GM, thank you for the birthday wishes. :)
I will be calling our nation: Republic of Praxis (via Kae's good suggestion) and the citizens will be referred to as Praxians. :)
I will be calling our nation: Republic of Praxis (via Kae's good suggestion) and the citizens will be referred to as Praxians. :)
What? Not "Praxites" - or "Praxi's" - or "Praxisions"? Oh well - that's what happens when I don't get to vote...
Alaric approves of the name of Praxis. :-)
Thank you, beloved Alaric!
Hey Dain,
At some level in the future I'm going to be taking some levels of Pathfinder Savant, though probably not until at least 9th or 10th level. I'm feeling a little un-special because we have a lot of magic in the party and I need the spell progresssion to fix that. So when I do take two levels I'll be getting the Esoteric magic ability and I want to make sure we're on the same page.
Esoteric Magic: At each class level beyond 1st, the Pathfinder savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats it as if it were on the spell list of his base spellcasting classes; if his base class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher. The spell’s type (arcane or divine) and save DCs function as normal for his base spellcasting class. All other restrictions of his normal spellcasting class apply. This ability does not allow other spellcasters to prepare, cast, or use spell trigger or spell completion items of esoteric spells (such as a sorcerer using a cure light wounds scroll).
So I want to pick a few spells from other lists (mostly summoner) that will effectively make them lower level spells for me. Keeping in my theme (teleport conjurer), of course.
This is going to cheese a little, but I want to make sure everyone is cool with this.
Spell's I'm considering. Remember if I take the spell it effectively becomes a lower level wizard spell for me. Also I only get to pick 6 across my entire career. It's not like every spell is going to be like this.
Teleport circle Wiz9/Sum6
Create Demiplane wiz8/sum6
Summon Mon VIII wiz 8/Sum6
Greater Teleport WIz 7/Sum5
Planeshift Wiz7/SUm 5 <-- Depends on if we'll be planeshifting much.
Also going to take ANimate objects at some point because I can make it permanent (at a significant cost), but that's more of a high end trick.
Is all of this cool or do we need to discuss something?
Also may want to brush up on
School: illusion (shadow)
Level: sorcerer/wizard 7, summoner 5
Casting Time: 12 hours
Components: V, S, M (ice sculpture of the target plus powdered rubies worth 500 gp per HD of the simulacrum)
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: one duplicate creature
Duration: instantaneous
Saving Throw: none
Spell Resistance: no
Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).
You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is.
A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.
At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.
Hey Dain,
At some level in the future I'm going to be taking some levels of Pathfinder Savant, though probably not until at least 9th or 10th level. I'm feeling a little un-special because we have a lot of magic in the party and I need the spell progresssion to fix that. So when I do take two levels I'll be getting the Esoteric magic ability and I want to make sure we're on the same page.Esoteric Magic: At each class level beyond 1st, the Pathfinder savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats it as if it were on the spell list of his base spellcasting classes; if his base class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher. The spell’s type (arcane or divine) and save DCs function as normal for his base spellcasting class. All other restrictions of his normal spellcasting class apply. This ability does not allow other spellcasters to prepare, cast, or use spell trigger or spell completion items of esoteric spells (such as a sorcerer using a cure light wounds scroll).
So I want to pick a few spells from other lists (mostly summoner) that will effectively make them lower level spells for me. Keeping in my theme (teleport conjurer), of course.
This is going to cheese a little, but I want to make sure everyone is cool with this.
Spell's I'm considering. Remember if I take the spell it effectively becomes a lower level wizard spell for me. Also I only get to pick 6 across my entire career. It's not like every spell is going to be like this.
Teleport circle Wiz9/Sum6
Create Demiplane wiz8/sum6
Summon Mon VIII wiz 8/Sum6
Greater Teleport WIz 7/Sum5
Planeshift Wiz7/SUm 5 <-- Depends on if we'll be planeshifting much.Also going to take ANimate objects at some point because I can make it permanent (at a significant cost), but that's more of a high end trick.
Is all of this cool or do we need to discuss something?
Shae –
Not entirely certain about that. This would basically mean (as I read it) – that you could cast a spell that wizards can’t get until 15th level – and Summoner’s couldn’t get until 16th level (i.e. – a 6th level Summoner spell is cast at 16th level for a Summoner – this is the equivalent to an 8th level Wizard spell – in which you need to be 15th level) far earlier.
In other words (again, I may be reading this wrong) – you could be getting this spell at 11th level, instead of 15th.
Casting spell four levels before you can cast it – especially when those levels are fairly potent – seems fairly… intense.
However – level 11 is a long way off, and you guys have taken roughly 9,000 posts and haven’t reached 7th – so, it’s not out of the question – but, I’ll need to do some thinking on it.
Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter? If so – please toss them up! Thank you.
Also may want to brush up on ** spoiler omitted ** Because I'll probably be using that spell a lot for world building.
Hmmm – I am pretty comfortable with this particular spell – especially when I saw that the “Duration” is “Instantaneous”. For all the work that goes into it – you’d think they’d want a spell that lasted more then an instant. Well, anyway – I need more information on the spell, as I am pretty sure that “instantaneous” is probably not quite the way that is written. That said – again, we’ve got quite a long time between now and level 10 – so, you know – we have time to go over these things.
Again – if anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please let me know. Thank you.
Shae –
Not entirely certain about that. This would basically mean (as I read it) – that you could cast a spell that wizards can’t get until 15th level – and Summoner’s couldn’t get until 16th level (i.e. – a 6th level Summoner spell is cast at 16th level for a Summoner – this is the equivalent to an 8th level Wizard spell – in which you need to be 15th level) far earlier.
