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This thread needs more pictures and fewer clothes.
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[Mr Mackey voice]Hitting people with swords is bad, m'kay?[/Mr Mackey voice]
Unless God tells you to do it, then it's okay.
Well, that goes without saying, obviously.
Thanks to God (or, rather, humans' imperfect attempts to second-guess the will of God), there are countries where the OP would be able to walk the streets without being accosted by the sight of so much as a bare ankle. Where women don't get the choice what to wear, and cannot inflame the beast-like lusts of the weak-willed male populace.
Where is this Utopia? I hear you cry.
Oh, yeah, it's those Islamic countries. Where women are second-class citizens.
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Soooooo, you're basically saying, then, that your beef (no pun intended...) is that men are NOT portrayed naked or semi-naked, as braindead objects for female lust, while women are correspondingly so portrayed?
I wouldn't mind a serious surge in the amount of beefcake shown. It would have a little more Vallejo feel to it, which is not a bad thing in my book. By now, we have a pretty good idea what Seoni looks like nekkid, still waiting for Ezren.
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I wouldn't mind a serious surge in the amount of beefcake shown. It would have a little more Vallejo feel to it, which is not a bad thing in my book. By now, we have a pretty good idea what Seoni looks like nekkid, still waiting for Ezren.
EzrenxHarsk FTW!
Though, that would probably count as beardcake, rather than beef.
It would not bother me, one bit, if the ladies got their wish for more man-flesh.
Darwinism wrote:
"...Dresses are largely a patriarchal construct..."
How do know this? isn't this just your opinion (not saying you're wrong, but, how can you know this as a fact?)
GRU (puzzled by this)
Paizo, please do not take pictures of sexy adventuresses out of your products. I like them.
I wouldn't mind a serious surge in the amount of beefcake shown. It would have a little more Vallejo feel to it, which is not a bad thing in my book. By now, we have a pretty good idea what Seoni looks like nekkid, still waiting for Ezren.EzrenxHarsk FTW!
Though, that would probably count as beardcake, rather than beef.
It would not bother me, one bit, if the ladies got their wish for more man-flesh.
Yeah. Beardcake ftw!
But if the point was that nobody should be portrayed as a braindead object of lust, well... why? RPGs are about wish fulfillment. Part of that is and will be the area of contact with the preferred sex, both getting intimate and, yes, being an object of desire for them, as much as politically-minded people might abhor that. It's not an uncommon desire, judging by the absolutely stunning amounts of time, money and interest that many, not even a few, people of both sexes devote to looking good and appealing. Beauty products have entire malls devoted to them (at least far more infrastructure than RPG shops). If this desire is so common, then how surprising is it that people devoting their time to what is basically a game of wish-fulfillment would also have that desire?
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I do not get the problem. Darwinism, you state that a picture of an empowered woman such looking at a spell the same way as my girlfriend looks at our cat when it does something especially cute, is demeaning and refer to it as biting off her nipple. I must say that I think that type of sickness only exist in the eye of the beholder. If you want it to be dirty you can make it dirty in your mind just as Monty python showed with their Know what I mean? Joke.
I thought that including historical references where just pure rubbish, I do not want history I want fantasy. I want dragons killed by heroes, why do you care so much about the gender of the hero? Or if she was properly dressed while killing the dragon? Remember that it is a fantasy game made fun by not being “real”.
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I wouldn't mind a serious surge in the amount of beefcake shown. It would have a little more Vallejo feel to it, which is not a bad thing in my book. By now, we have a pretty good idea what Seoni looks like nekkid, still waiting for Ezren.EzrenxHarsk FTW!
Though, that would probably count as beardcake, rather than beef.
It would not bother me, one bit, if the ladies got their wish for more man-flesh.
Maybe I could post pictures of a hairy, bearded, tattooed and nekkid fiendish Chelaxian dwarf?
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To the OP, here's an idea if you're so offended by the art on Paizo's products, Don't support Paizo as a company and get all your friends not to buy anything from Paizo either. You will get your point across to the female president and majority owner of Paizo, who apparently doesn’t have the same problems with cheesecake that you do, if you hit her in the pocket book than randomly trolling Paizo’s message boards.
Bad touch is for life.*touches Gorbacz*MiB, you of all people shouldn't really touch the topic of "when is somebody serious and when is he/she just flamebaiting". :)
It's not sexist because he's winking.
Mr Gorbacz. Please show me on the dolly where the naughty TOZ touched you...
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To the OP, here's an idea if you're so offended by the art on Paizo's products, Don't support Paizo as a company and get all your friends not to buy anything from Paizo either. You will get your point across to the female president and majority owner of Paizo, who apparently doesn’t have the same problems with cheesecake that you do, if you hit her in the pocket book than randomly trolling Paizo’s message boards.
Killjoy...
Paizo, stop using pics of men with big muscles and hair in their head, lol.
Seriously, maybe it's offensive in Saudi Arabia, the Vatican or Afghanistan, and you prolly have the right to kill a woman for wearing indecent clothes in some other countries. But here (the part of the world where people that throws buckets of acid is jailed), women can dress however their want. Actually women fought very hard to have that right.
