Underhanded Talent, Quick Draw, and Bandit archetype

[A Brigand!]

an interesting talent, which allows you to draw a concealed weapon during a surprise round, attack someone with it, and instead of rolling your sneak attack, it deals max damage.

Problems: You can only make a standard action during a surprise round, not leaving enough time to both draw and stab with a hidden weapon. (even with Quick Draw drawing a hidden weapon is a move action)

Solution: Bandit archetype (Rogue)

level 4 Ambush (replaces uncanny dodge): during surprise round, make a swift, move, and standard action.

Assume I am using Underhanded and Quick Draw with the Bandit ability, Ambush.

Questions:
1.) the talent makes no mention of whether the target of the underhanded attack can see you, or whether the attack must be melee... can I draw a hidden weapon while hidden and attack with it from range? (hand crossbow for example)

2.) can i draw a hidden weapon while moving? like while moving down a hill, drawing a dagger, and stabbing the target with it? (in pathfinder, you can draw a weapon as a free action while moving if you have BAB +1... what if its hidden? a swift action??)

3.) Can I hide a weapon in a glove of storing? glove of store makes the item super small, and therefore easy to hide... but its also a free action to retrieve. can I do that, move, then stab the target?

Do I have this right?

Thanks in Advance Everyone!

[Maxximilius]

There are some solutions to use Underhanded to it's fullest :

- Bandit archetype with Quick Draw
- "Betrayer" feat (draw and make an attack as an immediate action against a target you just made friendly through Diplomacy)
- "Deft Palm" talent (conceal a weapon while holding it in plain sight, thus making it so you don't need to draw it during the surprise round)

If you stack these, you could, after one minute used to influence someone's attitude one step better (Bandit + Betrayer):

- Immediate action ; draw a weapon and attack with it (underhanded, full sneak attack damage)
- Standard Action ; attack again with drawed weapon (underhanded, full sneak attack damage)
- Move Action ; conceal your weapon with a -20 penalty ; move away...
- Be ready to sneak again if you win initiative as long as the foe stays flat-footed before it acts, or after the surprise round is over.

Or (Bandit) :

- Move action ; get concealed weapon in hand
- Standard action ; attack (underhanded for full sneak attack damage)

Or (vanilla Rogue + Deft Palm talent) :

- Sneak/charm your way to the enemy, weapon in hand (possible perception checks to find out for targets)
- Standard action ; begin surprise round, attack with held concealed weapon, underhanded for full sneak attack damage.

Note that in accordance with a good bluff check, you could bluff about not being the one who just killed a guard when another comes to see what happened.
Even a vanilla rogue, given at least 1 standard action equivalent beforehand (or a move action with -20), could use Deft Palm to conceal her weapon without needing to draw it, thus allowing her another surprise round with an attack action at full sneak damage against the guard.

EDIT : Btw...

1. I would say yes. You would still need to use a weapon which was concealed before the beginning of the surprise round.

2. No. At best, drawing a concealed weapon is a move action in itself, or part of "Betrayer"'s immediate action, which you don't use while moving since influencing someone pretty much needs you to communicate during one minute with said creature.

3. Well... you should ask your DM, but I guess it could work. I would maybe give the target a skill check to recognize the glove and understand it as a potential menace.

[Pannkakssylt]

I agree mostly, though the talent seems very wierd in that it actually wouldn't be of any use at all, except in combination with mentioned abilities. Which im quite sure the designers didn't intend.

"...using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about..."

I personally interpret this as so long the victim is unaware that the weapon or a copy of it exists in his/her vicinity when you strike/shoot, you may utilize this talent.

Interpreting "concealed" as not visible or otherwise dicernable to the victim. (Not necessarily by the use of Sleight of Hand, it might be invisible or behind a wall if the assassin is standing in a doorway)

Examples:

You meet your victim, having concealed the weapon beforehand. Trick him into turning his back to you, draw the weapon, and fire.

-Since combat wont start until you actually fire
(Combat would not start if you pulled out your weapon and put it on a nearby desk while the victim was looking the other way, might aswell pull it out and aim for his throat)
, at which point the victim neither sees nor knows about the weapon i think this qualifies.

However, considering the possibility of an assassin striking his victim, only wounding it slightly and escaping with an invisibility potion (or other method of hiding), repositioning himself, and striking again.

In this case i'd say this victim now is quite aware of the weapon in question, eventhough it's concealed from him.

If one reads the rules hardcore this should mean that throwing another shuriken at the victim would enable another use of the talent. Since it's actually not the same weapon, though firing another bolt from the same crossbow would not. Neither stiking with the same dagger again.

This seems quite silly, in case of the shurikens.

I would say that some atleast slightly different method of attacking the victim would be necessary. Shooting a crossbow, then become invisible and strike the victim from behind with a club should be valid.

Though using a dagger and then a starknife or maybe a shortsword is more a greyzone.