In other words (again, I may be reading this wrong) – you could be getting this spell at 11th level, instead of 15th.
Casting spell four levels before you can cast it – especially when those levels are fairly potent – seems fairly… intense.
However – level 11 is a long way off, and you guys have taken roughly 9,000 posts and haven’t reached 7th – so, it’s not out of the question – but, I’ll need to do some thinking on it.
Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter? If so – please toss them up! Thank you
I thought that might be the case. If it's an issue I will probably need to rethink my character build as I have taken the prerequisites specifically for this prestige class.
Essentially I'll be able to do a few cool things earlier than normal, but it shouldn't be earth shattering.
I am an archmage surrounded by magic folk. I should probably be somehow uber-magical. I'm just saying.
Dain, if you take issue with Shae getting spells 4 levels early, you could split the difference, and call the spells one level higher than the summoner version, so he gets as one level lower, ie. 2 levels early.
But personally, i don't have an issue with Shae getting these spells in particular. i like having an effective caster, and transit will be helpful, but not necessarily earth-shattering.
Well - like I said - you guys are not even on level 7 - if we bother to count the combat thread, and the main thread - we're looking at roughly 10,000 posts, and nearly a year of game play.
That said - we do have a ways' to go before Shaezon even hits 10th level, and, as I see it - he can't cast Sixth Level Summoner spells until his character reaches (fi I'm not mistaken) 12th level anyway.
In either case - I'm not saying no - just looking for input.
I do like the idea, though - and I appreciate the concept of an Arch-mage - but again, I need more evidence on it before I make an educated decision.
Hmm...
Now - I have some new races cooking - but, to say this - check out the following link:
Bad luck - it doesn't pop up until June - so, if you want to wait for a new Cohort Race - you are free to, otherwise - we can go from what you got now.
However - it is likely that by the time you finish book 2, and the combat - and the other issues with getting your kingdom started - it may take a bit before the book comes out.
Once it does - you are free to use it, otherwise - it's up to you.
Let me know what you think...
Our combats are difficult to follow and I have a small request.
Dearest DM,
Could you please post big bold captions at the beginning and/or end of rounds. For example: ROUND 4:. It would really be helpful for tracking.
Thank you ever so much.
Love,
Shaezon and Mister.
Indeed!
Due to my own miscalculations - I skipped over Ras's attack.
Ras - apologies for our conversation earlier - I made my posts this morning after a quick glance at the board, and was tired, and missed that for your last action - kae had you "make the elemental attack" - and, while this is what happened on your round - it does not equal your complete action. I need to re-read and figure things out - please disregard the attacks of the enemy - and I'll get something up soon to make up for it.
I'm afraid I cannot continue to play anymore. Thank you (sincerely) to the GM for giving me the opportunity to play in his game and to all who have helped me with learning this game -- it certainly has been interesting and I loved playing my characters.
Good luck and take care to all.
~ Ariarh/Isani/Dior.
I PASSED!!!
I'm afraid I cannot continue to play anymore. Thank you (sincerely) to the GM for giving me the opportunity to play in his game and to all who have helped me with learning this game -- it certainly has been interesting and I loved playing my characters.
Good luck and take care to all.
~ Ariarh/Isani/Dior.
Bye Ariah! You'll be missed.
When possible can I get a quick synopsis so I can jump back in the fight? Thank you.
I PASSED!!!
CONGRATULATIONS!
I'm afraid I cannot continue to play anymore. Thank you (sincerely) to the GM for giving me the opportunity to play in his game and to all who have helped me with learning this game -- it certainly has been interesting and I loved playing my characters.
Good luck and take care to all.
~ Ariarh/Isani/Dior.
As I told you before I am sorry to see you go but I understand your reasons. I had an absolute blast gaming with you.
I'm afraid I cannot continue to play anymore. Thank you (sincerely) to the GM for giving me the opportunity to play in his game and to all who have helped me with learning this game -- it certainly has been interesting and I loved playing my characters.
Good luck and take care to all.
~ Ariarh/Isani/Dior.
All the best! I'm sorry to see you go, and I had a lot of fun in the game, with you.
Cheers
--waiph
Facts on the ground
I’ll try to keep this brief, as there’s a lot on my mind that I want to say, but I won’t go into.
1. I don’t know where to go to from here. I literally had 97 pages of notes (not counting maps) of plot points hashed out for the next part of the book and the coming year (in game year, city development, and so on). The majority of that revolved around both Ry/Isani – for various reasons connected to what they have done in game. Without them, I am not sure what to do next on that issue.
2. I have had my own issues with the game lately – for some time. Combat is generally my least favorite part of any RPG – including tabletop – though it can be fun. But play-by-post combat is extremely difficult for various reasons – and this has eroded a lot of the enjoyment in the game for me, to the point that I felt like cashing out of my own game several times in the past two weeks.
3. Even if everything had gone on swimmingly – and wonderfully – I also know that I needed at least a week of down time to recalibrate the entire momentum so that you’d playing a more “diplomatic/leadership” roll – with armies of soldiers to govern, and troops (using some mass combat rules, and maybe a few one-on-one duels/fights with a few boss characters as your armies clash around you) – and that sort of thing. I have been doing a lot of research on how to make this work – and how to make everyone happy, but it would have taken a lot of time to get things were I wanted – like I said – roughly a week – provided you finished the combat.
4. This combat itself was insane to me. Largely because what I presumed to be extremely easy became very hard, very fast. Mainly because I had a few basic presumptions that were wrong.
For example -
I presumed that Arasmes would simply buff up Cali – send her across and kill about 6 or 7 of the green guys, and probably 1 or 2 Cobras as you all charged around the edge of the volcano.
