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I assume that you're human; As you have 2 feats at level 1, and you took the adopted Trait to get the orc trait toothy?
Other that...make sure to choose your ranger spells wisely. Kudos to playing to a theme.
Take a look at my Alias verix the Beast. It's a half orc shapeshifter ranger, not optimized, but going for a very Sabertooth feel. Not complete yet though.
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Ah, by the way, how would work using a one handed weapon and natural attacks, it was stated in the FAQ/Errata that one should use Bestiary rule instead of CRB, in Bestiary is stated that one should treat natural weapons as secondary in that case, so it should look like this?
Level 20 Bab 20
4 weapon attacks (20/15/10/5) with full strength
one claw and one bite attack (15) with half-strength
or just
1 weapon attack (20) full strength
one claw and one bite (15) half strength?
I'm going the multi attack route and a treat teh sweapons as secondar, in the military sense. Since we are focused on the claw attacks, which are primary natural attacks, the bite is a secondary attack, but is still used. An amulet of might fists will be helpful in boosting the attacks abilities. It is expensive though.
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Hei there,
I am currently trying to play a ranger shapeshifter.
I´ve roled this stats:
Str 19 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 15 Cha 13
Below is my advancement plan, I would like suggestions and perhaps corrections:what do you guys think? (the feats 1,2,3,4,5 and +1 Stat I am currently figuring what to choose)
Thanks in advance
Two questions for you to help solidify this build:
1. What are your base traits? You didn't list the ones you get at 1st Lvl.2. What are your first 2 Favored enemies you didn't list them either.
Ok let's first address a few issues in your build.
First, you do not qualify for Rending Fury (Rending Claws do not give you the Rend special ability which is required for that feat),
Second, you will be VERY unhappy with Cleave as your feat of choice (natural attack builds are geared around multiple attacks a round cleave prevents those extra attacks and you will do next to no damage with them).
Third Improved Natural Attack is a trap, it will net you on average 1 extra point of damage (1D4 =approx 2dam, 1D6 =approx3Dam), skip it.
Fourth, the most important stat you should consider increasing is STRENGTH. You will not need a Wis over 15 (14 actually is as high as you should go).
Finally your understand of mixing natural attacks and weapon attacks is a right as below.
4 weapon attacks (20/15/10/5) with full strength
one claw and one bite attack (15) with half-strength
Now my advice, DO NOT TAKE SHAPESHIFTER ARCHETYPE, you are giving up your favored Terrain bonus, your Camouflage and your Master Hunter ability for NOTHING. None of those abilities this archetype grants stack with any enhancement spell/item. This means no Belt of strength or longstrider spell, etc.
Stay a regular Ranger and just take the natural weapons as your combat style.
Now for your build let me suggest this instead:
Monk 1(master of Many Styles)/Ranger 19
Str 19 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 13 Wis 14 Cha 13
1 (Ranger 1), Power attack,Weapon Focus (Bite)
2 (monk 1), Dragon Style
3 Aspect of the beast:Claws, Weapon Focus (Claws)
4 Endurance, +1 Str
5 Feral Combat Training (claws)
6
7 Eldritch Claws, Dragon Ferocity
8 +1 Con
9 Feral Combat Training (Bite)
10
11 Multi-Attack, Boar Style or Snake Style
12 +1 Str
13 Feat 2
14
15 Feat 3
16 +1 Str
17 Feat 4
18
19 Feat 5
20 +1 Str
The changes I recommended will do this for you:
1-4 level, You act like a monk, using dragon style to hit HARD on a charge, then Claw/Claw/Bite until it dies.
5-8 Level, You'll start mixing your unarmed strikes (kicks, knees & Elbows) in with your Claws for maximum damage at no penalties.
Claw (bab+str)/Claw (bab+str)/Kick (bab+str)/Kick (bab -5 +str)/Bite (bab -5+ 1/2str)
Most of these attacks will be at x1.5 strength bonus from Dragon Ferocity and when you throw Power Attack on top of it you will hit HARD and often.
