladins" thing, but as far as Golarion canon goes, there are no "non-god" Clerics.
Yeah I know. This is kind of how this keeps going.
At your table, however, all's well that ends well.
There are days I wish I believed that...
My latest PC is a Paladin of Aroden - modeled almost completely on the Warhammer 40K Space Marines & their "worship" of the fallen God-Emperor of Mankind.
I could see a paladin of Aroden. Honestly. I just can't see an atheist paladin. (Hell I almost BOUGHT into SKR's reasoning for Paladins of Asmodeus!!!)
Just because he doesn't worship a deity doesn't mean he can't be granted divine power from a deity that supports his actions and ideals. If he is lawful good and embodies all that that entails to the level that is expected of a paladin, Iomadae or Erastil might still choose to grant him positive energy powers in order to fight evil and spread good. I'd say let him.
If he means true athesist then i would say no.
If he means no specific patron but dedicated to a philosphy in good yes.
And yeah how does an Atheist even begin to exist in a setting with miracles and such.
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If he means true athesist then i would say no.
If he means no specific patron but dedicated to a philosphy in good yes.And yeah how does an Atheist even begin to exist in a setting with miracles and such.
I got an atheist monk. At least there I'm less concerned.
I just don't see him (the atheist paladin) working out just as well as say a paladin of Saranaere and/or one of Iomadae.
I would have to declare shenanninagains on atheist clerics and pallys. No specific god, but upholds an ideal, that's cool. Actively saying gods don't exist, Shennanigains.
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All that being said what anyone on this board thinks (up to and including James Jacobs) is irrelevant. It's your game and if you're cool with atheist Paladins then giver.
Yes it is but it helps when I got a little bit more backing. I'm not ALWAYS a strong GM. I'm the guy that just wants to run the game, have fun, scare the crap out of my players, and make memorable sessions.
Not...this.
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All that being said what anyone on this board thinks (up to and including James Jacobs) is irrelevant. It's your game and if you're cool with atheist Paladins then giver.Yes it is but it helps when I got a little bit more backing. I'm not ALWAYS a strong GM. I'm the guy that just wants to run the game, have fun, scare the crap out of my players, and make memorable sessions.
Not...this.
Point out that in Golarion those Pally powers come from someone and that someone isnt handing out powers to those who deny they exist.
All that being said what anyone on this board thinks (up to and including James Jacobs) is irrelevant. It's your game and if you're cool with atheist Paladins then giver.Yes it is but it helps when I got a little bit more backing. I'm not ALWAYS a strong GM. I'm the guy that just wants to run the game, have fun, scare the crap out of my players, and make memorable sessions.
Not...this.
SHENNANIGAINS!!!
And yeah how does an Atheist even begin to exist in a setting with miracles and such.
Miracles, Wizardry, Witch Craft, Sorcery etc etc what's the differance to the lay person really.
If one accepts that wizards can alter reality and they in no way claim to be agents of gods then is it not concievible that the "miraculous" powers of priests are simply the same magic veil in a cloak of religion?
Could not priests simply be wizards with a good scam going?
Sure anyone with actual magical training will tell you there's a fundamental difference in the sources of arcane magic a divine magic but how many people have that really?
Would this be a popular or commonly held belief? Probably not but I can see someone believing it.
Torger
I'm the guy that just wants to run the game, have fun, scare the crap out of my players, and make memorable sessions.
That makes for some of the best games ^_^ I'd always rather a DM be more focuses on making things fun then getting caught up in minutia. Not that this is minutia. The source of divine magic/powers can have a profound impact on the game world afterall. Still... what was I saying?
Torger
And disproving them comes even easier at lower levels it can be harder to explain but by level 9 its shown that since only those who revere a god can restore a soul to a dead body that their is a seperation between the powers.
Hell even at lower levels some spells come only to those of the faith not to mention Domain powers.
The differnce comes also from method when those of the faith have no hinderences in armor and yet the reality shapers have to train to get around this it all adds up to even someone with 8 INT.
Thanks guys. I do appreciate the support. I'll wait and see if anyone else chimes in.
I will however stick to my guns: Paladins and clerics in Golorian = you need a god.
I support that.
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I'm the guy that just wants to run the game, have fun, scare the crap out of my players, and make memorable sessions.
That makes for some of the best games ^_^ I'd always rather a DM be more focuses on making things fun then getting caught up in minutia. Not that this is minutia. The source of divine magic/powers can have a profound impact on the game world afterall. Still... what was I saying?
Torger
The only minutia I'm concerned about is making the soundtrack work more often. That's on me. Otherwise I feel pretty darn decent about the fact I'm running Carrion Crown pretty much as is.
Pretty much being I scare the crap out of them singing that skipping song with the 5 prisoners from Harrowstone.