I presumed that after Cali charged across that she would grant the entire party intimate knowledge on what happened (as in – the Cobra spit – not to mention the fact that they would have it wasted most those on Cali) – all through her link with Ras, until she was killed. But I figured – what’s the difference if she is? All it means is she leaves this Plane – comes back the next day – and while you’re still running over there – Arasmes is summoning another creature to mess them up – even as you are still charging.
I assumed that Shaezon would used more magic during the eight rounds of combat, instead of his bow. Though I am not an expert in how magic works, I know a few things – and assumed a few more. Never mind about Invisibility – but; seeing how it was used anyway – another tactic may have been to use it on round 2 – on Kae – for example – Kae could have easily rushed the boss with the staff – killed him outright with a massive attack and taken the staff – preventing them from using it more then once.
I assumed when the party fought the spellcasters they would have done everything they could to “Interrupt” spells by attacking the spellcasters – and preventing them from using their magic to harm the group as a whole – and causing the casters to waste spells.
My problem is that I assumed too much. What happened, happened – and what was – to me – a modest challenge with a bit of difficulty – was much harder then I thought because my expectations were incorrect.
This is my own issue – and something I need to work on as a GM. In the past, when I create a challenge I assume a player does something that – to me – is obvious. However – when they don’t do what I expect I find they either destroy the enemy outright with ease (which frustrates me a lot because I feel like all my work was for nothing) – or they get stomped on harder then I meant, because I didn’t think they would do what they did.
This is not fair for you guys, and for that I apologize – it’s my own issue of work.
For now – I will push through this combat. I am going to do a few things – just so you guys can see it to the end. I want you guys to enjoy the game, and I guess finishing the combat would help that – but I should say that after I do this I will need to take some time and think things over on my own. This combat – and the stress it cause me in my personal life – didn’t make the game fun for me for the past 2 weeks. And my own stress issues have probably caused a player to quit as well.
So I will finish the combat, I know some of you want to see it to the end, so I will do that for you guys. But then I need to think things over. I can’t be doing recreational things that cause me stress on my own, with my family – and cost me friendships. I just need to get things figured out.
I hope the rest of the combat is fun – but after that – I’ll need some time to figure things. I’ll let you know after a little bit what I want to do – but a lot of that decision will come from you guys – and what you want, too. If you want to continue – if you want to keep playing – well, I’ll see what I can do. But I need more information before I know how to do that – on how to make it work better, for all of us.
Right at this moment, I cannot manage life and the game. I need a hiatus -- a week to catch my breath and figure things out. I can return and resume playing Ry/Isani then. If everyone is okay with that.
Right at this moment, I cannot manage life and the game. I need a hiatus -- a week to catch my breath and figure things out. I can return and resume playing Ry/Isani then. If everyone is okay with that.
That works for me - for myself - I'm kind of in the same boat.
Also - even if everything went well, as I said - we'd need about a week or so of downtime to get my notes in order for book three.
So - other then a few posts about some basic notes and information that you'd find after the fight - I don't expect too much for a while until I get everything set up.
Book 3 is a very different type of game - and it needs different considerations on how to do it.
Also - if anyone has any suggestions on how to make the game run more smoothly - please let me know. I'm open for suggestions.
I PASSED!!!
Sorry - lot on my mind - meant to say this earlier - Congratulations!
Congratulations on passing, Shae.
I PASSED!!!
All in all I like this game and the players. Running a PBP is hard, moreso than tabletop IMO. I give Dain mad props for taking on a challenge as large as Kingmaker. I do have a few suggestions that will help dramatically.
1) When in combat it's hard to tell when rounds start. As everything happens at the same time here is how you do it. "Round 1:"-> Everyone posts their actions for ONLY that round. Break it down by type of action if it will help.-> Dm writes a blurb as to what happened based on initiatives. Then Round 2: Repeat. This is a high level game I'm playing in and combat works much more fluidly. I recommend taking a look at the style.
Typically you'll get through a round a day, though this group posts fast, so perhaps more.
2) Re: casting more spells. I've been trying to set myself up as a battle caster, but every time I tried to find some useful arcane tool I was unable. If I had been able to find/buy even a partially charged wand of fireball this combat would have gone very different I suspect. Wizard spells alone can be powerful, but are a very limited resource.
3) Minimize the Non-core non-magical gear.
In contrast the "poison arrows" were a simple enough to be good, but I have a bias against poisons. I find them overpriced and generally irritating, but that's just me.
3)If you're going to DM at this level you REALLY gotta know your stuff. It's ok to ask if something is unclear. We're a friendly group.
4)You overcomplicate things. There is so much happening in the city I don't know what to do with it. Now, a level of complexity is great, but you need to separate it among the players and let the PC's ask each other for assistance. Hell, turn it into a short adventure like going after whats-his-name who sells illegal drugs.
5) the map's are great and I really appreciate it, but this is PBP and it's not always clear what's happening. Assume that battles will get complicated and plan accordingly. A legend, for example will help us not living in your head know what's what on a map. This last one I had little clue which enemy was with and what the AOE's were.
6) Plot problems with no reasonable solutions/time to fix said things. The "tree in my lung" thing for example. It is interesting flavor and once I figured out how to fix it I was unable due to lack of drugs. Ok, no problem more reason for me to go on the sting operation. So we went and hit a drug shipment. Now before I have time to deal with it we have to run off for one reason or another. It's a minor character irruption that (best I can tell) doesn't add to the plot. If it doesn't add to the plot then why drag it out? Seriously, do I really need surgery in a world full of magic? Surely there is a simpler solution. Then again i don't fully know what's going on.