9-12, You will add your Bite into this routine and add a second style to benefit from your Monk level. Either boar to add 2D6 Bleed damage (so much better then the Rend feats) or Snake style to shoot your AC through the roof if you are concerned about getting hit (Blows favored Defense out of the water).
Your attack routine now looks like this:
Claw (Bab)/Claw (Bab)/Bite (Bab)/Kick (Bab)/Kick (Bab -5)Kick (Bab -10)
Each attack will be at 1D6 + 1.5 times your Str in damage plus Power Attack, will ignore Magic & Silver DR, can be freely mixed with all Simple/Martial weapons (I like armor spikes).
You still have 4 feats to spend on anything you want (I recommend the Bow or Item creation), you can never be disarmed and all your class abilities work together so you don't have any dead feats you will regret taking.
Throw on the Amulet of Mighty Fists and ALL of your attacks benefit from it then with a Monk's robe, Strongjaw spell and Improved Natural Attack you will do 4D6 +1.5x strength on your natural attacks and 3D6 +1.5x strength on your kicks.
All this BEFORE you take improved Vital Strike (can you say 8D6 +2x strength on a charge?)
You will MURDER everything that gets in your way.
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Two questions for you to help solidify this build:
1. What are your base traits? You didn't list the ones you get at 1st Lvl.
2. What are your first 2 Favored enemies you didn't list them either.
1. I don´t have base traits, my GM doesn´t allow base, just traits through feats
2. For my two initial FE I chose Outsider(evil) and Humanoid (Human)Ok let's first address a few issues in your build.[...]
Third Improved Natural Attack is a trap, it will net you on average 1 extra point of damage (1D4 =approx 2dam, 1D6 =approx3Dam), skip it.
Finally your understand of mixing natural attacks and weapon attacks is a right as below.
I´ll check if my GM will allow me to qualify for rending fury based on rending claw.
I am already sorry for that choice(cleave), but nothing more I can do about it.
Considering my bonus feats from natural style, and spells, increasing the damage HD is not that bad (with feat and spells it´s a 4 damage HD increase).
About increasing the Wis one time it´s to get a bonus 3rd level spell, so I can use Instant Enemy.Stay a regular Ranger and just take the natural weapons as your combat style.
Now for your build let me suggest this instead:
Monk 1(master of Many Styles)/Ranger 19
Hum, actually I am supposed to avoid multiclass, I do appreciate your detailed advice, it´s quite good, but I wonder if there is a way to make a pure ranger natural style work well then, it indeed a sad thing that the bonus from shapeshifter doesn´t stack with other magical stats enhancements.
PS: the Amulet of Mighty Fists makes Eldritch claws a mooth point
Well if you can't multiclass then it makes it a bit more feat intensive (you need improved unarmed strike, and 2 dragon style feats) ...
Then play a half-orc (or burn your bonus human feat to get the traits) at first level (you need that bite asap).As for the 3rd level spell spend a few grand for a Headband of wisdom +2 it's cheap, fast and gives you the spell without wasting stat points.
The amulet actually doesn't help you bypass DR. As expensive as it is you should never spend the cash to make it a +3 to bypass the DR/Silver. It's far more effective to take the feat and just add either an elemental effect with the amulet (acid, fire, frost, etc) or use it to give you Vicious or Merciful instead.
You will actually only be able to increase your damage die by 3 steps (at most) that way. 1D4->1D6 (improved natural Attack) ->2D6 (strong Jaw).
Lead Blades and Strong Jaw are both size increase bonuses so they don't stack.
Pure natural attack rangers are amazing up till mid levels (11th-12th) then they rapidly fall behind on hit bonus & damage output. Without grabbing Improved unarmed strike/more natural attacks all the other melee focused classes will rapidly outpace you.
Your stats might be a tad high. I'd make sure your DM is cool with it.
At the same time, as I take it Strength is your prime stat, you might consider dumping one of your others down and putting it up to 20, if you're able to do that with whatever system you're using to roll.
What level are you starting at?