And the Witch pic is an horrible example, you can see more skin in a scottish MAN.. or a roman soldier... or greeks... or people in sportwear.. or ancient gaul warriors.. or any kind of southern heavy skirmisher (yes, long trousers are 100% useless in half of the world, because there is a lot of world south of France and Washington).
Not to mention a fairly large portion of all female larpers at any given british fest larp.
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Keep: Scantily clad heroes and heroines.
Ditch: Panty waisted wowsers and prudes.
Oddly enough my wife enjoys the female cheesecake as much as any male. She looks at Seoni and says "I want to look like that!". Strangely it seems, all of the females I've met (gamer and not) outside of a few very religious ones, liked the art and thought it was neat. Little anecdote to add nothing to the precedings.
As always YMMV, Offer Not Available in all States, No refunds will be given, and Opinions are like Politicians (They take up too much time trying to justify themselves)...
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The issue of depictions of women (and sometimes men) is complicated because there is a big blurry line between what is against someone's personal aesthetic, and what most people with consciences can agree is exploitative and potentially hurtful.
I have seen images in fantasy books and comic books where my initial, gut reaction is, "AUGH, that is AWFUL and DEGRADING." Usually it is because a woman is posed unrealistically so as to show off her breasts or crotch in a way she could not possibly be doing (comic books are notorious for this) and/or because she is being depicted as weak. A lot of early fantasy game art was criticized not because it depicted sexy women, but because it consistently depicted sexy women tied up with their erogenous zones on display--with no "heroic women" images to counteract this image of the sexed up victim. Women were objectified, NOT because they were showing some curves, but because they were being depicted consistently as objects of desire and domination and absolutely nothing else.
Now, the first picture that Darwinism linked to, of Seoni? My initial, gut reaction to THAT was, "Wow, that is gorgeous." I saw a beautiful woman with a serene look on her face, in a reasonable, realistic, humanistic pose. And yes, she has nice boobies too. (So do I, actually, even if I lack Seoni's figure, and I've got no problem showing them off on occasion.)
So for me, I know there is a line somewhere between where I say, "Oooh, pretty," and "WTF were they thinking?" or even, "If I ever meet the artist that drew this, I'm kicking him in the balls." But the "Ooh pretty" part, for me personally, goes well into the area where we can see some decolletage and skin on the women and rippling pecs on the men. Some folks just don't enjoy that kind of artwork, but "doesn't enjoy" doesn't necessarily mean "bad for everybody."
Where the line between "pretty" and "offensive" is drawn, I think is in context and respect for the subject matter.
There is some artwork I've seen in Paizo's books where I've gone, "Really? I think that's indecent." But it's very, very infrequent (I think they learned their lesson that one time). WotC's D&D books more frequently had something I found objectionable (I remember in Cityscape (I think) a very busty woman being strangled by a goblin, and the way the scene was laid out, her cleavage was the focal center of the artwork. THAT was in poor taste for multiple reasons).
For the most part, most of the artwork in Paizo's books I'm fine with. I do think the "witch" looks more like a hooker at a Renaissance festival than an actual practitioner of arcane hexes, but I don't actually find her offensive. She's at least standing tall and confident, and it's a nice drawing that clearly took a lot of work to produce.
Most importantly, I am certain all of Paizo's iconic women, by the way they are described and depicted, are capable of whupping ass and taking names and are NOT victims. I am certain they are indeed examples of heroes, and this is SO very important. And I absolutely am glad that we have Ameiko and Sheelah and other depictions of women who aren't scantily clad and hope that also keeps up--it shows a diversity of women all being kick ass. If all the iconic women were dressed like exotic dancers and all the iconic men were clad head to toe in fur, I'd be screaming out "double standard!" for all to hear.
Come to think of it, for the men, we've only got Seltyiel showing a lot of skin, and I DO think Paizo needs to change that. Who's with me for petitioning Paizo for Shirtless Valeros?
(Women can be horny sex-driven consumers too. And as I swing both ways, I'd be hypocrite if I didn't say I found some of Paizo's depictions of women very appealing.)
TL;DR: There is a difference between celebrating human(oid) beauty and depicting people as objects. Showing off boobies does not necessarily mean someone is an object. It CAN, but it doesn't have to. Context and respectfulness are something to bear in mind. Sometimes Paizo could do better, but they usually do a great job keeping this balance, in my personal opinion.
Come to think of it, for the men, we've only got Seltyiel showing a lot of skin, and I DO think Paizo needs to change that. Who's with me for petitioning Paizo for Shirtless Valeros?Did you miss the bath house scene they had on the blog ages ago?
Obviously I did!
Poor Sajan no one ever seems to remember him.
I looked right past him! Must be 'cause he's the monk. ;)
Yeah. More beef is the answer.
However, I always found this discussion odd. Naked people is good, but it takes clothes to make them awesome. This goes for both men and women. The most appealing female in any incarnation of the game is (yeah, I know, this is a very bad idea) Her Serenity, the Lady of Pain.
I just spent way too much time trying to clean this thread up. For one, this does not belong in Website Feedback. If you want to discuss the artwork in our Pathfinder RPG line, please do so in the appropriate forum. For two, dog piling, name calling, and general rudeness is not OK. There are some valid points being brought up in this thread, however, so feel free to start a new one (sans the bad stuff mentioned above). This thread is closed.