Well me and my GM are a little unsure of how to progress here.
The Cleric in our party just inherited a small fortune in gold and jewels from distant relatives who were murdered and happened to be successful merchants. While we tracked down and banished the fiend behind the merchant family's deaths, our Cleric was thinking of what he would do with his new wealth.
While the GM expected him to go on a shopping spree, (His magic gear is just table-scraps compared to the rest of the party's feast) he surprised us all by coming forth and telling the GM he wanted to use the wealth to create a self-sufficient community with a chapel to his god at the center. Our poor GM while not new to Pathfinder, confided in me that the math involved in building a settlement or even just a building, is a lot of bookkeeping he wasn't expecting to take on. We talked it over and agreed that being the founder and leader of a small gated community at level 6 is quite possible so long as it's not treated as a footnote in the character's story.
So I've come here for advice to help my buddy the GM out and I'd like some ideas and advice as to the following:
What kind of incentives can a PC give to NPCs to convince them to move to an unsettled area and begin a community?
Is there anywhere that relative costs are listed or can be calculated for the time and construction of buildings and structures via skilled laborers/craftsman experts and their needs?
Assuming that he intends to keep adventuring and leave the hamlet/community to fend for itself, what kind of defenses both marital, trap-like, and magical should he give it?
Assuming he intends to use the Common Laws of the country it's created in, how would he go about establishing his community as a legitimate settlement to other NPC towns/cities? Any special NPCs he should hire or entice?
Thank you for any advice you can give, and any responses given!
My Best "advice" would be to find a copy of the 3.5 Cityscape book put out by Wizards. It has an amazing level of detail to build communities and for running businesses. I would also suggest using the NPC section from the Game Mastery Guide to populate the village. You may also want to look into having your Cleric take the Leadership feat at 7th or 9th if he wants a more active role in the towns governance. Using his Cohort as high priest of the church or as mayor and his followers as the town experts would be a good way to keep him in touch with the village.
It also has the bonus effect of giving the many adventure hooks along the way to "save" the town for all sorts of dangers. Having humanoid raiding parties, wild animals and political problems affect the community stops it from being just a money sink and makes it important to the player. Also it gives the group a haven to return to. A place to heal and rest free of danger. The traditional retirement keep can easily be modified into the sleepy village.
You might also suggest that he sponsor a village rather that start one from scratch, but that is more story line based. Either way the GM will still have to build it.
As for the costs involved with the temple, you might want to locate a copy of the 3.0 accessory "Stronghold Builder's Guidebook" (by WotC)...
And the Forgotten Realms Accessory "Power of Faerun" has a section of starting a temple...
Have you looked at the kingdom building rules from Kingmaker? It's meant for the players to rule over, but it can be tweaked for a more self-sufficient community
Nezz the White Necromancer wrote: Well me and my GM are a little unsure of how to progress here.
The Cleric in our party just inherited a small fortune in gold and jewels from distant relatives who were murdered and happened to be successful merchants. While we tracked down and banished the fiend behind the merchant family's deaths, our Cleric was thinking of what he would do with his new wealth.
While the GM expected him to go on a shopping spree, (His magic gear is just table-scraps compared to the rest of the party's feast) he surprised us all by coming forth and telling the GM he wanted to use the wealth to create a self-sufficient community with a chapel to his god at the center. Our poor GM while not new to Pathfinder, confided in me that the math involved in building a settlement or even just a building, is a lot of bookkeeping he wasn't expecting to take on. We talked it over and agreed that being the founder and leader of a small gated community at level 6 is quite possible so long as it's not treated as a footnote in the character's story.
So I've come here for advice to help my buddy the GM out and I'd like some ideas and advice as to the following:
What kind of incentives can a PC give to NPCs to convince them to move to an unsettled area and begin a community?
Is there anywhere that relative costs are listed or can be calculated for the time and construction of buildings and structures via skilled laborers/craftsman experts and their needs?
