Low magic world, idea phase right now

[Tark of the Shoanti]

I just got done reading Blackdog, highly suggested reading, and I am toying with the idea of a low magic world. By this, I mean the world is much like the Ebberron setting in 3.5, where people who have actually character class levels are rare, VERY rare.
At times a level 2 or maybe 3 Oracle might wanted from town to town reading fortunes, trying to get by. Also, in the world, there are ancient, long dead times and civilizations, but they were no masters of lost arcane and divine secrets. They simply came and went.
And one major point as well, the gods inhabit the lands. By this I mean one goddess might look after a particular lake, while another might roam a whole mountain range, while another tends a simple spring in the wastes.

At the moment, I am looking at allowing, for spell casters, Druids, Oracles, Sorcerers, and Witches only. Clerics don't exist at this point in the evolution of the religious world. The Ranger will lose his casting ability to be replaced by Traps, or maybe something else, not 100% on this yet. Paladins are not there, the Cavalier will replace them. Magus is not there, as is the Gunfighter, Ninja,Samaria, Inquisitors, or Summoners as well.

All magic is tied to the earth, the world itself, and believed to come from the gods, arcane or divine.

As it stands, that's all I have toyed with so far for classes. Constructive comments will be much appreciated.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

As a wizard-god, this is where I want to live.

[Helaman]

Have you looked at E6 as a possibility? It doesn't help your game world per se but the concept works.

Peasants/Simple Craftsmen are lvl 1 commoners, the town watchman/militia is likely to be commoners with Simple Weapon Feat and Light Armour Feat(assuming human) with soldiers being level 1 warriors. The odd Expert here to represent Thieves, doctors etc works fine.

As the characters top out at level 6, the characters will be able to deal with small numbers of normals but in large groups or well led, they are still a threat so the characters feel badass without striding your game world like a colossus. Use the slow XP track and you've got something that will take the characters a long time to get there.

Gods? Entities, or people who through gift, hardwork, genetics or whatever have managed to ignore or bypass this E6 condition, and can be represented by level 10 to level 12 beings. Throw in slowed or non aging as a feature and compared to the common man, they are godlike. To even the best of the best of the best (level 6 characters) they are still awe inspiring and worthy of great respect.

Example: Zeus? Titan... Heracles? Level 6 time and getting a bit cocky, is invited to be a Demi God and given access to Olympus.

Your magic system doesn't necessarily have to be in line with your Pantheon system... You look like you are going 'raw' and 'undeveloped' magic, which is a fine concept genre wise but when it comes time to play some players may find it too restrictive. Other magic using classes can still exist in this sort of setting - they are the Newtons, Pythagoras's etc of the world, setting down the theoretical foundations for higher learning but not mastering it themselves and only have a few disciples to hand on this lore to. Magical libraries and shops with scrolls etc in them simply don't exist... A single tome on magical theory would be a treasure in itself giving access to learn (not cast from the book) a spell. That spell could be all the treasure a Wizard craves.

E6 will allow you access to the other classes without them getting too big for their britches, raising the dead, teleporting around and so. Access to level 4 magic simply doesn't exist... for Mortals.

Setting wise? If you say Low magic then it MUST be LOW magic. No Magic items of significance (ie +1 etc) until 4th-5th level should be guideline and once given should be treated like they are the mutts nuts, bees knees and other bits of assorted animals (adding some flavour like a few Trait level bonuses or powers to make +1 items distinct is very recommended). A magic item like a charm that grants +1 saves once a day or once only would be the special item of this setting (trait level makes for a good guideline). Access to a new spell is a BIG deal - limit initial spell access (with maybe using APG, UM and UC spells like GM approval only access) even for clerics until they've gotten a line to a 'god' - such a character (level 1 or 2) would be a 'Saint' or 'Prophet' in such a setting.

In this environment, Spell casters will feel like they've a huge set of big brass ones but if you throw in RP challenges to round it out (such as fear and resentment creating a need for secrecy and so) and that they need to save their spell slots to aid the group with stuff like "magic weapon" for the Badass creatures then it works fine. If done right, a DR5/Magic creature should be a BIG threat and a nigh invulnerable killing machine as far as your average commoner is concerned... to your level 1 or 2 characters? Its gonna be a hard slog to put such a creature down and requiring the mage or what have you to burn spells to assist party members to do the deed. A single werewolf (needing Magic or Silver) is gonna be dangerous to the point of near TPK if the casters don't help the party even at level 4 to 5 and yet they will never be so powerful that the casters can think of taking on such a creature on their own.

Your monster selection needs to be carefully considered as the instant you start putting in too many creatures that require magic to kill, you will frustrate the hell out of your non casters or you will find yourself handing out magic items and breaking the whole low magic thing and making the PCs the best 'armed' boys on the block... needing MORE magic items to balance against THAT and so on and so on until you've lost it.

[mcbobbo]

Rather than saying 'rangers cannot cast spells', you might instead communicate this as 'rangers must select from the following archetypes' - none of which, coincidentally, can cast spells.

:)

An angle you might consider is that of wild magic. Dangerous, explosive stuff, or possibly attractive to dark powers, acting as a beacon to them. Blame it on proximity to the gods. This way you can have a low magic setting and still have fantasy games.

[cranewings]

All I run is E6 anymore, because I enjoy these kinds of settings.

The problem you will run into if you don't cut off high level characters is that in a low magic world, characters with magic can squash everything and the NPCs in character won't know what to do.

In Golarion, what happens if you lead an army to a castle to find a magic princess? You can't scry her because they enchanted or leaded up the walls. Your army can't get in because if you cast stone to mud, the abjurer inside just dispels it.

In your world, there is no Abjurer inside to keep the party on the rails, so when they get to your castle they just scry and stone to mud all over it.

That's a part of why you should stop level advancement at 6. Slow the rate you level the characters. Make NPCs really low level. When the party is 3rd, they will feel like they are 12th. Just assure them that to convert their characters to normal pathfinder you have to multiply their level by 4. It takes the sting out.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

As far as magic items go, yes, there aren't any laying around. At all. Items and gear will have "condition" bonuses and such to them, but no flaming broadswords or "enchanted" gear at all.
Magic isn't that advanced in this world, which is why there are only going to be the 4 caster classes and no hybrid casters like Bards, Rangers*, Paladins, and Magus.
*I am looking into was of revamping the Ranger to not have spells, might end up taking on of the various "Scout" classes instead from other settings if I can't find a way to make it work.

The experience will be slow progression for sure. I hate the fast leveling, and I have players who agree. It seems just as you are getting a grasp on one set of abilities and how to combo them, bing, new level and all new abilities to start to work in when you haven't gotten used to the others yet. (most of my group in new to pen and paper RPGs.)