7) This is only my opinion, but we have too many PC's to track. People playing multiple characters tends to gum up the works. Also, it detracts from building your PC's personality.
I personally have no problem with building PC personality having multiple characters. I don't find I'm having trouble with my own multiple characters. Just adding my own thoughts to Shae's.
I personally have no problem with building PC personality having multiple characters. I don't find I'm having trouble with my own multiple characters. Just adding my own thoughts to Shae's.
Again, just my opinion. I sort of have two characters between Shae and Mister, though I try to keep them more or less in the same place.
I would have to say I agree with pretty much everything Shae said. Some of it has been said before but Shae put it very concisely and clearly I think.
One thing that I will mention is that especially for our more martial characters, they rely on equipment much more than the magic users and as such when they are unable to access said necessary equipment the gap between magic users and martial characters widens considerably. The vast majority of the items we have found have been evil aligned and as such unusable, not to mention unsellable for good aligned characters morally to allow such items to be released into the general populace. So a bit less restrictive on gear would be helpful.
As far as battle management goes, a legend would be great. But beyond that more descriptions of what we are seeing and experiencing. Telling us to roll a saving throw is fine but when you don't even mention the spellcasters are casting it makes it hard to know what is going on.
One suggestion is perhaps to let someone help you with combat situations, or if there is a rule question send a PM instead of it being on the boards. One of the benefits of PBP is we can look stuff up without it impacting the game overmuch if it is done on the side and not argued on the board itself.
One thing that perhaps should be a rule is that things should not ever change with how we have been playing them in the middle of a combat. For instance, as an example from the last battle, if Shae has been using his ring as a bonded object in the past and nothing was said, then we wait until the end of the battle to change that. The reason being is because certain plans and strategies may have been put in place based upon the belief that a thing works a certain way because it has worked that way in the past and if it is changed all of a sudden it throws everything off.
One last thing is that this is a game with stats and as such, things like intelligence and wisdom and charisma should be taken into account when dealing with npc's. If I had a 7 charisma instead of a 22 i seriously doubt I would be allowed to play smooth tongued or likeable at all due to the fact that the stat was so low but if that is the case the reverse must also be true which is that if for instance in my case I have the charisma and appeal beyond the abilities of normal people, that should be reflected in the interactions. I am not saying that roleplaying counts for nothing and it should be based upon die rolls but the abilities and architecture of the character should be taken into account at least somewhat.
Anyway those are just some things that would improve my enjoyment a bit. I am enjoying the game when things are relaxed and chill and friendly. In addition the story and plots you have crafted are excellent, if maybe a bit too many of them lol, but I have enjoyed the interactions and play immensely when we all remember that this is a game and as such is supposed to be fun. If we can enjoy what each other are doing then we will have a great game. To give an example when you stinking clouded us I was devastated but at the same time it thought "wow great use of the spell." This I think is a key part of gaming in general and a key part of keeping sane as a DM if you can enjoy what your players are doing as well as what you are doing.
All in all I like this game and the players. Running a PBP is hard, moreso than tabletop IMO. I give Dain mad props for taking on a challenge as large as Kingmaker. I do have a few suggestions that will help dramatically.
1) When in combat it's hard to tell when rounds start. As everything happens at the same time here is how you do it. "Round 1:"-> Everyone posts their actions for ONLY that round. Break it down by type of action if it will help.-> Dm writes a blurb as to what happened based on initiatives. Then Round 2: Repeat. This is a high level game I'm playing in and combat works much more fluidly. I recommend taking a look at the style.
Typically you'll get through a round a day, though this group posts fast, so perhaps more.
2) Re: casting more spells. I've been trying to set myself up as a battle caster, but every time I tried to find some useful arcane tool I was unable. If I had been able to find/buy even a partially charged wand of fireball this combat would have gone very different I suspect. Wizard spells alone can be powerful, but are a very limited resource.
3) Minimize the Non-core non-magical gear. ** spoiler omitted ** Too many weird factors and I don't know how to use it.
In contrast the "poison arrows" were a simple enough to be good, but I have a bias against...
Well - you raise a good question - and also tack course directly into my difficulty with presuming things that won't happen.
Firstly - that is a clay jar with a chemical in it - not unlike a flask of oil.
So - while the bad guy "boss" is burning and consumed with a - if you had simply thrown that on him - (a basic range touch attack) he would have suffered an additional damage - unless this "snake creature" could roll a successful Acrobatics Check - which seems unlikely, given how slow he moves.
Also - you mentioned the poison arrows. If you had been using those instead of regular arrows - that may have been more effective then regular arrows.
I assumed you guys would use that stuff - that was my error, I should not have assumed you would use it. On the other hand - well... that's why I'm looking for suggestions here.
I do appreciate your post, however. It helps to have these suggestions - and that goes to all of you. Thank you!
To all
Guys – currently I have had some issues with how spells such as “Frostbite” seem to work – in which it implies that a Caster can use the spell as a touch attack as many times a round as they have levels. I believe that only means that once the spell is cast, they can apply 1d6+level of damage to 1 attack, or a second attack if they have the BAB for it – or, possibly any appropriate AoO’s - but only for that round.
To suggest you can apply multiple touch attacks to the same target with one hit seems not only unlikely – but fairly broken.
Here is my issue with the rules – as they have been suggested to me (specifically, that you can hit a target for 1d6+ level – and hit that target with as many touch attacks in a round that are equal to your level).
According to what you've seen so far – a spell such as Frostbite would – essentially – allow a 10th level Magus the ability to kill an Adult Red Dragon 1 one round – with a fairly high chance of success (2 at most).