Assuming that he intends to keep adventuring and leave the hamlet/community to fend for itself, what kind of defenses both marital, trap-like, and magical should he give it?
Assuming he intends to use the Common Laws of the country it's created in, how would he go about establishing his community as a legitimate settlement to other NPC towns/cities? Any special NPCs he should hire or entice?
Thank you for any advice you can give, and any responses given!
The leadership feat.
Done and done.
While we're giving out product advice, don't forget that the second kingmaker adventure has rules on building a whole nation, including cities.
Nezz the White Necromancer wrote:
What kind of incentives can a PC give to NPCs to convince them to move to an unsettled area and begin a community?
Two conditions need to be met before people will come to the settlement: First, it needs to be safe for them to do so. No wandering monsters, bandits, or other local governments can pose a serious immediate threat to the community or people won't stick around.
Secondly, there needs to be some hope of solid economic return. Blacksmiths and bakers won't show up unless there is enough demand for their services. The first people you're likely to attract are farmers, provided you offer them more ariable land at a lower price than they could get elsewhere, and services that cater to travelers such as an inn.
Nezz the White Necromancer wrote: Is there anywhere that relative costs are listed or can be calculated for the time and construction of buildings and structures via skilled laborers/craftsman experts and their needs? See the books listed above.
Nezz the White Necromancer wrote: Assuming that he intends to keep adventuring and leave the hamlet/community to fend for itself, what kind of defenses both marital, trap-like, and magical should he give it? If the community is going to thrive, he, and most likely the rest of the party are going to need to stay close, or at least make frequent visits back to deal with issues that the settlements passive defenses can't handle. A few guards, supplemented with a town militia will suffice when it is small, but as it grows consider investing in walls, towers, and even a standing town watch.
Nezz the White Necromancer wrote: Assuming he intends to use the Common Laws of the country it's created in, how would he go about establishing his community as a legitimate settlement to other NPC towns/cities? Any special NPCs he should hire or entice?
Unless the settlement is being built in the middle of nowhere, some noble probably has a claim to the territory. If you want legitimacy (and friendly, or at least not hostile neighbors) you'll need to talk to them. Even if the claim is tenuous, you will want to consult with the local nation's head of government as well, or at least a high level functionary.
ciretose wrote:
The leadership feat.
Done and done. While I am familiar with that feat, my GM prefers to play thoroughly and doesn't hand his players anything without having them put forth at the least a small bit of effort to acquire it.
i.e. A full wagon-train of well-stocked and provisioned idealists won't catch up to the party during a journey and say "We heard about your cleric..."
Leadership will, at the least give him a level 4/5 Aristocrat/Cleric for a Mayor/Church leader he can trust and count on. (Cohort)
After that, he needs to do (some) bookkeeping, for our GM to tell him how long it would take to gather the resources and the time/costs for building the settlement one building at a time.
While the NPCs are capable of interacting with each other, he's the "Leader" for a reason to my GM.
Rats Archive wrote: While we're giving out product advice, don't forget that the second kingmaker adventure has rules on building a whole nation, including cities. Oh really? That would be undoubtedly helpful in this! I'll purchase a copy right away, Paizo wins my dollar again.
Digitalelf wrote: As for the costs involved with the temple, you might want to locate a copy of the 3.0 accessory "Stronghold Builder's Guidebook" (by WotC)...
And the Forgotten Realms Accessory "Power of Faerun" has a section of starting a temple...
I agree strongly with this sentiment. As for more story related advice. If I may take a somewhat significant assumptions about your "common" laws and religious rules... The major NPC the party should want to deal with is an bishop or archbishop type figure for the kingdom or area he is interested in starting his settlement. Classically speaking, the church owns large tracts of land gifted to it from the crown, and the cleric would seek to start a settlement in these lands on behalf of the church. The land would follow church rules and laws, and the tithes collected would replace taxes and go to the church instead of the crown.