As for dealing with magic. It's not going to be overly dangerous, but say a caster does walk up and start something flashy like that in a big battle, do you think they'd survive the storm of arrows sent at them (a la Hero), cause they enemy will know they are a caster well before the battles begin due to how rare they are and how rumor travels fast on these matters.

For the most part, it's going to be a low magic world with a gritty feel. One thing I do plan on using to overcome this lack of "magic items" or "Christmas tree effect" is a enhancement bonus that scales with the characters as they level, much like in the 4th Ed of Dark Sun. It will give them a overall bonus to attack rolls, as well as to AC. Plus, with this being a low magic world, many of the monsters that are tied very closely to magic won't be there.

Still in the works on fluff and scrounging for crunch on races, as the elves will be semi nomads, much like mongols or the "dalish" elves in Dragon Age (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elves).
The dwarves will not be mountain masters, but more like highlands of Scotland (or the Wildhammer dwarves from Wow). (http://www.wowwiki.com/Wildhammer_clan)
The gnome race doesn't exist at all in this world, and I am toying now with the halfling race, I will most likely make them arboreal in nature.
Thanks for the heads up about the E6 stuff, I will look into what I can find.
Again, constructive comments are always more then welcome.

[Helaman]

With E6 there is no need to scale bonuses vs the big six... it does caps out then.

Gnomes can work fine - just not as Golarion gnomes - maybe they are the deep mountain dwellers your highlander dwarves arent? Drop the multi-coloured hair and change sense of humour to "cruel sense of humour" and you've got something that works.

Your call on the hybrids of course but it can work even with hybrids - under E6 the biggest spell they get is 2nd level and they dont get access to those until 4th.

I'd also like to suggest the part leveling thing if you want slow progression...

"Steps are an easy and fast way to measure your character’s progress from one level to the next—they’re mini-levels that let you improve your character after every game. Because you normally get at least one Step after each game session, you know that at the end of each game you can expect to improve your character a little bit, and after four games, you can expect to gain a level.

A character class’s abilities for each level fall into four categories: Hit points/base attack bonus, saving throws, skill points, and special (all other class abilities, such as a rogue’s sneak attack, wizard spellcasting, and so on). Every time you gain a Step, you choose one of these four categories of abilities from your next level. The next time you gain a Step, you choose one of the remaining three categories, and so on until your fourth Step, at which time you gain the fourth category of abilities and reach a new character level."

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/AlternativeLevelAdvancement.pdf

Very very cool.

Finally some stuff for low magic you may like - I took this from another site but cant remember where.

Common Defenses Versus the Supernatural or Magical

All sorts of horrible monsters stalk the average fantasy world. Against many of these creatures, the common people have little defense. How do the common folk manage to stay alive when a single mob of shadows could lay waste to the average hamlet?

Adventurers are a big help but Adventurers aren’t supposed to be a dime a dozen. They can’t be everywhere all the time. What common means of defense against supernatural monsters exist?

Fire
With many supernatural or abnormal threats someone’s probably going to set some thing on fire in order to destroy it. Fire has a long history of use as a purifier. In the game, fire gets deployed a lot, especially against regenerating monsters and when taking out groups of foes conveniently clustered together in fireball formation. Other monsters, such as mummies, have well-known vulnerabilities to fire.

Some creatures have a lesser vulnerability to fire. Against fire-based attacks, these monsters suffer +1 point of dam-age per damage die. Fire-users need to take care, however. Not all lesser vulnerabilities to fire apply to mundane fire. In these cases, only magical fire causes extra damage.

Holy Symbols
What could be more iconic than the stalwart monster hunter holding a vampire at bay with a boldly presented crucifix? Anyone can present a holy symbol associated with their faith in an attempt to hold supernatural evil at bay. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity targeted against vulnerable creatures within a 30-foot spread who have both line of sight to the presenter and the holy symbol.

If the presenter has faith in the symbol/religion, the presenter makes a Will save which is opposed by the Will saves of the affected creature. If an affected creature’s Will save is less than the presenter’s Will save, then the single affected creature is dazed for 1 round. If the presenter scores a natural 20 on his Will save, all affected creatures within range are dazed for 1 round regardless of their respective Will saves. The presenter can attempt to hold supernatural evil at bay repeatedly.

One cannot attempt this mundane use of a holy symbol while using the channel energy class feature but those who possess the channel energy class feature add 1 to the roll for every D6 of energy they could manifest – which can be counted towards the generation of a ‘natural 20’ result. For instance a 5th level cleric who uses a Holy Symbol this way can generate a Natural 20 result with a 17+

Iron
Iron (and steel) also works quite well against incorporeal undead, as well as the Fey. Normal iron’s properties affect the fey and the incorporeal undead differently:

Normal iron and fey: Normal iron doesn’t bypass DR, but it does harm fey creatures. A normal iron or steel weapon enjoys a +50% bonus to damage rolls against fey. An iron implement (such as a horseshoe) that is held against a fey’s skin for one full round burns the fey creature for 1d6 points of damage. Even touching iron is generally enough to cause pain and possibly inflict a point or two of damage.

Normal iron and incorporeal undead: Normal iron weapons (including improvised weapons) cannot inflict damage on an incorporeal undead, but they can disrupt its form. Striking an incorporeal undead with an iron weapon forces the monster to make a DC 15 Will save. If it fails, the incorporeal undead is disrupted.

While disrupted, the incorporeal undead can only take a single move action each round. It becomes invisible and cannot be harmed by weapons of any type. Magic and channeling energy can still harm a disrupted incorporeal undead. Each round at the beginning of its turn, a disrupted incorporeal undead gets to make a DC 15 Will save as a free action. If it succeeds, it is no longer disrupted and may act normally. A disrupted incorporeal undead gets a +1 bonus on this Will save for each round that it has been disrupted.

Running Water
Some supernatural creatures cannot cross running water. They can’t even use bridges or fly over running water. This is one more reason why most communities are built near rivers or streams.

When confronted with running water, a supernatural creature with this vulnerability can attempt a DC 15 Will save. Success allows it to cross the running water, but the creature is treated as if staggered during the crossing. Failure means the monster simply cannot cross under its own power. It could, however, have a minion or vehicle carry it, but during the crossing the creature is treated as helpless. The monster is only ever allowed one saving throw to cross any particular body of running water.

Many magics can also be ended by running water… immersing the subject of a spell in running water or under heavy rain reduces the duration of a spell by 1 hour for every full round in the water.

Gives creedance to the whole drowning the witch thing... pity that many people just use ANY water rather than running water but what can ya do?

Salt
Salt purifies and preserves. In some places during certain times in human history, salt has literally been worth its weight in gold. Without salt, food spoils more quickly and sickness and death await. Against certain supernatural creatures, salt has two uses. First, it can form an effective barrier, and salt can also cause damage.

