Simple Zombie Question

[Count_Rugen]

Take your standard run-of-the-mill zombie from the PF bestiary. Now drop it's hit points so that it only has 1 hp (ala, the 4E "mook").

How much experience would it be worth? What loot (if any) would it drop?

Thanks!

[Nightskies]

If it were an open playing field, with a single hitpoint zombie against a party of 4 fully equipped first level characters, I'd give them nothing. Its a 1/8 CR monster (a 1/2 HD zombie) put in a situation that it shouldn't have a remote chance of even swinging at the PCs. Its not even slightly dangerous. But put it in a group with four other zombies with one hitpoint, and a single uninjured medium zombie, surrounding them in a graveyard, then that's a different story- that's a CR 1 encounter. Gauge the encounter as a whole in terms of how hard it is for the characters to overcome at full strength.

[mcbobbo]

I'd say the CR drops something like 1/6 or 1/8. XP and treasure would work normally off of that, as per the gamemastering guidelines.

[Count_Rugen]

Thanks folks. The general plan is for it to be a zombie swarm (or steady stream of single zombies) of 1 hp mooks attacking a lone PC.

[Sentack]

Count_Rugen wrote:

Thanks folks. The general plan is for it to be a zombie swarm (or steady stream of single zombies) of 1 hp mooks attacking a lone PC.

The 4e Mechanic for "Minions" (which is what the 1HP mooks are called) is the following.

1) Take your standard monster
2) Reduce his HP's to 1 HP
3) He keeps his standard attack bonus but only gets 1 attack
4) Make him do 1/2 the average damage the monster would with it's main attack, round down. Static number, no rolling.
5) Multiple the number of them by 4
6) Each one is worth 1/4th the normal XP of the standard monster (killing all 4 nets you the original Exp value)

That's about it.

They are intended to be good cannon-fodder for those who dish out area based attacks and allow a DM to pad an encounter out with a few more monsters then the standard 1x monster per player, +1 monster if you want a hard encounter.

A whole fight of "minions" usually isn't that much fun.

Minions are great on paper but in practice they have issues.

1) Players who don't do area attacks, ignore them and go for the monsters with real HP's.
2) Players who do area attacks, feel like you just threw them in for them.
3) If 3+ of them hit one player in a round, the damage adds up FAST.
4) They can slow down a combat a lot.

It would be interesting to see if someone how it would work out in Pathfinder. One of the issues in PF over 4e is that in 4e, you have several classes that can routinely attack 2-4 monsters in one attack, every round. So losing 2-3 Minions in one turn isn't unheard of. That seems slightly more rare in PF, of course I could be wrong. A fighter with Cleave would find Minions amusing to face.

[Aspasia de Malagant]

I like the idea of the "minion" designation, but 1hp is far too trivial in my opinion as the game scales in level. At low level, sure 1hp is just fine, but at higher level it is just not an obstacle at all.

[Sentack]

Aspasia de Malagant wrote:

I like the idea of the "minion" designation, but 1hp is far too trivial in my opinion as the game scales in level. At low level, sure 1hp is just fine, but at higher level it is just not an obstacle at all.

I'm actually curious. How is 1HP fine at level 1 but somehow different at level 20? It's all the same concept. If the player hits, they kill the target. If they Miss, the target stays alive.

Oh, that's rule 7 that I forgot.

7) Creature doesn't die if the player misses, no matter what the attack was. (In PF terms, I would say, if it succeeds it's Save vs spell, it takes 0 damage, period.)

---

The point of minions is not to survive, or take only a 'small amount of damage' and die. The intent is to kill player actions. You're taking away actions the players could be using against other targets. You're helping delay the combat some. You're putting obsiticles for charging and shifting. Minions are not damage monsters, they are like hindering terrain that the players can destroy.

[PathfinderSteve]

Aspasia de Malagant wrote:

I like the idea of the "minion" designation, but 1hp is far too trivial in my opinion as the game scales in level. At low level, sure 1hp is just fine, but at higher level it is just not an obstacle at all.

I think when a level 10 Barbarian swings that massive chopper at a mook, it does not really matter if it has 1 or 10 or 20 or maybe even 30hp, if the swing connects the zombie is dead......erm again

[Sekret_One]

I dunno man... having poked at 4th edition a couple of times I found minions to be very lame.

I know the point is to make you feel like so bad-arse out of an action movie just dropping things, but if feels way too artificial. I think you'd be better off throwing the young template on a couple zombies... maybe dropping their DR to 2

Young template
Quick Rules: +2 to all Dex-based rolls, –2 to all other rolls, –2 hp/HD.

Then you've got a few zombies with 8 hp, 2 dr/slashing, +2 1d6+2 slam.

Maybe throw in a special weakness called "dismembered" where if they are at half health or less, their attacks and damage are further reduced by -2 attack -2 damage and they immediately fall prone (they can get back up).