This allows you to bypass the problem of nobility owning and controlling the land, putting it in the cleric's hands as a representative of the church. However, this does mean that there will be no standing defense force for your settlement beyond the players and any hired help. Therefore, courting members of the religions templars or paladins would likely be ideal. A nice small storyline could revolve around convincing an older paladin and his templars to defend the new temple building.
Working with an archbishop does mean that a small number or additional clerics and adepts will be assigned to the new temple development to help with things like text copying, daily rituals, and area sanctification. That way, the player cleric is required to spend all his time just with the building. Another fun adventure could be with nefarious forces trying to stop him from consecrating the temple grounds in a short detective adventure where one of the workers is secretly working with demonic agents trying to frustrate the temple building.
As for commoners, many will come by themselves. A portion of the faithful will be drawn to the newly forming congregation. There will be land available for farming and development. A large number of handymen will be hired to do the construction work. They will have money and need rooms and food. So, the settlement will kind of build itself just out of the temple building project. Let the characters come up with defensive projects themselves or have them leave it to the templars. Same with construction details, let the characters get as involved as they want, but also allow other "experts" to step in if they don't care.
A final note: regarding prices; some things don't need to be priced so strictly. As long as the pricing seems acceptable let it slide. If the cleric wants to spend 110,000 gp on a temple you don't need to calculate and spec out every aspect if you don't want to. Just take the money, calculate some craft DCs to come up with a relative time table and let it start working. You can spend more than one session just doing the book keeping, but dividing it over the sessions as the issues actually come up could work well too. For example, the first thing to go up are the walls and the roof, so deal with those decisions at the first related session. then, chapel and sanctum details come next. Followed by kitchen, sleeping quarters, antechamber, graveyard, courtyard. If you want to be very detail oriented, then just tackle the details in small chunks as necessary instead of killing game time tackling it at once. Also, encourage your player(s) to make some of those decisions outside of game session time to further hedge out stalling other player's fun. I suggest e-mail.
Nezz the White Necromancer wrote: ciretose wrote:
The leadership feat.
Done and done. While I am familiar with that feat, my GM prefers to play thoroughly and doesn't hand his players anything without having them put forth at the least a small bit of effort to acquire it.
i.e. A full wagon-train of well-stocked and provisioned idealists won't catch up to the party during a journey and say "We heard about your cleric..."
Leadership will, at the least give him a level 4/5 Aristocrat/Cleric for a Mayor/Church leader he can trust and count on. (Cohort)
After that, he needs to do (some) bookkeeping, for our GM to tell him how long it would take to gather the resources and the time/costs for building the settlement one building at a time.
While the NPCs are capable of interacting with each other, he's the "Leader" for a reason to my GM.
I wouldn't consider a feat a handout.
Remember leadership isn't just the 4/5 cohort. Keep in mind that depending on his leadership score he will also likely have low level followers.
Building a stronghold of some sort is +2 to leadership score. Add in charisma bonuses, bonuses for fairness and generosity and a 7th level can easily have a leadership score that could give between 5 and 25 additional low level followers.
You have them set up a monastery or church and build the settlement out from there.
I'm no expert on these games, but I've studied a lot of communities in RL and to make a very long story as short as possible, economic opportunity is the key. People will go into dangerous areas if there is a reward so long as the risk/reward ratio isn't out of whack. The easier people to grab for a new community are refugees, but they are often from fairly homogeneous backgrounds and might not be interested in running thing the way your cleric wants them run. Actually that's true whomever he gets. If this world has an agriculture based economy you could base it on the German settlements in the Middle Ages east of the Elbe, basically you offered peasants land on good terms, usually without any sort of taxes or feudal dues for a while (often a decade or more) until you were established. People then had a long-term view of land tenure.
Anyway, that's a short version. If there is any interest I can dig up a few books and give more historical details than anyone really cares about. :P
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