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The amulet actually doesn't help you bypass DR. As expensive as it is you should never spend the cash to make it a +3 to bypass the DR/Silver. It's far more effective to take the feat and just add either an elemental effect with the amulet (acid, fire, frost, etc) or use it to give you Vicious or Merciful instead.Wouldn´t it be better to use bane instead of vicious or merciful?
Besides what about that versatile weapon and magic fang to bypass some damage reduction?
Bane only affects a specific type of opponent so you never know when that effect is going to go off. (you could actually go whole levels where you would never get the benefit of your enchant).
Merciful is a flat untyped +1D6 damage that affects everything but Undead and constructs with the added benefit of leaving your opponent alive for interrogation later (followed swiftly by a coup de grace).
Vicious is even better (usually) and does +2D6 to everything you hit (untyped bonuses rock), though it requires reliable healing on you after every fight.
Magic fang doesn't allow you to bypass DR and versatile weapon doesn't give you extra damage with a really low duration. Stick with the Eldritch claws it's the most efficient option.
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In another post you said the MoMS was not good, it was about losing FoB
If taking a monk variant I would take either MoMS, Tetori, ManuverMaster with this build. It doesnt hurt to loose FoB if you have several natural attack (hands and feet claws, bite). By taking one of those you could net a free combat maneuver at -2 with a full attack (mm), No negatives while grappling (tetori), or being able to have a couple styles up and quick access to Dragon Style feats that with feral combat training would give 2x strength on first attack and 1.5 strength on all the others. If you paired that with Tiger style, oh lord are you a nasty mommajoma.I looked at all 3 of those archetypes and have to HIGHLY recommend you don't take them.
Giving up FoB would cost you a massive amount of damage (you only get your full strength and full power attack added to natural attacks because of FoB) and take away your ability to use your monk level as Bab. Admittedly this is only a single point since we are only going 4 levels of Monk but still, I prefer not to give up any to hit if I don't have to.
what has changed? why have you dropped the dipping of 4 monk levels?
And let´s say that my first two levels are "stuck" with what already was proposed in the first post, I mean stats, race, and feats, how can I "fix" it? (besides it´s going to take a while to shift my alignment from neutral to lawful, I guess about 2 more levels, meaning I possible can get monk by level 5, gonna try convincing my GM to allow me to multiclass).
That recommendation was based on his specific build where giving up FoB would hurt him more then you.
Since your toon is is already started so trying to change it to keep that is more costly then it's worth. My recommendation for you is designed to keep as much of the Ranger abilities as much.|
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Claw (bab+str)/Claw (bab+str)/Kick (bab+str)/Kick (bab -5 +str)/Bite (bab -5+ 1/2str)
Claw (Bab)/Claw (Bab)/Bite (Bab)/Kick (Bab)/Kick (Bab -5)Kick (Bab -10)
I didn´t quite understand why in the first case bite is "secondary weapon", and why in the second case you lose strength bonus to hit.
Could you explain to me (busy lately, so not much time to look into this, but thanks for you concern and time).
By the way I could try using Cleaving Finish (Combat) to fix my cleave choice, what do you think?
Bite stays a secondary attack until you take the feat Feral Combat Training (Bite) (this treats it as an unarmed attack and monks have no penalties to their unarmed attacks).
When you mix Iterative attacks and Natural attacks all natural attacks become secondary unless you have something that removes that penalty.As for cleaving finish I personally don't like it but if you are going to continue down the cleave line I guess it will do.
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Bite stays a secondary attack until you take the feat Feral Combat Training (Bite) (this treats it as an unarmed attack and monks have no penalties to their unarmed attacks).
When you mix Iterative attacks and Natural attacks all natural attacks become secondary unless you have something that removes that penalty.As for cleaving finish I personally don't like it but if you are going to continue down the cleave line I guess it will do.
Hum, still didn´t get it, bite is a primary attack from Toothy trait, isn´t it? and in the first case, isn´t it already iterative attack mixtured with natural attack?
I´ve read about elemental fist and marid style, what do you think about them?