Salt barrier: As a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity, a inch or more width of a line of salt can be poured across a single side of a 5-foot square. Creatures susceptible to salt cannot move across this line using any innate means. This includes all modes of movement as well as spell-like and supernatural abilities. The salt line does not prevent the creature from attacking across the line, however, so salt users had best move back to avoid reach.
Also, while the creature cannot directly affect the line of salt, it can use a variety of means to break the line’s integrity. A gust of wind can blow the salt away or water can wash it away. Thus, in many instances, a salt barrier provides only temporary security.

Contact with salt: Salt susceptible monsters who are exposed to salt’s touch for one full round suffer 1d6 points of damage from the contact of a handful of salt. The touch of a lesser amount is painful to such undead that can acknowledge pain.

Silver
Creatures without DR /silver that are vulnerable to silver suffer +2 points of damage from silver weapons (including improvised weapons like a silver candlestick holder). A silver item (such as a silver piece) that is held against a vul-nerable creature’s skin for one full round burns the creature for 1d6 points of damage. This applies to creatures with DR /silver as well as those that are just vulnerable to silver. Shape changers tend to be susceptible to silver.

Sunlight/Sunrise
The sun’s light chases away the darkness and the creatures that live in it. It is the most common defense against supernatural evil, even if one must survive for several hours before it can be put into play. In many folk tales and fantasy stories, all sorts of creatures can’t stand the light of day.

Several creatures already have sunlight vulnerability or light weakness. These game effects are well-defined. Long duration magics are generally greatly weakened or dispelled by sun rise and sun set (each sunrise/sunset is held as an additional 12 hour period), lessening durations accordingly and sometimes drastically. Summoned Creatures cannot last beyond this threshold of time and return to their place of origin.

Thresholds
Before inviting that handsome stranger into the house, make sure he’s not a vampire or some other sort of supernatural beast. Everyone knows that vampire’s (or similar foes) been invited, they can enter at will.

Creatures with a full threshold weakness cannot enter a building unless invited – a partial threshold weakness will greatly weaken the creature if it forces entry. It must be a resident who invites the creature, but not relevant if the invitation is gained via deceit or magic. Of course, this weakness doesn’t prevent the creature from setting the building on fire or sending in minions. Spell casters or creatures that force entry lose a variable number of levels when entering uninvited to a dwelling, depending on the relative strength of the threshold while operating within the protected area - greatly weakening them and making them vulnerable - something that only the most desperate, angry or foolish creatures would risk.

Only personal dwellings are so protected – Inns, places of commerce or areas open to the public offer no protection. Religious sites will have a similar protection but one that is based on the faith of those within it.

Monsters susceptible to iron, salt, silver, and holy symbols can also be kept from entering a building if the appropriate item is affixed or poured near the various entrances. Hanging an iron horseshoe over the front door doesn’t just bring good luck. It also helps keep malicious fey out of the living room. One needs to take care that all potential entrances are so warded. The horseshoe over the front door might stop a goblin from entering through a window…. and a well stoked fire should keep them out of the Chimney.

Putting these Common Defenses into play
Since these are the commoner’s methods of defense against the supernatural, it stands to reason that the various methods are well-known. Knowledge of when these defenses are appropriate is generally a DC 10 or 15 check.

If the PCs suspect that they will be facing evil fey, then they may be well advised to stock up on iron weapons and to bring along a sack of iron nails and horsehoes to affix near building entrances. If its known that a monster sighted in the area is one that can also be held at bay by a boldly presented holy symbol, this can be critical to the groups safety , when in desperate situations, even the devout fighter can whip out a holy symbol and have a chance to daze the monster before it can gut the party’s wizard.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

(blink blink blink)

OK, I like a lot of what I have been reading, some I definitely plan on using, some of it I don't, but thanks for all the info Helaman, I am going to make some of it work for sure.

[LazarX]

Tark of the Shoanti wrote:

I just got done reading Blackdog, highly suggested reading, and I am toying with the idea of a low magic world. By this, I mean the world is much like the Ebberron setting in 3.5, where people who have actually character class levels are rare, VERY rare.

Eberron is actually a high magic world given that it has magical artisans, street lighting is common, a whole city of skyscrapers and has evolved several magical versions of modern mass transportation. And don't forget a man-made magical disaster that destroyed an entire kingdom in one stroke. It's pretty close to 20th century in equivalent magitech.

It's only a low magic world when you compare it to.... Forgotten Realms.

[Kthulhu]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

As a wizard-god, this is where I want to live.

As a wizard, in a low-magic world, you'd pretty much find yourself limited to the two spells per spell level you get automatically. Although this being a low-magic world, that might be reduced to one per spell level. After all, it's low magic...you don't exactly find scrolls lying around to add to your spellbook. Especially since he already stated that (other) wizards don't exist in this world, and adventurers in general are exceedingly rare.

In a low magic world, a sorcerer blows wizards out of the water.

[LazarX]

Kthulhu wrote:

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

As a wizard-god, this is where I want to live.

As a wizard, in a low-magic world, you'd pretty much find yourself limited to the two spells per spell level you get automatically. Although this being a low-magic world, that might be reduced to one per spell level. After all, it's low magic...you don't exactly find scrolls lying around to add to your spellbook. Especially since he already stated that (other) wizards don't exist in this world, and adventurers in general are exceedingly rare.

In a low magic world, a sorcerer blows wizards out of the water.

In a low magic world, wizards may not even exist, because magic hasn't spread far enough for anyone to actually teach it.

[HappyDaze]

Every time I read a thread where someone is taking a stab at making a "gritty low-magic" game out of Pathfinder, I just find myself shaking my head. There are a number of systems out there that are intended to do this sort of thing, but Pathfinder really isn't one of them. Sure, you can expend a lot of effort on the attempt, but it will still look like a square-peg-in-a-round-hole to me.

[Mr.Fishy]

OK low magic idea, Full caster as normalish, the wrinkle every spell requires a fort save DC 10+spell lvl[orignal, empowered fireball is still a DC 13] or the caster is fatigued.
Fagitued to exhausted, exhausted to staggered, staggered goes unconscious.

The duration is 8 hours for fatigue, 1 hour for exhausted, staggered is 1 round/spell level, unconscious is 1 round. Fatigue and exhausted require a rest period to recover, staggered recovers at a double rate for resting,[no action counts as two rounds].

If the caster is casting low level spells the DCs stay low and if he makes his saves he is unfazed by the strain of casting. Higher level spells carry a greater risk and meta magic becomes a more viable use for higher spell slots because the DC is based on the spell's unmodified level.