Here’s how –
1. Let’s assume the Magus is level 10 – and has (at least) a 20 in Intelligence. This would mean when he cast 4th level spells – he will be able to cast 2.
2. Let us also assume the Magus has decided to use his weapon – for now, we’ll simply call it a +1 Short Sword – no extra bonus.
3. The Magus only needs to do the following:
A. Use “Combat Casting” to cast and wield a weapon. In this case – he is casting “True Strike” while using his sword.
B. When he uses his sword – he decides to activate “Frostbite”. As you’re reading it now, Frostbite allows him – 1d6 + (1 x level) points of damage for a touch attack which he can do as many times a round as his level.
This would mean that on level 10 he would have (1d6+10) x 10 (via level) – if he decided to dump all his abilities (re: touch attacks per round) in one round, in one attack.
4. Let us assume the Magus has “Maximize Spell” – and is able to boost his damage to Maximum – even though it burns up a 4th level spell (he has 2 possible with an Intelligence of 20).
This would mean the Magus would have done – with this level – the following attack – after using Combat Casting with his off hand:
1. 1d20 + 7 + 20 -2 (via Combat Casting) (Minimum of 26 to hit – even on a 1. He only needs a 29 to hit an Adult Red Dragon)
2. He “Maximized” his spell – which means his damage would be – 160 point of damage in one hit (that is 1d6 + 10 maximized – for 16 points per “level of touch” for a total of 10 levels – for a total of 160 points of damage) – with one hit.
However – he gets 2 attacks a round at this level – which would theoretically mean he would do the same thing again as above. Only this time his attack would be at a -5 – meaning he’d have to roll a 6 or higher on his 1d20 – but once he did – he’d have a second 160 points of damage.
None of this counts the base damage of the +1 Magical Sword – or other bonuses to a blade the Magus may have.
But at the very least, on level 10 – the Magus would have just done in 1 round – to an Adult Red Dragon – giving it no save – a Minimum of 320 points of damage.
Even if the Magus can only do that 1 time a round – if there were 2 Magus’s in the group who used that same ability – and they were lucky enough to get the initiative – then the group would win in the first round.
Now – I’m no expert – but if the CR of a Dragon is at 14 – and 1 Magus is ¼ of CR 10 – then that means that somehow that spell has to be misread. I mean – doesn’t that make sense? I’m trying to get a good read on this – and figure out what’s right – but, I really think that the way the spell is described is somewhat misleading. You can’t possibly gain 1d6 + (level) for every level – and with Frostbite the Dragon is Fatigued without even a Saving Throw until he heals 160 points of damage.
Again – if that’s the angle you want to use – that’s okay – but just understand if I put you against a 7th level Magus who decided to do that once in one round without maximizing his spell – just taking average damage – he’d gain the following damage (on average) to you with one hit – if he used True Strike to hit you – (3 + 4 +3 + 4 +3 +4 +3 + (7x7)) = 73 points of damage – not counting his sword.
Hell – a seventh level Barbarian has a maximum of 84 HP (not counting Constitution Modifiers) – and my damage may be higher. And anyway – what about next round? What if I did it twice in a round? Or if my bad guy was on level 8? That would be (on average, and not counting the sword) 100 points of damage in 1 hit! He may roll higher – his sword has to be factored in to damage – and that is only 1 hit! What will he do next round? What if there are 2 of them?
I just can’t believe the way it is currently being read is correct.
I believe that the spell grants you 1d6+Level in damage as a touch attack. I believe that you can use the same spell to damage more then one enemy, or the same enemy more then once in a round – but only if you have the BAB - or (more probably) - with an AoO. Otherwise – the whole thing becomes insane.
Comments welcome on this matter.
a lv 20 magus gets 20 touches that do 1d6+20 per touch.
So magus casts with Spell-combat and gets the free touch attack for Weapon+(1d6+20 non-lethal)
Then she gets her 3 iterative attacks.
The total for that full-attack is 4x([Weapon]+1d6+12) = 4[weapon]+4d6+80. And that only happens if ALL attacks hit. That's at level 20.
Now, to address your points.
3) He could use Spell-combat to cast True-strike, but that is the only spell he can cast in the round, and it only applies to his next attack roll, which will be at his highest BAB anyway.
b) He would have to wait till the next round to use with spell-combat, and he cannot dump all his touches in one round. He can use one touch as part of the casting. the rest are held. He does not get touches/level per round
(If he uses spell-combat, he takes a -2 penalty on ALL attack rolls that round and can cast the spell as part of a full attack. He can then deliver more touches as part of his regular routine.)
4) lets assume he Maximizes his spell, so it deals max damage.
This means at level 10 the Magus does this:
1. 1d20 + 7 + Str + 20 -2 (via Combat Casting) (Minimum of 26 to hit – even on a 1. He only needs a 29 to hit an Adult Red Dragon) This is the round after he cast True Strike because he connot cast Frostbite the same round as True strike
2. He “Maximized” his spell – which means his damage would be – 6+10 point of non-lethal damage– with one hit.
However – he gets 2 attacks a round at this level – which would theoretically mean he would do the same thing as above two more times. Only this time his attack would not benefit from Truestrike, and the second strike would be at a -5.
None of this counts the base damage of the +1 Magical Sword – or other bonuses to a blade the Magus may have.
But at the very least, on level 10 – the Magus would have just done in 1 round – to an Adult Red Dragon – giving it no save – a Minimum of 48 points of non-lethal damage in addition to the Weapon damage, all iterative attacks hit. First iterative attack is at 7+Str-2, and second is at 2+Str-2. First attack REQUIRES a roll of 19 to hit with a +1 weapon if Str is 18, and the second requires a nat 20 unless the Magus' str is OVER a 30
tl:dr
The magus gets a SINGLE touch attack that deals 1d6+level in non-lethal damage that she can channel through her weapon on the turn she casts it.