And about the cleave, considering that I already have it at first level (already took it, can´t change), that´s why I asked about your opinion on finishing cleave
It's a primary attack if you use it by itself or ONLY with other natural attacks. Any round where you make an attack with a manufactured weapon (or unarmed strike) the bite is shifted down to secondary with those associated penalties (look at the natural attack chapter in Beastiary 1 for the exact rules why).
Any of the styles that rely on Elemental fist are generally a bad choice for you since you won't have enough monk levels to do it more than a few times a day. I prefer styles that affect ALL my attacks every round, it's a better choce for long adventuring days.
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Claw (bab+str)/Claw (bab+str)/Kick (bab+str)/Kick (bab -5 +str)/Bite (bab -5+ 1/2str)
Claw (Bab)/Claw (Bab)/Bite (Bab)/Kick (Bab)/Kick (Bab -5)Kick (Bab -10)
Hum, after reading a few pages, I got more confused haha (sorry for being such a nuisance).
In the first case you are considering claws and Kicks as primary attacks, and bite as secondary, is it because of feral combat training?
In the second case, considering you got only kick as primary and natural as secondary, why isn´t there a Bab+5 (from str) for the first kick? (I´ll assume naturals got secondary because of multiple[iterative] unarmed attacks, since before that wasn´t a problem, and if that´s the case, shouldn´t the damage bonus from natural attacks be only str, composed from 1/2 str from secondary attack and 1/2 str from dragon ferocity?)
I´ve copied the bestiary part about natural attacks below.
** spoiler omitted **...
Yup, it's all about feral combat training and the level of Monk. (it's only because of the special rule on monk unarmed strike that lets feral combat training remove the secondary penalty on natural attacks).
The reason the str isn't on that attack is I got lazy and didn't write it in.
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Yup, it's all about feral combat training and the level of Monk. (it's only because of the special rule on monk unarmed strike that lets feral combat training remove the secondary penalty on natural attacks).The reason the str isn't on that attack is I got lazy and didn't write it in.
Well thanks for the info so far, but you see, getting lazy gets me confused haha, I asked a lot of times cause I have to give a full explanation to my GM when time arrives. So, could confirm then in the first attack routine, could you give a "detailed" explanation about why is the bite secondary while claw primary and there is two kicks, one with -5 penalty and in the second attack routine, he gets (BAB+STR-5) in attack bonus (of natural attacks as they are now secondary right?), and 1(no penalty due to monk)+0.5 (due to dragon ferocity)x str of damage bonus? And as I stated before, to make natural attacks the unarmed attacks should be primary, correct, is there for the first kick in the second routine (BAB+Str without penalty) for the attack bonus?
Ah another "simple" question, does the first attack 1.5x str from dragon style stack with dragon ferocity?
You have to remember you are actually looking at 2 separate attack routines here, they just happen at the same time.
You have 3 natural attacks Claw/Claw/Bite which are at full BaB & strength modifier when used alone but are at bab +str mod -5 when mixed with iterative attacks.
You also have your normal iterative attacks from your BaB (1 normally and another at every point where your Bab -5 is greater than 1 {6,11,etc} ).
With the Feral combat Training feat you effectively change your selected natural attack into an unarmed strike. Now since monks do not take off-hand penalties to their unarmed strikes and use full strength bonus on those attacks it removes the secondary penalty from that selected natural attack.
With that said it takes awhile for you to get all the feats you need to apply Feral Combat training to all your natural attacks. We take claws first simply because you get 2 of those.
Just remember the only change from a normal attack pattern is any natural attack you make that doesn't have a corresponding FCT feat is at BaB -5 +full strength mod to-hit and half strength mod added to damage.
And no the bonus from the first and second dragon style feat doesn't stack. Same type bonuses do not stack with each other.
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You have to remember you are actually looking at 2 separate attack routines here, they just happen at the same time.
You have 3 natural attacks Claw/Claw/Bite which are at full BaB & strength modifier when used alone but are at bab +str mod -5 when mixed with iterative attacks.