If it's one level 1 character fighting these, you could roll a d8 for each zombie that pops up, meaning some will just start dismembered (and very easy to kill).

Your player will feel way cooler fighting off a few of these than sixteen mook zombies. A combat char will still drop them usually in a hit, aoe is effective but not ridiculous (even weak level 1 aoe moves might dismember the zombies for crowd control) they can hurt but don't have some of the insane swarm issues you can get with 'mook minions.'

[Black_Lantern]

Aspasia de Malagant wrote:

I like the idea of the "minion" designation, but 1hp is far too trivial in my opinion as the game scales in level. At low level, sure 1hp is just fine, but at higher level it is just not an obstacle at all.

Are you trolling or just stupid? One hit at any level they're dead.

[Son of the Veterinarian]

I'm OK with the general idea, but if it were me I'd only give the PC's the one-hit-kill if they remembered to specify that they were going for the head.

[Aspasia de Malagant]

Sentack wrote:

I'm actually curious. How is 1HP fine at level 1 but somehow different at level 20? It's all the same concept. If the player hits, they kill the target. If they Miss, the target stays alive.

Oh, that's rule 7 that I forgot.

7) Creature doesn't die if the player misses, no matter what the attack was. (In PF terms, I would say, if it succeeds it's Save vs spell, it takes 0 damage, period.)

---

The point of minions is not to survive, or take only a 'small amount of damage' and die. The intent is to kill player actions. You're taking away actions the players could be using against other targets. You're helping delay the combat some. You're putting obsiticles for charging and shifting. Minions are not damage monsters, they are like hindering terrain that the players can destroy.

So you are saying that the "barbarian" can't roll low or minimum damage, giving the zombie a chance to take some hit points off that barbarian before it falls in the next swing? Your concept of minion sounds just like 4e, which is not the concept I go with. I see them as slightly weaker versions of the main "boss" of the encounter. Do they fulfill the purpose you outlined, yes, but they can do more than just be "action thieves". They need to be a real threat to the PC's, just less of a threat, but not to the point of trivial.

[Aspasia de Malagant]

Black_Lantern wrote:

Are you trolling or just stupid? One hit at any level they're dead.

Sounds like you are trying to stir up some hate and anger here. You appear to be stuck on 4e methodology to make such an ignorant statement...

Read my reply to Sentack for what I think minions should be about.

You guys make it sound as if I'm some sort of 4e fanboy or something. Nothing could be further from the truth...

[Sentack]

Aspasia de Malagant wrote:

Your concept of minion sounds just like 4e, which is not the concept I go with.

Count_Rugen was basicly asking how much experience a PF version of a Minion would be. I decided to clarify what a "minion" looks like and then at the end, explain that when all those conditions are true, the "Mook" is worth 1/4th the normal Exp of a monster. So if he makes his mook identical to a minion, it could be worth 1/4th the normal Exp. Allowing him to add 4 mooks per regular monster.

So yeah, it looks like 4e Minion because I was defining a 4e Minion because that's what it looks like Count_Rugen wanted.

Now, if you don't want a Minion, you could just go with a 'lower CR' monster and re-skin it to whatever you want. Or check out the rules for making your own monsters and use those as guidelines.

Honestly, the "Minion" concept was a great experiment, that didn't work out as well as you would expect. Once players got wise to them, they stopped being monsters and almost became something else to the players. Something not worth most of their time.

What I did use once that actually seemed a little more useful was the "Halfster" Or "One-Half Monster". Take a normal monster (nothing too fancy), cut the HP's in half. Cut the damage in Half. Now put two of them on the board. There you go, the "Halfster". They die amazingly fast but players seem to take the threat a little more seriously. Plus they help flank, they can aid other monsters in attacking or are just great for blocking the way for charges. Those were fun, I should try them again.

[Count_Rugen]

Sentack wrote:

Honestly, the "Minion" concept was a great experiment, that didn't work out as well as you would expect. Once players got wise to them, they stopped being monsters and almost became something else to the players. Something not worth most of their time.

Theyre not an experiment, theyre fantastic. :) I've used minions to great effect in both 4E and PF. The trick is to simply not be obvious. I.e., 1 monster would be a minion, but the next wouldn't, and so forth, so they never know what strength their enemy is.

[Mr.Fishy]

Mr. fishy would suggest you buy your zombies from Papa Loa's House of Zombies. 1 HP zombies? That guy ripped you off. You should have him eaten.

[Son of the Veterinarian]

And don't make the mistake of buying the ones from the mall...

They're pie-eyed.

[Mr.Fishy]

Son of the Veterinarian wrote:

And don't make the mistake of buying the ones from the mall...

They're pie-eyed.

Got you too! Mr.Fishy's where fish eyed charged extra...he tastelike munchkin.