If Magus 1 uses Spell-combat, she can do a full attack in addition to her casting. At level 10, this lets her do an attack at 1d20+7+str-2 in order to deal +1d6+10 and take another attack at 1d20+2+str-2 to do that much damage again.
If she is able to hit with ALL THREE attacks, she can deal 3 + 3d6+30 damage. that is average 37 damage extra if ALL hit.
She has 7 more charges, and with each attack she makes she can deal 1d6+10 but cannot use Spell-Combat again, or cast any spells, or th rest of the charges are lost.
Magus 2 casts an Intensified Shocking Grasp (Lv2) with Spell-combat and deals 10d6+weapon on his free attack. HE then gets iterative attacks. He hits as many times as Magus 1 and deals 3 + 35 Electric damage, all lethal (his electric damage is somewhere between 10 and 60 and is delivered on the first hit)
He then can use Spell-Combat again the next round, or cast any other spell.
in summary, at level 10
Magus1 has to full attack and hit with ALL attacks to average 2 more damage on average than Magus 2.
If magus 1 misses with a single attack, Magus 2 has out-damaged her without even needing to do Spell-combat to make iterative attacks. Magus 2 may have dealt significantly more damage with that single attack if the roll was above average. All lethal damage.
[frostbite can deal more damage, but it is all and does so over MANY MANY rounds]
All of your points agree with what I suggested earlier with regards to BAB/AoO.
Now - here's where I am/was confused -
you seem to be suggesting/saying that if you cast the spell it lasts one attack per level?
Which means if you cast "frostbite" on level 10 - for example - it lasts for 10 attacks?
That means if in round 1 you choose to cast it and do 2 attacks (whether they hit or not, you expended the charges when you attack) because of BAB, and then do 3 more attacks via AoO - then you have used it 5 times, and can use it 5 more times (if you're on level 10) before the spell has "burned out" and you've expended the spell completely?
If that is correct - then I have discovered where my issue lays, and it seems to be solved.
Namely - my problem was over the reading of using a spell "As many times as you have levels" - which I took to mean you could combine the damage in 1 hit.
As I read it now, you have to spread the damage out over many hits - again, via BAB or AoO - once the full amount of spells per level have been cast - then the character has to cast it again (or another spell, if they choose to).
So - my problem was that I believed that once you cast Frostbite you were automatically gaining (as of now) an additional 4d6+16 damage per a single attack (re: (1d6+4)x4) - and then saying "Well - I used all my touch attacks in one attack for the round, and am now casting it again".
If that was the case - that's completely different - and I'm totally cool with you using the damage the way you've been using it. Namely - burning one "Charge" per attack (via BAB, AoO - and no more charges then level).
But - and this is something that will help me in the future - please change the coding for your attack with the weapon. Perhaps something like -
Sword attack -
1d6 + X damage
Frostbite (Charge 1 of 4)
1d6+4 - non-lethal damage
That way I would know what is going on a little better. As of now, things have been very confusing during combat for me to try to remember everyone's spells and powers (not just enemies, but the abilities you guys used) - and to make it worse - it seems that not everyone bothers to do this - people will cast things, then they forget they cast things, and then cast them again.
If I have a villain cast a 1 hit wonder spell twice, even by accident - trust me; I hear of it :)
Anyway - we can talk more about this later, if you'd like. And I do appreciate your help in understanding the matter better. Thank you very much on it - and the only thing we'd need to do is figure out a way to do coding a little better so I know what's going on.
Thanks Dain for npcing Ariarh and Isani (just remember in game Kae is Ry's "big brother" as he is older ;)). From tomorrow onwards I will be running my characters. I however will not be posting with the same regularity this week, just so you are all aware. Thanks.
Is this the spell you're talking about
School transmutation [cold:
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range touch
Targets creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
Your melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of nonlethal cold damage + 1 point per level, and the target is fatigued. The fatigued condition ends when the target recovers from the nonlethal damage. This spell cannot make a creature exhausted even if it is already fatigued. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
For sake of comparison lets compare to another touch spell. How about:
Shocking Grasp
School evocation [electricity]; Level magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range touch
Target creature or object touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
Your successful melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 5d6). When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or is carrying a metal weapon or is made of metal).
As I read it frostbite is a touch attack that can be "held" until used, like any other. Meaning if you miss you don't lose the spell. However, once you hit the spell is expended. The duration of "instantaneous" means it happens then is gone.
The only difference spell combat adds into the mix is that you can cast touch spells through your weapon, gaining a regular attack along with the spells effects.
My 2C
Edit: Just read the "Up to one time per level" part of frostbite. Let me do some research and get back to you.
Upon further review:
I made a mistake, but in my defense the spell is poorly written.
When you cast Frostbite you effectively have "charges" that are expended at a rate of one per successful attack. The number of charges you have are equal to your caster level.
So a 6th level caster using Frostbite can make 6 touch attacks. Now if you have more than one successful attack per round you will expend multiple charges per round. "Range: Target creature touched" means that one could cast the spell on an ally (or enemy or squirrel or whatever) and let them do the touching. As the spell is written the charges don't expire, ever. However once the creature (or sword in case of spell strike) touches anything the charges are automatically expended. So if you sheathe the sword your sheathe will take sub dual cold damage and expend charges. However since inanimate objects are immune to sub dual damage it won't have any game effect beyond expending charges.