I'm the guy that just wants to run the game, have fun, scare the crap out of my players, and make memorable sessions.
That makes for some of the best games ^_^ I'd always rather a DM be more focuses on making things fun then getting caught up in minutia. Not that this is minutia. The source of divine magic/powers can have a profound impact on the game world afterall. Still... what was I saying?
Torger
The only minutia I'm concerned about is making the soundtrack work more often. That's on me. Otherwise I feel pretty darn decent about the fact I'm running Carrion Crown pretty much as is.
Pretty much being I scare the crap out of them singing that skipping song with the 5 prisoners from Harrowstone.
if you havent gotten to that see if you can get some creepy sounding little kids to sing it for you even taped it will give them the shivers.
Paizo ruled that Atheist Paladins and Rangers are OK in Golarion,
after some rumblings to the contrary by James Jacobs, who was apparently giving more his personal take on it.
These types of distinctions don´t really translate 1:1 between the real world and fantasy Golarion,
but I take it that while few doubt that powerful and perhaps immortal beings of power do exist within the Universe,
Golarion Atheists do not want to align their soul with serving one of these deities, but prefer to live as their own being.
There is really two separate things related to Atheism in Golarion: attitude toward Gods, and attitude towards afterlife.
Folks! I think there's a lot of chaff in the water here, and people misinterpreting each other. I'll give it another shot:
*As Seeker pointed out, the RULES present an option for non-deity-worshiping clerics, because that's an option we want people to have for their home games. It's part of any well-stocked toolbox. In the SETTING, we say that clerics have to worship gods or other divine beings to get their powers.
*Non-cleric divine casters do NOT need to worship a god, or any divine being. Their magic comes through faith, ideas, personal belief and understanding--whether it's a veneration of nature, a belief in mysteries they don't understand, faith in themselves and their own mystical abilities, etc. It's magic that comes conviction rather than study and experimentation. As such, they can be atheists by many definitions (such as rejecting the idea that gods deserve worship) without losing their abilities. Could atheism conflict with their ability to cast divine spells? I guess so, if you wanted to adjust the flavor of your druid so that he deifies nature, then loses his faith in nature and actively rejects it... but that's starting to get pretty convoluted. Or you could have an atheist inquisitor who decides that his powers are granted by gods, and thus refuses to use them... but there are probably others atheist inquisitors who reject that idea and see their powers as innate or manifestations of their conviction. Outside of clerics, atheism is a flavor thing, which means it's up to you. But long story short: only clerics are barred from being atheists in setting canon.
*Atheism has many different meanings on Golarion, as defined by the people who believe it. There's no single "Golarion" atheism. I've personally created both characters who reject the idea of worshiping gods (see the upcoming Death's Heretic) and who outright refuse to believe in their existence (my character Kirin from the NPC guide, who thinks all divine casters are sorcerers afraid to take responsibility for their actions). Both are atheists.
As Jacobs has noted, atheism is ultimately a flavor issue, and thus best left up to players and GMs.
Hope that helps!
EDIT: Besides an official justification for it, to have a working flavor reason for Atheist Paladins, I think you have to approach one´s view to the Paladin class as an exemplary of ´Cosmic Lawful Goodness´, which seems like a concept that IS represented in the game at many levels... The Positive Energy = Good relationship, the Sun itself being a portal the Plane of Positive Energy (which isn´t itself further associated to any of the LG deities, beyond the Good/Healing connection), the cosmic role of the good planes, etc...
I mean, as the opposite of the Atheist Paladin, you have the Pluri-theistic Paladin who loves any and all gods (as long as they are all LG), but doesn´t have any particularly strong relationship with any give one. If your Paladin sees their particular god as the exemplar of Cosmic Lawful Goodness, they can indeed have that Deity as the focus of their life/powers, but that isn´t something that´s necessarily required in-game. In any case, in most locales, Atheism seems like something that would be regarded as REALLY REALLY wierd (not so much not dedicating oneself to ONE god, but not liking any gods in general, as principle), and Carrion Crown seems like THE AP that you would run into such type of attitudes. You should also query the player what their character believes/opines re: specific topics like the afterlife, etc.
And disproving them comes even easier at lower levels it can be harder to explain but by level 9 its shown that since only those who revere a god can restore a soul to a dead body that their is a seperation between the powers.
Hell even at lower levels some spells come only to those of the faith not to mention Domain powers.
The differnce comes also from method when those of the faith have no hinderences in armor and yet the reality shapers have to train to get around this it all adds up to even someone with 8 INT.
Oh, no argument. It would take a remarkable sort of stubborn ignorance to continue to stick to atheism through out an entire adventuring career but we aren't really talking about people who've spent a career adventuring. We're talking about a starting point and I for one can see someone (even in a fantasy world) coming from a position of atheism.
Torger
Btw this does raise good point that I neglected: Do Inquisitors need gods?
