Dervish Dancers Battle Dance Question

[Akumamajin]

Hello there,

I am a little confused how the battle dance really works. As I understand it, it works just as the bards normal performance sans that it is activated as a move action and only grants the Dervish Dancer the bonus. Even if not explicitly stated, I take that you can dance just as often or long as you could perform.

Now, what is with countersong, fascinate and all this, does the Dervish Dancer get this, on top of the Battle Dance? Is this paid from the same pool of performances like the dance? Can he dance himself to greatness and courage and later sing others to competence?

I envisioned the DD as a kind of egoistic bard who keeps his bonuses to himself :P

Thanks in advance

[Nemitri]

No he doesn't, he gets a replacement for those abilities, like having a keen-like-enhancement the ability to do a wonder woman spin and heal his/herself tho XD.

[Akumamajin]

Nemitri wrote:

No he doesn't, he gets a replacement for those abilities, like having a keen-like-enhancement the ability to do a wonder woman spin and heal his/herself tho XD.

Thanks for replying, but this is the core of my problem. Abilities like 'Razor Kiss' say that they replace 'Suggestion' ... but there is no such note regarding the Battle Dance ability. Is tells you, that you can use things like 'inspire courage' to buff yourself but no one other ... but abilities like countersong or fascinate are not noted. Has this been erataed or clarified upon? Normaly I would just handwave the whole thing I say "its obvious that they intended to let Battle Dance replace the normal perform", but my player who plays one is really nitpiking on this and insist that he can countersong and fascinate with his dance ... oh and inspire competence, his isn't mentioned as well.

So a few other opinions on that matter would be nice :)

[BinkyBo]

They don't get countersong and fascinate, battle dance replaces normal bardic performance, this is what they get performance-wise:

from PRD:
Dervish dancers gain the inspire courage, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics bardic performance types as battle dances, but these only provide benefit to the dervish dancer himself.

Rain of Blows (Su): At 6th level, a dervish dancer can use his battle dance to speed up his attacks. When making a full attack action, he may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding, as though under the effects of a haste spell. He also gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and on Reflex saves. At 9th level, and every three bard levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. These bonuses do not stack with the haste spell. This ability replaces suggestion and mass suggestion.

Razor's Kiss (Su): At 8th level, a dervish dancer can use his battle dance to improve his weapons' critical range. All attacks he makes with manufactured weapons are treated as though he had the Improved Critical feat. Natural weapons and spells are not affected. This ability replaces dirge of doom.

Leaf on the Wind (Su): At 14th level, a dervish dancer can use his battle dance to evade attacks with unearthly grace and to shake off the effects of his wounds. Unlike other battle dances, leaf on the wind requires a standard action each round to start or maintain the performance. Each round it is maintained, including the first, the dervish dancer gains a +6 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. If wounded, he heals 1 hit point of damage per bard level. This ability replaces frightening performance.

[Glendwyr]

I'm having problems understanding the same thing, actually, explicitly because battle dance does not say it replaces bardic performance.

From a literal reading, it would seem like a dervish dancer gets bardic performance (since it isn't replaced) but can only use countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics (since the other performances are replaced by battle dance abilities). Additionally, the dervish dancer also has battle dance with all that entails.

I'd be okay with having battle dance just replace bardic performance, but that's not what it says and I'm not sure that's what it is intended to say, either, though it may well be.

[Martiln]

So are Rain of Blows and Razor's Kiss Battle Dances as well, or do you gain the benefits of them when using the Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, or Inspire Heroics battle dances?

[neodreamweaver]

bump would like to know for that last question

[Jadebird]

In My opinion...which may be horribly wrong as I am not the game/class designer. It seems that the Dervish Dancer still gets Bardic Performance due to the fact that at no point in time does it state " This ability REPLACES The normal Bardic performance. In that line of thinking it means you can either be the "I help every one guy", or the gypsy swords woman.

This gives the Dervish the same amount of group buffing ability, while allowing the char to have a foundation upon which to add the later skills. If you don't get to have the standard bardic performances...then why bother, seeing as a normal bard reading poems during a combat gives his allies AND himself bonuses...where the DD only gives himself the bonus...which means you might as well be playing a fighter, a barbar, or better still a Magus.

In regards to wither or not the abilities stack...I want to beleive they all do. For instance, if you go in to a battle dance, of inspire courage at level 8, and all the abilities stack that means your bonus are...

Note( These values are for if your dervish dancer doesn't get the x2 bonus like the dawnflower)
Inspire courage = +2atk, +2dam, +2saves against charm/fear
Rain of blows = +1atk, +1AC, +1ref, Extra attack during full round
Razors kiss = Improved Crit with everything.
Fleet = 45 Move speed

And while that may seem a little cheesy...a none human with eight levels in Standard fighter, can use his extra 4 feats/class skills too...

Armor training = Move full speed in Fullplate armor, reduced armcheck.
Weapon Training = +1 on attack and damage rolls
Bravery = +2 Wil against fear.
Four more feats = More damage (weapon focus, weapon spec, power attack), OR More ac ( Dodge, Combat Expertise and so on)

In most cases, should the DD and fighter meet, and battle, the fighter will pump out more damage then the Dervish, even with one fewer attacks, and have a higher ac as well...so its not " Oh lord that belly dancer with a sword is a better fighter then my...fighter!"

I can kinda see why some might think that it these all shouldn't stack due to Leaf on the wind...But it states its a standard action to start and maintain..meaning your either hodging for all your worth and trying to heal, or your not. And really by level 14, most, if not all classes have some wtf abilities. A 14th level fighter can literally up, vital strike something on the charge for x3(Before crit)damage, crit on a roll of 16 and up, and then stagger, and exhaust, it with the crit, and have a +12 to confirm. and don't even get me started on a standard rogue at that level...

So all in all I'd have to say that yes...they keep the bardic performance abilities, save where it says such and such ability replaces said ability, AND that the dance abilities all stack. Since even though at level 14 and up your a little cheese tastic because of Dance of fury, and Leaf on the wind...but is the DD any more cheesy then a Straight Pally at that level?

[neodreamweaver]

Bump,

Still really want to know for that last question

[Jon Otaguro 428]

I think it's fairly obvious based on the way leaf of the wind is described, that rain of blows, razors kiss and leaf of the wind are battle dances.