The only difference with spell strike is that the charges are in the weapon as opposed to the caster, but it's effectively the same otherwise.
The main benefit of Frostbite is not the cold damage, but the fatigued condition. Seeing as how the fatigued condition doesn't stack to exhausted, I really don't think having multiple charges is that big of a deal. For that matter having them never expire is also not a big deal seeing as how they wouldn't really be able to touch anything that they were not in contact with at the time of casting. Technically this would mean they couldn't walk either as they would be touching a new part of the ground, but there is no need to get that Meta about it. Let the caster walk without expending charges. It's magic. It doesn't always have to make sense. However, if they needed to be touched by someone else, like being healed, the healer would take cold damage for touching a frostbite-charged caster. Again, in the case of a magus spell strike the spell is in the weapon, not the caster, so the caster could be touched and healed as long as the weapon was held by the caster and not touched by anyone else.
If a magus is going for sheer damage output they'd be much better to use Shocking grasp to add an extra 5d6 and a +3 bonus to hit if the enemy is wearing metal armor.
My humble recommendation is to let the Magus have the charges stay in the weapon until she sheaths it, expends the charges, or otherwise drops the weapon. Magic is funky and It's not that big of a deal. That's how I see it anyway.
the developers are of the opinion that dropping the weapon and even drawing a new one should not cause held touch spells to be discharged but only for a magus.
Has to do with the nature of their magic being connected so intimately with their weapons that they can drop, and draw a new weapon or retrieve the dropped weapon and not burn charges. but yeah, it's really just for the fatiguing strike and the staying power of the bonus damage that i like Frostbite.
It's all non-lethal after all.
the developers are of the opinion that dropping the weapon and even drawing a new one should not cause held touch spells to be discharged but only for a magus.
Has to do with the nature of their magic being connected so intimately with their weapons that they can drop, and draw a new weapon or retrieve the dropped weapon and not burn charges. but yeah, it's really just for the fatiguing strike and the staying power of the bonus damage that i like Frostbite.
It's all non-lethal after all.
Fair enough. It was their creation after all.
Two quick things -
1. Non-lethal or not is irrallavent - mainly because the objective is to defeat your enemy. If you knock them unconscious- then you can defeat them with a coup-de-grace fairly easily, no worries there.
2. The issue regarding imbuing the weapon with charges is a very gray area. One theory seems to suggest that - as Shaezon says - once you touch the weapon (a touch attack) to a target - you expend the spell. It does not specify living targets - which makes good sense if you are fighting undead or constructs - but on the same time - it coincides with the issues of touching it to your sheath - or touching it to the ground. If you drop it - it would theoretically loose a charge by hitting the ground - just as easily as it would as if you hit a door to damage it - or a sword to sunder it.
On the other hand - Kae makes a good point about the nuance of how a Magus should work - there are specific differences for Magus's that most classes don't have already - this could be one of them, and seems reasonable to suggest a Magus's does not expend a "charge" - unless he declares he is doing so via the attack - any more then a wizard would to damage a potion when he drinks it - even if he has a few charges left.
The best solution - as I see it: Once a Magus has imbued a weapon with a spell that has "Charges" put on it - they must declare in advance with the attack if they intend to use them - or not. If Kae wanted his cohort to strike a target with her sword and do only standard damage - even though the spell has been cast - that seems reasonable. He needs to declare it. If he does not declare it - then it would not work, any more then if he attempted to strike a door.
Personally - I think the whole thing is ridiculous. In my mind I see Clari "charge" her blade with an eerie magical energy - it glow with a bright light of power - and when it strikes an object - be it a sword, or armor - or the floor - or a door - the object suffers the damage done - regardless of whether or not that was intended - any more then a Jedi has the right to call a "do-over" for cutting through his own hand with a lightsaber.
However - in this case I shall say "If she charges it - and has a set amount of charges - she shall have to declare for each attack if she is using the charge - or not. The charge isn't used if she misses, in any case - but she does have to say one way or the other before hand" - this puts it on a thieves special ability to use a sap as lethal/non-lethal - they can go either way - they just need to say what their preference is up front.
Naturally - if Kae/Clari decided to use another spell - it instantly negates the remaining charges in the blade.
Conclusion" Basically - this last combat was a headache for nearly all of us. I believe that was mainly due to the fact that it was badly organized - and poorly explained. The next time I decide to have something as "epic" as a final fight that everyone wins without even losing a character (clearly a sign my combats are way too easy ;) - then I need to at least be on the ball - as all of us - and make sure that the combat is as organized and well written as possible.
I will do that in the future.
One final note - When the CEO of Paizo meets with Gary Gygax - and the creators of all Role-Playing games living dead and yet to be born - and come to a unanimous consensus on a point in the game - remember; in the end that is how they run it. I will probably agree with how they decode a vague rule or concept - but their opinion is not law. If the rule doesn't make sense (I'm talking about vague issues here - not concrete and obvious ones) - and I need to understand it concretely - simply saying someone else solved the issue does not make it so.
I need to be convinced that a rule is correctly interpreted in this game - given the way I run the challenges. If I'm not convinced on their arguments - it is not likely to happen.
But remember - I generally listen to you guys more then a third party anyway - and generally my opinions will be swayed by you guys. If you come up with something that I don't agree with - I may argue with you - or challenge you - or disagree - but generally I go along with what you guys recommend, if you guys present me with a clear argument that makes sense - and I will continue to do that over a third party's opinion.
I hope that clears things up - and I hope the issue about "charges" now makes a little more sense. If Clari has 4 charges on her blade - she needs to tell me each hit - before she rolls - if she intends to use it or not - and if she doesn't hit - it doesn't matter. So far - Waiph has been doing that anyway - but to be clear - that's how it needs to keep going so there aren't any issues regarding confusing rules - or how they are understood.