Weaker wizards, fewer high level spells without rewriting the whole system.

[Helaman]

Mr.Fishy wrote:

OK low magic idea, Full caster as normalish, the wrinkle every spell requires a fort save DC 10+spell lvl[orignal, empowered fireball is still a DC 13] or the caster is fatigued.

Fagitued to exhausted, exhausted to staggered, staggered goes unconscious.

The duration is 8 hours for fatigue, 1 hour for exhausted, staggered is 1 round/spell level, unconscious is 1 round. Fatigue and exhausted require a rest period to recover, staggered recovers at a double rate for resting,[no action counts as two rounds].

If the caster is casting low level spells the DCs stay low and if he makes his saves he is unfazed by the strain of casting. Higher level spells carry a greater risk and meta magic becomes a more viable use for higher spell slots because the DC is based on the spell's unmodified level.

Weaker wizards, fewer high level spells without rewriting the whole system.

Ooooooh - I like this... need to sit down and think about this at an hour other than 2am.

[Mr.Fishy]

Thank you, good luck conning a player into using it.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

HappyDaze wrote:

Every time I read a thread where someone is taking a stab at making a "gritty low-magic" game out of Pathfinder, I just find myself shaking my head. There are a number of systems out there that are intended to do this sort of thing, but Pathfinder really isn't one of them. Sure, you can expend a lot of effort on the attempt, but it will still look like a square-peg-in-a-round-hole to me.

Like I said, constructive criticisms only. You didn't really contribute anything but a negative view. I said it's a work in progress, and you know what, I like doing this sort of thing. I like taking the rules I like, and the ones my players like, and rework them into something new and exciting for us.

Well if you took the time to see the classes that would be allowed, that are caster, it's VERY easy to do a low magic world using Pathfinder. There are more then enough resources, from PF and 3rd party publisher do do it with little work. I am sorry you lack the vision for such things.

I mean hell, you must hate the fact that D&D had worlds like Dark Sun then. Despite there being magic, almost all magic items and artifacts and such were held by the sorcerer kings and adventurers were lucky if they got a metal weapon at all. That went against the norm for D&D and yet, it's an amazing setting that breaks the system as it were.
Because YOU don't like something, doesn't mean others won't. Just becaue YOU would rather use other systems for different styles of play, doesn't mean others have to.
All the guides for PF have examples and show how to make low magic worlds using them. Why would they put and make such examples if they themselves didn't think people would be interested?

[Tark of the Shoanti]

Mr.Fishy wrote:

OK low magic idea, Full caster as normalish, the wrinkle every spell requires a fort save DC 10+spell lvl[orignal, empowered fireball is still a DC 13] or the caster is fatigued.

Fagitued to exhausted, exhausted to staggered, staggered goes unconscious.

The duration is 8 hours for fatigue, 1 hour for exhausted, staggered is 1 round/spell level, unconscious is 1 round. Fatigue and exhausted require a rest period to recover, staggered recovers at a double rate for resting,[no action counts as two rounds].

If the caster is casting low level spells the DCs stay low and if he makes his saves he is unfazed by the strain of casting. Higher level spells carry a greater risk and meta magic becomes a more viable use for higher spell slots because the DC is based on the spell's unmodified level.

Weaker wizards, fewer high level spells without rewriting the whole system.

Ooooh I like and am gonna use this. I was thinking something along this line, but wasn't sure of the approach, thanks Mr Fishy.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

LazarX wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

As a wizard-god, this is where I want to live.

As a wizard, in a low-magic world, you'd pretty much find yourself limited to the two spells per spell level you get automatically. Although this being a low-magic world, that might be reduced to one per spell level. After all, it's low magic...you don't exactly find scrolls lying around to add to your spellbook. Especially since he already stated that (other) wizards don't exist in this world, and adventurers in general are exceedingly rare.

In a low magic world, a sorcerer blows wizards out of the water.

In a low magic world, wizards may not even exist, because magic hasn't spread far enough for anyone to actually teach it.

You are correct. Magic, in theory and practice, has yet to evolve to the point of having the systems and practice of Wizards. Like I said, the only caster classes are Witch, Sorcerer, Druid, and Oracle. The spell lists will be something I work on soon. Still toying with the aboreal halflings atm.

[Remco Sommeling]

If you want to go higher than E6 you might want to consider not allowing single class characters.

Even the most powerful magic-user will not be able to cast spells of higher than 5th level druid 10/witch 10 or an Oracle 10/sorcerer 10 will probably be the most powerful magic-user in history. I did add their caster levels together to determine spell effects though, so an oracle 5 sorcerer 6 that knows fireball will deal 10d6 damage.

Saves might be hard to make at some point because of lack of magic, it might be a good idea to have all saves good and bad boosted up to 1/2 level and add ability modifiers and feats to that. A 10th level character has +5 on all saves on all classes adjusted for ability scores not taking into account feats and possible magical items (if any). Might add +1 for good save categories instead, since everyone is multi-class saves remain better balanced that way.

For damage and healing purposes I found it is a good idea to treat damage equal to characters constitution score as non-lethal damage, these are the points keeping you alive when you are at negative hitpoints. That rule makes for fast recovery after relatively minor scrapes the party gets into. Also any healing spell in combat will heal an equal ammount of non-lethal damage, keeping it useful despite having less powerful healing.

With these rules you can go a long way in a low-magic campaign, might want to scrap some abilities here and there but overall it works quite well.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

Remco Sommeling wrote:

If you want to go higher than E6 you might want to consider not allowing single class characters.

Even the most powerful magic-user will not be able to cast spells of higher than 5th level druid 10/witch 10 or an Oracle 10/sorcerer 10 will probably be the most powerful magic-user in history. I did add their caster levels together to determine spell effects though, so an oracle 5 sorcerer 6 that knows fireball will deal 10d6 damage.

Saves might be hard to make at some point because of lack of magic, it might be a good idea to have all saves good and bad boosted up to 1/2 level and add ability modifiers and feats to that. A 10th level character has +5 on all saves on all classes adjusted for ability scores not taking into account feats and possible magical items (if any). Might add +1 for good save categories instead, since everyone is multi-class saves remain better balanced that way.

For damage and healing purposes I found it is a good idea to treat damage equal to characters constitution score as non-lethal damage, these are the points keeping you alive when you are at negative hitpoints. That rule makes for fast recovery after relatively minor scrapes the party gets into. Also any healing spell in combat will heal an equal ammount of non-lethal damage, keeping it useful despite having less powerful healing.

With these rules you can go a long way in a low-magic campaign, might want to scrap some abilities here and there but overall it works quite well.

Interesting, I am going to give this some serious thought.

[Doomed Hero]

I'm currently running a game in the Midnight setting, which is very low magic.