You also have your normal iterative attacks from your BaB (1 normally and another at every point where your Bab -5 is greater than 1 {6,11,etc} ).
With the Feral combat Training feat you effectively change your selected natural attack into an unarmed strike. Now since monks do not take off-hand penalties to their unarmed strikes and use full strength bonus on those attacks it removes the secondary penalty from that selected natural attack.
With that said it takes awhile for you to get all the feats you need to apply Feral...
Hum, I knew about the feral for applying the feats that have improved unarmed strike as prerequiste,but it actually depends on GM whether considering the natural attacks as unarmed, even after the feral training, it is kinda "subjective", and even if he considers as natural attack the ruling applied shouldn´t be the iterative one?. I do agree that the strength bonus shouldn´t suffer in any case because of "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes", you could say it´s an unarmed attack augmentation for that purpose.
Then in the first attack you could use the higher bonus then the others could use the bonus from ferocity, isn´t it?
Nothing subjective about it for Monks, their class benefits make it so (every other class doesn't have that power). Remember treat everything as normal, then apply the changes the monk class brings (upgrade unarmed strike damage then remove off-hand penalties) then apply the Feral Combat Training feat.
Second read the rules for natural attacks, the do not suffer from any of the rules that iterative attacks do, they have separate rules so none of that can apply to them.|
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That´s the point, the rules for natural attack are, without any other attack, they are full bab and strength otherwise noted, but with unarmed attack they become secondary, that "limitation" is not removed by monk and feral, Natural won´t be off-hand, they´ll just be secondary, isn´t that it?Nothing subjective about it for Monks, their class benefits make it so (every other class doesn't have that power). Remember treat everything as normal, then apply the changes the monk class brings (upgrade unarmed strike damage then remove off-hand penalties) then apply the Feral Combat Training feat.
Second read the rules for natural attacks, the do not suffer from any of the rules that...
That's where we disagree. With this feat and the monk class I see BOTH penalties being removed since the monk class specifically. Remember the monk considers his unarmed strikes as Natural weapons for effects that improve or affect natural attacks.
The secondary penalties affects his natural attacks so treat his unarmed strikes as primary natural attacks and this completely negates the penalty.|
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Besides there is a good synergy in Vicious Stomp and Punishing KickHum, what do you think of the spirit ranger?
And how would you optimize a cheetah animal companion?
Personally I'm not a fan of the Cheetah Companion (I actually only choose from the Roc or the Wolf) it gets mutiple attacks but lacks the strength or the Bab to really take advantage of it. Optimizing on this pet is all about getting it's dex as high as possible and investing in dex->hit & dex-> damage feats and items.
The Wolf is a MUCH better choice for a melee combatant. With Large size and a single attack (giving it a 1.5x str to damage bonus) with Power Attack and a high damage dice (1D8 -> 2D6 with improved natural attack) leads perfectly into a Vital Strike build.
Currently my Wolf hits for 2D6+20 twice a round and will get up to 9D6+30ish and guaranteed trip in a few more levels.
Haven't really looked at the spirit ranger so can't answer that.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned this before, but the Adopted trait does not give you access to racial traits from the actual races. It gives you access to the race traits category of traits for a particular race that you otherwise wouldn't qualify for.
The trait would be very OP if it allowed you to do that. Humans adopted by dwarves with darkvision, etc. Why get a measly +1 to a saving throw trait when you can get a +1 to all of them if you are adopted by half-orcs with sacred tattoos.
Yep, agreed, but then you use up your only advantage (bonus feat) for playing a human, as well as your first character feat. Burning two feats to gain a bite attack, or just play a half-orc and not burn a single feat.
Of course, barring role-play reasons for being human.
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Personally I'm not a fan of the Cheetah Companion (I actually only choose from the Roc or the Wolf) it gets mutiple attacks but lacks the strength or the Bab to really take advantage of it. Optimizing on this pet is all about getting it's dex as high as possible and investing in dex->hit & dex-> damage feats and items.