"Although inquisitors are dedicated to a deity, they are above the normal rules and conventions of the church" APG pg 38
That looks like a yes to me.
Torger
if you havent gotten to that see if you can get some creepy sounding little kids to sing it for you even taped it will give them the shivers.Got a link?
Quandry,
I tend to favor James Jacobs since he's the guy in charge of Golorian.
No i got my neices to do it on my cell phone but if you've the Nightmare on Elm Street movies you get the gist. (kinda figure thats where the idea came from)
I guess I should clarify...do Inquisitors IN Golorian need gods?"Although inquisitors are dedicated to a deity, they are above the normal rules and conventions of the church" APG pg 38
That looks like a yes to me.
Torger
Yes as far as i know only oracles and pallies get to slide on that one.
Nope dont classify hippies with my religious folk.
Basicly oracale pally cleric and inquisitor get their powers from deific sources. So there is confusion on whether or not they need to worship one.
Druids and Rangers just do the nature thing no reason to brign organized religion into it.
I think Inquisitors are in the same boat as Clerics.. they both recieve Domains after all,
and ´Domains of Ideals´ are definitely not the thing in Golarion.
Maybe the PFS Guide has something to say re: Inquisitors and Gods?
Druids, Rangers, Oracles, and Pallies are all ´Golarion Atheist´ legit AFAIK.
The iconic Oracle apparently was/is an atheist.
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I think Inquisitors are in the same boat as Clerics.. they both recieve Domains after all,
and ´Domains of Ideals´ are definitely not the thing in Golarion.
Maybe the PFS Guide has something to say re: Inquisitors and Gods?Druids, Rangers, Oracles, and Pallies are all ´Golarion Atheist´ legit AFAIK.
The iconic Oracle apparently was/is an atheist.
Oracle is just a way to get around most other divine spellcasting sources. Atheists, maybe. But they certainly aren't empowered by a divinity like clerics in Golorian are.
I always assumed the same held true to Paladins.
Would be kind of neat plot device/character flavor to have a historically aetheist individual still being granted the powers of their chosen class. Perhaps even haunted by the fact.
I guess it could work but you would need to do some thinking I guess. I would kind of go with the idea of a god manipualting the PC, said PC is an atheist Paladin fine, where does he get his powers? Does he care as long as he has them? Is there a God that plays with him? (kind of like the Greek mythology thing of gods and mortals), and who says said God is a God...demon/devil pulling his strings??
Just an idea..
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Rangers and druids get their spells from either nature or a nature god. I don't think Gozreh cares if you're worshiping him as him or him as nature. Nature worship may be older than the gods. (see the green way)
With oracles its a very literal case of not mattering if you believe in god or not. The god believes in YOU and you are their plaything.
I can't see an atheist paladin or a maltheist (gods exist but they're bad/don't bother with them) one
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I actually much prefere all Divine Classes, but specifically Clerics to recieve their power not from a deity, but rather from their own faith in something. Now that faith can be in a deity, but doesn't have to be. This allows for players to put more efferot and creativity into their own characters beliefs, and also opens the doors more for moral issues in the divine classes. Said characters are still held to a dogma, of sorts, it is just a completely personal guide, and them breaking from it causes lapses in faith, thus the potentual for them to lose their divine abilities. Additionally, I think it makes a nice break between Arcane and Divine magic, much better than the very limited divine = deity mentality.
At the same time, I also require the player to explain what it is they really believe. Similar to Eberron, alignment has little to do with it, but rather it is soley based on their own personal faith.
Now, when you say atheist, I'm taking you to mean a character that doesn't have a patron deity. Which is more along the lines of what I'm meaning. If you mean the more litteral they don't believe in the existence of deities (or magic, or fey, or demons, or etc. . .) then that essentually requires a character with a 2 Int, Wis, and Cha, (at most), who is Chaotic Stupid.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Might I suggest an agnostic Paladin? Think Sanya.
Or a Mister Terrific style athiest? To whit, Michael accepts there are other powers out there. (He's worked with Etrigan, Ragman, etc) but doesn't believe they're 'gods' or 'demons' as they're traditionally understood. Basically to the Athiest Paladin they're poweful beings, but can be quantified and understood.
I would make one change to the Athiest Paladin though. If he falls, he can't just do atonement and get better. If you don't follow a god, how can he make it all better by forgiving you?
While Paladins in Golarion do not have to worship a god, they are divinely powered. An Aethist has rejected the divine.
So I would say, God less, sure. Aethist, No.
If it was me all Divine classes would require a god and in my home games do.
While Paladins in Golarion do not have to worship a god, they are divinely powered. An Aethist has rejected the divine.
That's excellent phrasing and basically sums up what I've been trying to say. Though I would change it to"...Actively rejects the divine." Its the difference between being atheist and simply non-religious.