The way it handles the lack of bonuses usually gained by magic as you level is by giving each character a Heroic Path which is basically a small set of scalable minor powers based on certain heroic archetypes. (Ironborn and Painless make you tougher, Quickened and Beast make you faster, ect)

The neat thing about this is that it is independent of class (sort of like a character theme you pick at first level that stays with you no matter what class you pick).

Adapting something similar for your game wouldn't be too hard. Take a look at the Bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana and just hand them out. (or pick up a copy of the Midnight 2nd ed book. It's worth owning).

[HappyDaze]

Tark of the Shoanti wrote:

HappyDaze wrote:

Every time I read a thread where someone is taking a stab at making a "gritty low-magic" game out of Pathfinder, I just find myself shaking my head. There are a number of systems out there that are intended to do this sort of thing, but Pathfinder really isn't one of them. Sure, you can expend a lot of effort on the attempt, but it will still look like a square-peg-in-a-round-hole to me.

Like I said, constructive criticisms only. You didn't really contribute anything but a negative view. I said it's a work in progress, and you know what, I like doing this sort of thing. I like taking the rules I like, and the ones my players like, and rework them into something new and exciting for us.

Well if you took the time to see the classes that would be allowed, that are caster, it's VERY easy to do a low magic world using Pathfinder. There are more then enough resources, from PF and 3rd party publisher do do it with little work. I am sorry you lack the vision for such things.

I mean hell, you must hate the fact that D&D had worlds like Dark Sun then. Despite there being magic, almost all magic items and artifacts and such were held by the sorcerer kings and adventurers were lucky if they got a metal weapon at all. That went against the norm for D&D and yet, it's an amazing setting that breaks the system as it were.
Because YOU don't like something, doesn't mean others won't. Just becaue YOU would rather use other systems for different styles of play, doesn't mean others have to.
All the guides for PF have examples and show how to make low magic worlds using them. Why would they put and make such examples if they themselves didn't think people would be interested?

Buddy, get a grip. I said that I think it's a poor fit, but I didnt attack you. I didnt make "lack of vision" jabs. Constructive criticism can mean different things. To me you're trying to drive nails with a screwdriver. While it can be done, I'm suggesting that perhaps a different tool - one better suited to the task - might make things easier.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

Doomed Hero wrote:

I'm currently running a game in the Midnight setting, which is very low magic.

The way it handles the lack of bonuses usually gained by magic as you level is by giving each character a Heroic Path which is basically a small set of scalable minor powers based on certain heroic archetypes. (Ironborn and Painless make you tougher, Quickened and Beast make you faster, ect)

The neat thing about this is that it is independent of class (sort of like a character theme you pick at first level that stays with you no matter what class you pick).

Adapting something similar for your game wouldn't be too hard. Take a look at the Bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana and just hand them out. (or pick up a copy of the Midnight 2nd ed book. It's worth owning).

Oh yes, bloodlines!!! I almost forgot about those! I just got the 2nd ed of Midnight last week, haven't gotten around to reading it though, will make a priority.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

After reviewing Unearthed Arcana again, I almost forgot about the "generic" classes too. Maybe tweak them some, add in "talents" that allow a broader spectrum of ability to resemble more like one specific class or another.... hmmm the possibilities.

[bobs04]

I'm currently put a game together based on Greek Mythology. Will be very low magic. This thread was right on time. Thanks

[moon glum]

Tark of the Shoanti wrote:

At the moment, I am looking at allowing, for spell casters, Druids, Oracles, Sorcerers, and Witches only.

Who wrote Blackdog?

Note that allowing Druids, Oracles, Sorcerers, and Witches will create a high magic world.

What you need to do to make a real, low magic feel world is to change the spells characters have access to and the level at which they can access them. Also you need to change the way magic item creation works.

One simple thing you might do is to limit all spell casters so that they can only cast a number of spells per day (maximum, total) equal to to their primary ability modifier. So a sorcerer with a 20 charisma could cast a total of 5 spells a day. They are still also limited by the normal rules of the game, so that its still good to be a sorcerer since those 5 spells could be your 5 highest level spells, where a witch would be more limited.

You could also limit item creation so that the time to create items is increased to, say 1 day per 100 gp of value, and so that hard to find material components will often be required.

BTW, letting rangers cast spells doesn't matter much. Its the teleporting witches, and oracles raising the dead, and druids disguised as crows casting flame strike, wands of invisibility, wands of haste, etc. etc. that will make the world more high magic that the most high magic of fantasy novels.

[Helaman]

Something else as a wierd ass suggestion... no character can start as a spell casting class and must have a RP justification/mentor etc for gaining a level in a spell casting class.

People used to do this for 'Jedi' levels in Star Wars games.

[Steve Geddes]

One probably unpopular option would be to restrict the spells known of the spellcasting classes (like to half caster level, or something).

That would mean a level 8 wizard would know and cast spells as a core level 4 and a level 20 spellcaster as if they were a level 10 character.

I doubt many PCs are going to be interested in playing such a class - but that will help foster a low-magic feel, in my view. It's always jarred to me in 'low magic' settings when the PCs are often outside of the norm - hence the story being told actually involves lots of magic anyhow (it's why I dont really think purely restricting class choice is going to give you the feel you want - if your 4 PCs choose to play a sorceror, a druid, a witch and another sorceror then you're going to struggle for a low magic feel in the stories you tell, even if the world is set up such that these characters are extremely unusual).

Following some kind of power-restriction on casters as above at least means you can justify the occasional magic item around (introduced by you as the plot required) and allow magic using foes on occasion - although they'll be less deadly opponents than in a usual campaign, they will be unusual and provide fresh challenges outside of the PCs normal adventuring experience.

[HappyDaze]

Steve Geddes wrote:

One probably unpopular option would be to restrict the spells known of the spellcasting classes (like to half caster level, or something).

That would mean a level 8 wizard would know and cast spells as a core level 4 and a level 20 spellcaster as if they were a level 10 character.

I doubt many PCs are going to be interested in playing such a class - but that will help foster a low-magic feel, in my view. It's always jarred to me in 'low magic' settings when the PCs are often outside of the norm - hence the story being told actually involves lots of magic anyhow (it's why I dont really think purely restricting class choice is going to give you the feel you want - if your 4 PCs choose to play a sorceror, a druid, a witch and another sorceror then you're going to struggle for a low magic feel in the stories you tell, even if the world is set up such that these characters are extremely unusual).

Following some kind of power-restriction on casters as above at least means you can justify the occasional magic item around (introduced by you as the plot required) and allow magic using foes on occasion - although they'll be less deadly opponents than in a usual campaign, they will be unusual and provide fresh challenges outside of the PCs normal adventuring experience.