The Wolf is a MUCH better choice for a melee combatant. With Large size and a single attack (giving it a 1.5x str to damage bonus) with Power Attack and a high damage dice (1D8 -> 2D6 with improved natural attack) leads perfectly into a Vital Strike build.
Currently my Wolf hits for 2D6+20 twice a round and will get up to 9D6+30ish and guaranteed trip in a few more levels.Haven't really looked at the spirit ranger so can't answer that.
Hum, could you elaborate that? I mean level progression detailed.
Indeed, so one can use racial heritage and razor tusk to get the biteI'm surprised nobody mentioned this before, but the Adopted trait does not give you access to racial traits from the actual races. It gives you access to the race traits category of traits for a particular race that you otherwise wouldn't qualify for.
The trait would be very OP if it allowed you to do that. Humans adopted by dwarves with darkvision, etc. Why get a measly +1 to a saving throw trait when you can get a +1 to all of them if you are adopted by half-orcs with sacred tattoos.
The progression on the wolf AC?
Not complicated, the feats you need to take are Power Attack, improved natural attack, weapon focus (bite), Vital strike and Improved Vital strike.At 7th level the Wolf becomes large moving his bite attack to 1D8, Imp. Natural Attack bumps that to 2D6.
From there you either hit it with animal growth or Lead Blades bumping it to 3D6.
Vital Strike doubles that to 6D6 (or 9D6 with Improved Vital Strike).
A large sized wolf has a base strength of 22 (24 if you drop his level bumps into it) for +7dam, he only has one natural attack so it jumps to +10. Power attack gives a +6 (until his bab hits +8 then +9) and favored enemy bonus kicks it up by +4 (or +6 depending on your level) more. =+20 or +25 at 13th level
As for the bite there's about half a dozen ways to get it at first level so it's a moot point.
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The progression on the wolf AC?
Not complicated, the feats you need to take are Power Attack, improved natural attack, weapon focus (bite), Vital strike and Improved Vital strike.At 7th level the Wolf becomes large moving his bite attack to 1D8, Imp. Natural Attack bumps that to 2D6.
From there you either hit it with animal growth or Lead Blades bumping it to 3D6.
Vital Strike doubles that to 6D6 (or 9D6 with Improved Vital Strike).A large sized wolf has a base strength of 22 (24 if you drop his level bumps into it) for...
I found strange the twice part after the "2D6+20 twice", but I guess you meant simply the damage dice twice.
Hum, I was thinking about using snake fang, besides armor bracelets and rinf of protection any good way of boosting AC?
The twice part is because at 9th level he gets multi-attack and gets a second bite.
AC is universally bad for this build, Learn to kill it before it kills you.
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The twice part is because at 9th level he gets multi-attack and gets a second bite.
AC is universally bad for this build, Learn to kill it before it kills you.
I was getting to the same point, using snake retaliation means I didn´t kill the thing in one full round. Anyway, any more feat suggestions? I was still thinking about the punishing kick and vicious stomp, as in the first round I need to activate dragon style as swift action, approach the enemy, and make one attack, I could use a punishing kick with it, and if it connects, stomp on the enemy, and then, in the second round, activate the second style, and do a full round attack, and if the enemy tried getting up, he gets an AoO from everyone around.
Hum, the wolf doens´t get a second bite attack, he simply gets at 7th level advancement an upgraded bite damage dice.
Nope, at 9th level he picks up the multi-attack feat for free and (since he only has one natural attack) this gives a second bite attack at -5.
The rest of your ideas should work but that's more of a flavor thing. How do you want your Ranger to actually fight is up to you.
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Nope, at 9th level he picks up the multi-attack feat for free and (since he only has one natural attack) this gives a second bite attack at -5.
The rest of your ideas should work but that's more of a flavor thing. How do you want your Ranger to actually fight is up to you.
Hum, that´s your "trick", if your GM allows that, good for you haha.
I was thinking in what to put in the "spare feats" I have
No trick involved. Go to the core rulebook under Druid->animal companion and look at the multi-attack feat there.
An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.
As for your spare feats that's flavor and up to you.