Today at 2 pm my time (12am EST in the US) I have an appointment I need to get to -- it will take 2 hours. If my characters are required to act during my absence then please NPC them. Thanks.
no worries!
Hopefully it won't come to that - also I don't think the guys will be up that long... but; we shall see...
To all:
Well, to say the least - this battle has - from the beginning - been extremely confusing - with a lot of ret-con and other issues.
We had the same problem at the canyon fight, too - when that battle was very confusing and downright annoying - if not outright frustrating.
The only reason I'm letting things go the way they are - and unfold the way they do - is because I've been putting together notes on how I want things to develop in the game for later - what works, what doesn't - and what I need to do to improve the game.
At this time I'm absolutely clear that combat is generally a mess because of poor communication/organization - and (generally) some other issues I need to fix.
This last part of the battle, as annoying as it may be - is functioning as a teaching tool for me - on what I need to do better to make things work for all of us - to be more fun, and smoother.
At the least I am looking into figuring out how to get what software is needed for me to run "MapTools" formally - so I can actually just host a battle. That at least picks up the pace, and keeps things a hell of a lot smoother.
Of course - there are some other things I need to do, too.
For now - this combat is still rough - I have not sent out a map (on purpose - after all, many Play By Post games don't do that - and yet they do okay - I wondered how - and what I could do to make that work for me - if I could do full battle narration - or if it would not work, for example).
In the past few days I have generally let issues develop for the party if they aren't clear on posting things - for example; at this time we know that Shaezon never rolled Ini - we don't know where he is in the battle...
If that is true - does that mean Shaezon doesn't go at all? Does it mean he was "holding action" all this time until he needed to - or something else? I'm not entirely sure myself - so I'm sort of playing it by ear on that matter.
Did I want Shae to act? Well - it's pretty much up to him, actually.
If he wants to act - he can act - if he wants to "hold action" - and the creature suddenly attacks him with some weird poison that kills him with one blow because he didn't do anything - what then?
I'm not entirely sure, myself - Play by Post is great for story, social RP and narrative - it generally sucks for combat - I think we can all agree on that point.
I like combat in gaming - but not the way it is set up - I'd rather things were fun, and easy - like a video game - but we have basic issues which all of us have seen over and over - it's making combat not only not fun (to me) - but downright frustrating, and killing my enjoyment for the game. Even so - it's a part of the game - how do I do it better on Play by Post?
So what should have been a fairly easy mop-up (you guys get the girl - save the day - then end the fight for book 2 to conclude and "reboot") - has suddenly taken a turn because the combat got more snarly, because before we come back next "chapter" - I want to know specifically where the flaws are - and what I can do to fix them.
I want to chat with the players individually and find out what I can do to make the game run better for them - then compare notes - and see what I can do for the group as a whole - not discounting my own personal interests/needs.
Point is - don't be too stressed with this part of the story. Well - that's not fair - be stressed - be frustrated - be annoyed, be very annoyed - and that goes for everyone - but take a moment and figure out what you are annoyed with - and what annoys you most - and then tell me, and then I'll have a foundation on what I can fix.
I want the annoyance now - not to drive anyone away - but to make people say, basically "You know - I was having a blast - but this really sucks - and I hate it, and it makes me not want to play anymore!" - then I could say "Really? When you say "it" - what exactly are you referring to?" - and then we can go from there.
So yeah - short answer - this part of the combat is drawn out more then even I would like it - but it's not accidental - I want to know what works - I want to see why other people can have a combat on the board via Play By Post and have it go easy without them using Maps and Skype and all that - and when we have maps and Skype - and plenty of shared details - it still has trouble. I want to identify the trouble specifically - then fix it - because I want the game to be great - and when we have our "downtime" and come back - I want people to come back to a game that is completely awesome for everyone!
Anyhow - that's my plan. I hope that helps - and I hope that you guys see why I'm doing what I'm doing - and that we all get through this and have a great time - especially with what I have coming up in book 2.
I think that one of the most important things a GM can provide his/her group is effective communication -- and if we aren't using maps/maptools/skype then people do need to know what is going on exactly and the GM has to be specific and spell it all out clearly. I'm visual and it can be VERY hard for me to picture scenarios without enough information or the GM's second-guessed information and locations of the PCs (and even when initiative order suddenly changes). I'm very frustrated with this in game as it happens more often when we do combat.
I think the confusing thing for me is that I am a writer and not a gamer. As a writer, we're specific : scenes, actions, descriptions etc and I can follow such things easily/readily. In this gaming world, none of the writing rules seem to apply in how things are explained, set out, laid out, and it's difficult for me to determine what is actually happening and then make a thoughtful, appropriate, effective response. I'm still learning the rules of this game ... That is hard in itself. Without a proper scenario setup, it's twice as hard for me.
So, yes to better, fuller descriptions -- give us as much as we need to do our jobs in game more effectively (and smoothly).
I agree. Effective communication is key. I will keep that in mind. I too am visual - and the details sell the story.
Personally - I loathe the way combat goes - and how it has gone - and the combat in general makes me want to quit my own game.
But I'd like to fix that - so I can have fun gaming - and I presume you guys feel the same way, too. That is - we all want to have fun, and no one wants to be frustrated. I just want to see what is going on - and how to fix it.
On my end - I need to hear feedback from players.
That's the reason for this post, now - I'm looking for direct feedback.
When I get it - I'll revamp how I do things - then I'll send out an update on how things will work in the future, and we can go from there.