Better perhaps to simply restrict caster level to no greater than 1/2 character level. Now a smart player won't take more than 1/2 his levels in a caster class, but at least he can multiclass more easily since a Fighter 4/Sorcerer 4 is now able to do better than your suggested Sorcerer 8 (with effective spells known and per day as Sorcerer 4).

[Steve Geddes]

HappyDaze wrote:

Better perhaps to simply restrict caster level to no greater than 1/2 character level. Now a smart player won't take more than 1/2 his levels in a caster class, but at least he can multiclass more easily since a Fighter 4/Sorcerer 4 is now able to do better than your suggested Sorcerer 8 (with effective spells known and per day as Sorcerer 4).

I think that would be more balanced. In my view, in constructing a low-magic setting, it's important to unbalance the spellcasters and make them weaker. Otherwise, you end up with a 'low magic setting' in which the PCs are unusual in that they are more heavily magic-using than the norm - as a consequence, it doesnt feel low magic, since spellcasting will be such a common occurrence* in the stories you actually tell at the table.

I guess one of my aims in constructing low magic settings (which I'm a fan of) is to create meta-game incentives for the players to avoid magic (or penalties for choosing it). Walking around in a low magic world with a bunch of spellcasting PCs means you have to keep reminding yourself it's a low magic world - since your main protagonists are merrily casting spells just like in the high magic world (albeit with less magical loot).

*how many double letters should that have?)

[HappyDaze]

Steve Geddes wrote:

HappyDaze wrote:

Better perhaps to simply restrict caster level to no greater than 1/2 character level. Now a smart player won't take more than 1/2 his levels in a caster class, but at least he can multiclass more easily since a Fighter 4/Sorcerer 4 is now able to do better than your suggested Sorcerer 8 (with effective spells known and per day as Sorcerer 4).

I think that would be more balanced. In my view, in constructing a low-magic setting, it's important to unbalance the spellcasters and make them weaker. Otherwise, you end up with a 'low magic setting' in which the PCs are unusual in that they are more heavily magic-using than the norm - as a consequence, it doesnt feel low magic, since spellcasting will be such a common occurrence* in the stories you actually tell at the table.

I guess one of my aims in constructing low magic settings (which I'm a fan of) is to create meta-game incentives for the players to avoid magic (or penalties for choosing it). Walking around in a low magic world with a bunch of spellcasting PCs means you have to keep reminding yourself it's a low magic world - since your main protagonists are merrily casting spells just like in the high magic world (albeit with less magical loot).

*how many double letters should that have?)

Simply not being able to have your class level in a magic using game high enough to keep up with ECL should be enough. You put a harsher penalty in than that and your really making sure that the player that wants a magical character is progressively penalized more and more as he takes levels (by your system, a Wizard 20 is effectively a Commoner 10/Wizard 10 whereas mine allows Wizard 10/something-heroic-but-non-magic-using 10). At least as I'm suggesting, the character has his other class that he supplements with magic rather than dead levels.

[Steve Geddes]

HappyDaze wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

I guess one of my aims in constructing low magic settings (which I'm a fan of) is to create meta-game incentives for the players to avoid magic (or penalties for choosing it). Walking around in a low magic world with a bunch of spellcasting PCs means you have to keep reminding yourself it's a low magic world - since your main protagonists are merrily casting spells just like in the high magic world (albeit with less magical loot).

Simply not being able to have your class level in a magic using game high enough to keep up with ECL should be enough. You put a harsher penalty in than that and your really making sure that the player that wants a magical character is progressively penalized more and more as he takes levels (by your system, a Wizard 20 is effectively a Commoner 10/Wizard 10 whereas mine allows Wizard 10/something-heroic-but-non-magic-using 10). At least as I'm suggesting, the character has his other class that he supplements with magic rather than dead levels.

Yes. As I mentioned - I'd be hoping to persuade a PC not to choose a wizard, whilst still allowing myself the flexibility to use wizards as opponents if necessary.

[Ion Raven]

Something I'm doing for my own game is having all spells require some sort of material component. The character has to keep track of the components if they want to cast their spells. Higher level spells require rarer components which often can't be found in towns. Players reserve their high level spells for encounters where its worth spending the components, and even low level spells are costly if not used wisely and sparingly.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

Blackdog was written by K. V. Johansen, she's a great writer. (IMHO)

"I think that would be more balanced. In my view, in constructing a low-magic setting, it's important to unbalance the spell casters and make them weaker. Otherwise, you end up with a 'low magic setting' in which the PCs are unusual in that they are more heavily magic-using than the norm - as a consequence, it doesn't feel low magic, since spell casting will be such a common occurrence* in the stories you actually tell at the table."

Like I stated before, I am using the idea like Eberron has, very rare people actually possess character levels, and therefor casters are rare people.
I am working a fatigue rule in for casters, still toying with how and what I want it to be, and as well, looking into making spell casting a skill check, it was a variant rule in the Advanced Player's Guide from back in 3.0/5 era.

[Remco Sommeling]

Tark of the Shoanti wrote:

Blackdog was written by K. V. Johansen, she's a great writer. (IMHO)

"I think that would be more balanced. In my view, in constructing a low-magic setting, it's important to unbalance the spell casters and make them weaker. Otherwise, you end up with a 'low magic setting' in which the PCs are unusual in that they are more heavily magic-using than the norm - as a consequence, it doesn't feel low magic, since spell casting will be such a common occurrence* in the stories you actually tell at the table."

Like I stated before, I am using the idea like Eberron has, very rare people actually possess character levels, and therefor casters are rare people.
I am working a fatigue rule in for casters, still toying with how and what I want it to be, and as well, looking into making spell casting a skill check, it was a variant rule in the Advanced Player's Guide from back in 3.0/5 era.

Maybe work it like defensive casting checks, basing it on con might work but I dislike the idea of high con casters being common, usually it will be a DC 15 + 2*spell lvl check, this might be quite tough in a low magic campaign since the casting ability will not go up that fast. Allowing a bonus when casting as a full round action, or adding 1 round to the casting time seems appropriate, feats or additional components might alleviate the casting stress as well.

Casting might slow the game down a bit tough, since a caster might have to make multiple checks when casting dispel magic, 1 defensive casting, 2 fatigue check, 3 dispel check, 4 possible save for the target object.

My campaign wasn't exceedingly low magic, mostly just made it harder to use and less convenient, like said every character being multi-class advancing equally makes life hard on casters already. To compensate I had some cooperative magic rituals in place allowing casters to create more powerful spell effects, making covens and cults especially fearsome.

[bobs04]

Ion Raven I liked your idea of casters need components to cast there spells. There expensive and some are even hard to find. Will make the players think really hard before they start throwing out spell after spell. Thanks again folks for this thread.

