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I think the term "war horse" is a relic of 3.5 and the hoove attacks are secondary (as per the AC rules PCR pg 54) and thus still suffer the -5 until the AC gets multiattack (effective druid level 9)
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war horse is a relic term, but war horses are still better outfitted and combat trained.
animal companion horses get "combat training" at 4th effective druid level, at which point its hoof attacks become primary like its bite.
percy would have bite +4, 2 hooves -1 (1d6+1). 4th level fixes the hooves to full attack.
i've heard that combat training does not grant the animal any bonus feats. you've got to use the feats the animal companion gets to choose armor proficiency (light) [ i know. despite what it says in the beastiary. some of that is leftover 3.5 verbage ]
hope that helps.
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What about this rule from the Bestary?
PRD Universal monster rules[/url]]Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
This would make the horse hooves primary attacks.
. . . the hoove attacks are secondary (as per the AC rules PCR pg 54) and thus still suffer the -5 until the AC gets multiattack (effective druid level 9)"A non-combative herbivore treats its natural weapons as a secondary attack (bestiary 307)."
Picking the combat training trick for a horse (herbivore) would make it combative, and thus negate the secondary attack requirement.
"Docile (Ex) Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill on page 97 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook), a horse’s hooves are treated as secondary attacks (bestiary 177)."
This is the listing of horse in the Pathfinder Bestiary. Once combat trained a horses hooves are not secondary attacks (presumably they would be primary).
As far as I know an Animal Companion stats (and abilities) or not the same as the it's beastiary counterparts. If the Horse is treated as an Animal Companion, its hooves should be treated as secondary attacks (AC RAW pg 54 in the core book) regardless of what the beatiary entry states
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As far as I know an Animal Companion stats (and abilities) or not the same as the it's beastiary counterparts. If the Horse is treated as an Animal Companion, its hooves should be treated as secondary attacks (AC RAW pg 54 in the core book) regardless of what the beatiary entry states. . . the hoove attacks are secondary (as per the AC rules PCR pg 54) and thus still suffer the -5 until the AC gets multiattack (effective druid level 9)"A non-combative herbivore treats its natural weapons as a secondary attack (bestiary 307)."
Picking the combat training trick for a horse (herbivore) would make it combative, and thus negate the secondary attack requirement.
"Docile (Ex) Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill on page 97 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook), a horse’s hooves are treated as secondary attacks (bestiary 177)."
This is the listing of horse in the Pathfinder Bestiary. Once combat trained a horses hooves are not secondary attacks (presumably they would be primary).
Yep, here is what the horse AC stat block says:
Horse
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. *This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.
4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities combat trained.
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1. Proficient with no armor unless trained for war (bestiary 307).
2. Combat Training / war training: gives Armor Proficiency (Light) (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinder RPG/rules/developerResponseRequestedMountsAndBardingProficiency&page=1) .Evidently animals trained for war gain Armor Proficiency (Light) as a bonus feat.
The FAQ confirms this is not the case:
Does training an animal using Handle Animal to be Combat Trained grant it Light Armor Proficiency?However the cavalier and samurai classes give their mounts Light Armour Proficiency as a bonus feat, as a specific class ability.
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Statting a mount is a super-gargantuan pain in the ass; and I cannot fathom why all of the crud has YET to be in ONE LOCATION as of the 4th printing. (I.e., companion-mounts use nothing from the Beastiary -- but that's where you have to go, then unwind backwards from the Horse description, to realize that if your mount is combat-trained, it is no longer "docile" and hence its hooves are primary attacks.)
Everything the player needs to stat a CRB base class' CRB stuff should be in the CRB.
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James Jacobs (Creative Director), Sat, Aug 28, 2010, 06:27 PM
“For now, though, it's safe to assume that a mount that's trained for war gets Light Armor proficiency for free, but needs to spend feats to get better armor. This does mean that most normal horses will never be able to get heavy armor training, and I'm kind of okay with that.”
For some reason the URL I posted above will not work. Google “developerResponseRequestedMountsAndBardingProficiency”
that's contradictory to the actual FAQ listed above in starglim's post.
presuming JJ's post is more a guideline for other GMs. Bulman trumps Jacobs for rules responses.
Contrary as it may seem, a heavy horse's hooves are secondary even when combat trained.
(1) hooves are normally secondary attacks, but become primary if a creature has no other attack form (see Bestiary)
(2) light horses have only one natural attack form (hooves) which would normally be primary - but they have the Docile quality, rendering the hooves secondary until the horses are combat trained
(3) heavy horses gain a bite attack. Their hooves are secondary on two grounds; they have the Docile quality, and they have more than one form of natural attack
(4) combat trained heavy horses lose the Docile quality, but still have both a bite and hooves. The hooves are secondary on one ground; heavy horses have more than one form of natural attack.
For fearsome equine monsters which treat their hooves as secondary, see the nightmare and pegasus.
Having said all this, I agree the animal companion assembly instructions could be clearer.
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Contrary as it may seem, a heavy horse's hooves are secondary even when combat trained.(1) hooves are normally secondary attacks, but become primary if a creature has no other attack form (see Bestiary)
(2) light horses have only one natural attack form (hooves) which would normally be primary - but they have the Docile quality, rendering the hooves secondary until the horses are combat trained
(3) heavy horses gain a bite attack. Their hooves are secondary on two grounds; they have the Docile quality, and they have more than one form of natural attack
(4) combat trained heavy horses lose the Docile quality, but still have both a bite and hooves. The hooves are secondary on one ground; heavy horses have more than one form of natural attack.
For fearsome equine monsters which treat their hooves as secondary, see the nightmare and pegasus.
Having said all this, I agree the animal companion assembly instructions could be clearer.
That is incorrect. Look at the stats for a warhorse. Hooves and bite are both primary for a combat-trained horse. (And a horse doesn't have to be a "heavy horse" to get a bite attack; animal companion "mounts" are not based on the heavy template, yet receive a bite attack.)
So...it's all clear as mud.