[stringburka]

To limit casters, make them prestige classes that require a few ranks in spellcraft. Quick'n'easy. If you want to be magical from level one, you've got the trait that allows you to cast a cantrip.

[Black_Lantern]

Tark of the Shoanti wrote:

I just got done reading Blackdog, highly suggested reading, and I am toying with the idea of a low magic world. By this, I mean the world is much like the Ebberron setting in 3.5, where people who have actually character class levels are rare, VERY rare.

At times a level 2 or maybe 3 Oracle might wanted from town to town reading fortunes, trying to get by. Also, in the world, there are ancient, long dead times and civilizations, but they were no masters of lost arcane and divine secrets. They simply came and went.
And one major point as well, the gods inhabit the lands. By this I mean one goddess might look after a particular lake, while another might roam a whole mountain range, while another tends a simple spring in the wastes.

At the moment, I am looking at allowing, for spell casters, Druids, Oracles, Sorcerers, and Witches only. Clerics don't exist at this point in the evolution of the religious world. The Ranger will lose his casting ability to be replaced by Traps, or maybe something else, not 100% on this yet. Paladins are not there, the Cavalier will replace them. Magus is not there, as is the Gunfighter, Ninja,Samaria, Inquisitors, or Summoners as well.

All magic is tied to the earth, the world itself, and believed to come from the gods, arcane or divine.

As it stands, that's all I have toyed with so far for classes. Constructive comments will be much appreciated.

It's hard to work with your concept when you don't justify your limitations of classes with reason. Having a cavalier and not a cleric doesn't make any sense what so ever considering that religious leaders are more common than mounted warriors. Arguing that cavaliers came before clerics is absurd in any theocratic society. Considering that pathfinder is run by magic and deities. As for not allowing magi I don't understand that either. Considering that you're allowing sorcerers. It seems as if your game isn't really about role playing and rather about just limiting classes that are considered good. As for going low magic items you will need to scale bonuses according to level. If you don't you will find out individuals having a difficult time dealing with fights.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

It's hard to work with your concept when you don't justify your limitations of classes with reason. Having a cavalier and not a cleric doesn't make any sense what so ever considering that religious leaders are more common than mounted warriors. Arguing that cavaliers came before clerics is absurd in any theocratic society. Considering that pathfinder is run by magic and deities. As for not allowing magi I don't understand that either. Considering that you're allowing sorcerers. It seems as if your game isn't really about role playing and rather about just...

Well not all Cavaliers are religious first and foremost, and there is going to be changes made, this is just the rough outline at the moment. And I said because the world is not evolved enough for formal religious orders and why there is a decided lack of magic IE Wizards, and hybrids. And did I ever, EVER say this was a theocratic society? No I didn't. The gods are still new to the world, and there is no formalized or organized religion ANYWHERE in this world at this age.

There are many Orders for Cavaliers that do not have to focus on religion. They can simpy be wandering men who fight for what they see as right, or hores riders geared towards combat, not every Cavalier is tied directly to a religion. Go read the orders and see. And I am not in any way limiting classes considered "good". All classes are good, you just don't like the way it is shaping up and don't worry, you're not in the game.
And if you read all I had posted, you would see that I said I was looking to implement the scaling bonus to attack rolls and to Ac from the 4th Ed Dark Sun game.

When looking at a world that hasn't evolved in society enough to support classes like Wizards, and Clerics, and hybrid classes, you cannot have those classes. The gods are still new to the world, they are tied to the land itself, and the ability to wield arcane and divine powers are still new to people. I am using the Eberron take on the populous, as in very rarely do people venture more then a day from home, and adventurers are EXTREMELY rare, not like in the general settings, people are weary about traveling far from home.
Cities are maybe 1000-2000 people max, and so far I only have 2 such places in the world.

[Steve Geddes]

Tark of the Shoanti wrote:

And if you read all I had posted, you would see that I said I was looking to implement the scaling bonus to attack rolls and to Ac from the 4th Ed Dark Sun game.

I didnt notice this. I'd be interested to see how you end up working this through. I struggled in implementing an inherent bonuses scheme for pathfinder, although I tried to work it out using additional stat gains in the interests of simplicity.

Are you thinking a PC-only +1/x per level bonus to attacks, AC and saves or something?

[Brambleman]

Admittedly I am not fammilar with the setting. But Are we thinking of the same Ebberon? I recall Ebberon had elemental powered trains, which seems very travel inclined. And the illustrations i found have had more magic crammed into a single frame than I saw in all the core rules illustrations together.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

Brambleman wrote:

Admittedly I am not fammilar with the setting. But Are we thinking of the same Ebberon? I recall Ebberon had elemental powered trains, which seems very travel inclined. And the illustrations i found have had more magic crammed into a single frame than I saw in all the core rules illustrations together.

What I am pulling from Eberron is the fact that people who possess class levels, PC class levels, are rare, VERY rare.

98% of the population has NPC class levels, and only a few at that. High fantasy creatures are nonexistent, as well as most magical created or enhanced monsters.

Steve Geddes wrote:

I didnt notice this. I'd be interested to see how you end up working this through. I struggled in implementing an inherent bonuses scheme for pathfinder, although I tried to work it out using additional stat gains in the interests of simplicity.

Are you thinking a PC-only +1/x per level bonus to attacks, AC and saves or something? [/QUOTE="Steve Geddes"]

The enhancement bonus will look a lot like this:
Level Bonus to Hit Bonus to AC
1 0 0
2 1 0
3 1 0
4 1 1
5 1 1
6 1 1
7 2 1
8 2 1
9 2 2
10 2 2

But like I have said before, a lot of this is still up in the air and I am working it through.

[Helaman]

stringburka wrote:

To limit casters, make them prestige classes that require a few ranks in spellcraft. Quick'n'easy. If you want to be magical from level one, you've got the trait that allows you to cast a cantrip.

Derailing slightly to talk directly to you, here is a favourite house feat of mine.

Magical Training
This feat is required before any levels in spell casting classes can be gained and represents aptitude or an apprenticeship. It can [b]only[b] be bought at first level. The character chooses one of the caster classes as a background. They can then learn to cast a cantrip/orision once a day as a level 1 caster of the chosen spell casting class.

This bonus is lost once they take their first level of a casting class, with the normal number of cantrips being in place. Paladins and Rangers use clerical and druidic cantrip/orision respectively, except for Paladins and Rangers, who gain the ability to use cantrips/orisions as if they were level 1 full casters even after becoming 5th level.

This feat must be selected for each casting class the player wants to learn, though the access to Cantrip/Orison ability is only granted for one class if selected multiple times without a casting class already being taken. Bards, Rangers and Paladins not taking this feat will not have the option to learn spells later.

Its a feat tax but one that gives some small benefit upfront for those hoping to multi-class. Very expensive for spell casters with more than one spell casting class.

[stringburka]

I don't see why cavaliers shouldn't exist without clerics. Cavaliers existed IRL, and clerics (as in the "cures wounds, blasts undead and chit-chats with actual gods) have never existed.

You can have religous leaders without having clerics. Almost all religious leaders in my games are Experts.

[cranewings]

stringburka wrote:

I don't see why cavaliers shouldn't exist without clerics. Cavaliers existed IRL, and clerics (as in the "cures wounds, blasts undead and chit-chats with actual gods) have never existed.

You can have religous leaders without having clerics. Almost all religious leaders in my games are Experts.

I like where you are going with this. In my game, most of them are rogues (;

[Black_Lantern]

Tark of the Shoanti wrote:

It's hard to work with your concept when you don't justify your limitations of classes with reason. Having a cavalier and not a cleric doesn't make any sense what so ever considering that religious leaders are more common than mounted warriors. Arguing that cavaliers came before clerics is absurd in any theocratic society. Considering that pathfinder is run by magic and deities. As for not allowing magi I don't understand that either. Considering that you're allowing sorcerers. It seems as if your game isn't really about role playing and rather about just...

Well not all Cavaliers are religious first and foremost, and there is going to be changes made, this is just the rough outline at the moment. And I said because the world is not evolved enough for formal religious orders and why there is a decided lack of magic IE Wizards, and hybrids. And did I ever, EVER say this was a theocratic society? No I didn't. The gods are still new to the world, and there is no formalized or organized religion ANYWHERE in this world at this age.

There are many Orders for Cavaliers that do not have to focus on religion. They can simpy be wandering men who fight for what they see as right, or hores riders geared towards combat, not every Cavalier is tied directly to a religion. Go read the orders and see. And I am not in any way limiting classes considered "good". All classes are good, you just don't like the way it is shaping up and don't worry, you're not in the game.
And if you read all I had posted, you would see that I said I was looking to implement the scaling bonus to attack rolls and to Ac from the 4th Ed Dark Sun game.

When looking at a world that hasn't evolved in society enough to support classes like Wizards, and Clerics, and hybrid classes, you cannot have those classes. The gods are still new to the world, they are tied to the land itself, and the ability to wield arcane and divine powers are still new to people. I am using the Eberron take on the populous, as in very rarely do people...

No not all classes are good. Nearly everyone can agree that there are some classes that are far more useful than others. There is a reason that I said it's hard to work with your concept considering how vague you were. If we were to make comparasions with this earth and the one you plan on running we could come up with the conclusion that religion has played an influence on life for thousands of years. However orders of horsemen aren't all the preveilant considering various documentation of the past two milena. I don't have enough time to read all of your posts and others to evaluate what you have planned. I just gave my input on what I thought about your original post. As for justifying oracles I don't understand either considering that superstition is a foundation of religion. Making religious faiths far more noticable.

[Black_Lantern]

stringburka wrote:

I don't see why cavaliers shouldn't exist without clerics. Cavaliers existed IRL, and clerics (as in the "cures wounds, blasts undead and chit-chats with actual gods) have never existed.

You can have religous leaders without having clerics. Almost all religious leaders in my games are Experts.

We're not talking about the mechanics we're talking about the principales behind the classes.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

Black_Lantern wrote:

stringburka wrote:

I don't see why cavaliers shouldn't exist without clerics. Cavaliers existed IRL, and clerics (as in the "cures wounds, blasts undead and chit-chats with actual gods) have never existed.

You can have religous leaders without having clerics. Almost all religious leaders in my games are Experts.

We're not talking about the mechanics we're talking about the principales behind the classes.

OK, Cavaliers are NOT ALL BASED ON RELIGION!!!! Are you THAT stupid? The Order of the Star, is the only Order based on religion.

And I have given the reasons why the classes that have access to magic are limited. It's not some misty, poorly worded phrase. The world is still young, the ability to wield magic is still new, and that is why there aren't classes that are based off of tradition, study, and foundation.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

OK, people like Black_Lantern, if you cannot read ALL of the posts pertaining to the thread, as I originally stated rather clearly, that it is a work in progress. I have stated time and time again why some classes are there and others not. I have not yet made a full decision on what classes will be allowed and what ones won't.
As I have said time and time again, I am working on races, and nationalities and I am looking for CONSTRUCTIVE feedback. Just simply saying well if there's this then there has to be that is NOT constructive criticism.
But, because some people just seem to be unable to fully read, I am going to break things down for the dim and slow whited.

1. the world is young. there are no past ages of glory, high magic, and vast empires. This being said, classes that are based on traditions and foundations that build as empires and cultures form, like Clerics, Wizards, and all the hybrid classes, they have yet to be made. Classes like Oracles and Druids have never been based on theocracy and traditions, but on pure and simple connection to the divine. They don't have dogma. Dogma comes from ages and formula. The world is still too young for such things.
Witches and sorcerers also fall under this because they don't study and read books and do rituals and have a dogmatic belief in their powers, they simply manifest them.

2. the gods are young, they are tied to the earth. there are many many gods scattered across the lands, tied to a mountain range, a river, a vast forest, or a plain. There is no do they or don't they exist thing going on, stop by a small dedicated area, make an offering, and more then likely the god/ddess will appear. Their powers are strong in their area, but grow weaker the farther they go from their "home" area.

3. arcane magics are powerful, but also dangerous. casting comes at a cost, what I have yet to finally decide on. casting will be skill based more then likely, with a fatigue check as well for some spells that are considered mid-high powered.

This is all that I am working on so far as far as classes go, as I have said time and time again, because I am working on races, but thought I would like to see what people who have done similar to this would have to say. If you're not helping move the discussion forward, just keep your mouth shut and move along if you don't like the way things are shaping in the game I am running, you have nothing to worry about, YOU'RE not playing in it.

[Tamago]

Mr.Fishy wrote:

OK low magic idea, Full caster as normalish, the wrinkle every spell requires a fort save DC 10+spell lvl[orignal, empowered fireball is still a DC 13] or the caster is fatigued.

Fagitued to exhausted, exhausted to staggered, staggered goes unconscious.

The duration is 8 hours for fatigue, 1 hour for exhausted, staggered is 1 round/spell level, unconscious is 1 round. Fatigue and exhausted require a rest period to recover, staggered recovers at a double rate for resting,[no action counts as two rounds].

You might want to make this a Will save, rather than a Fortitude save. Otherwise, you are liable to have spellcasters pumping their Constitution to get better saves. If that's what you are going for, great! Otherwise, it might seem strange that all of your casters have a 16 CON and Great Fortitude because it lets them cast more spells. ;-)