I proposed an idea for synergy between another player and myself, you disarm and I'll use Mage hand to take his weapon.
The group knows it's only a 5 lb limit and it doesn't work on magic, but they are saying it's overpowered. Ideas are being tossed around about giving a reflex save to avoid having a fallen weapon taken since they would want the opportunity to try and step on it.
Am I the only one that thinks this is absurd. Mage Hand is a useful spell, but overpowered? The party says that a disarmed weapon is also not unattended since it is at the feet of an opponent, hmm...
What do you guys think? Is my use of this spell beyond RAW? Am I taking advantage?
Or are they seeing something I'm not? I just can't take the reasoning of, "I wouldn't want it to happen go me" as an excuse to not use this ability.
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I proposed an idea for synergy between another player and myself, you disarm and I'll use Mage hand to take his weapon.
The group knows it's only a 5 lb limit and it doesn't work on magic, but they are saying it's overpowered. Ideas are being tossed around about giving a reflex save to avoid having a fallen weapon taken since they would want the opportunity to try and step on it.
Am I the only one that thinks this is absurd. Mage Hand is a useful spell, but overpowered? The party says that a disarmed weapon is also not unattended since it is at the feet of an opponent, hmm...
What do you guys think? Is my use of this spell beyond RAW? Am I taking advantage?
Or are they seeing something I'm not? I just can't take the reasoning of, "I wouldn't want it to happen go me" as an excuse to not use this ability.
Your use sounds perfectly reasonable so long as the limits of the spell are observed. Just spitballing here, but I think you can affect magic items with Mage Hand, but the item gets a save or something like that, since it is now an unattended object. Of course, I'm not certain what the save would be in such a situation...
Yeah they've got no rule to back that up your well within the rules to do that. dropped items are unattended even ones at your feet.
And here's your ammunition ;)
final entry of disarm
"If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped."
They don't get Ref save to stop you doing that automatically so there no reason why you can't do the same thing through mage hand.
The only possible way I could see for a creature to stop this happening would be to drop prone to cover the weapon, of course doing that in front of a melee character is no so smart.
so yeah your all good to go.
I think they're missing the point this is still a standard action to perform meaning your doing this instead of casting say a fireball.
I'm playing a 1st level magus, so they are probably worried I will be able to do too much.
However, if I'm casting Mage hand I'm not casting color spray.
Thanks for the ammo. I'm really curious to hear some more thoughts.
This is not the first time I've seen a post where someone in a group discourages teamwork/creativity just because it seems "unfair" to the target of the effect. I feel that creativity should be rewarded. You thought of something cool that still follows the rules, but someone has to poop on your fun.
What if your teammate has Greater Disarm? It moves the weapon away from their square, and they wouldn't be able to attempt to stop that from happening. So, why then should the Mage Hand spell be any different if you're spending an extra action to do it?
Also, look at the net. It's better than a lot of disabling spells in most cases, and is super easy to throw over an appropriately sized target. Sure, you have to waste a feat in order to use it, but the Fighter in my party uses one ALL the time. It can seriously end fights before they begin. At the very least, the enemy has to waste a turn trying to get rid of it. Try out a net and see how your group reacts. They'd probably prefer your disarm/mage hand maneuver over that one. =)
Stuff
I had the rules for Disarm clarified for me in another thread.
The way Disarm works, is that if you're disarmed the weapon lands at your feet (unless you did the disarm unarmed or used the greater feat).
When the weapon is at your feet, anyone adjacent to that square can reach in and pickup the weapon, provoking an AoO.
So essentially, I could Disarm your character with a standard action and then immediately pickup your weapon with a move action in the same round. Or have someone else do it.
Now that you know how Disarm (apparently) works, it's obvious that the combination of Disarm and Mage Hand isn't overpowered at all.
My personal opinion was that it is quite powerful, but everyone in the thread disagreed. Maybe it's more powerful in PFS since most encounters are against humanoids. I currently don't have a character who uses it a lot, so I don't know. The common argument is "always carry a backup weapon", however most NPCs do not and it would trivialize most encounters imo.
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I proposed an idea for synergy between another player and myself, you disarm and I'll use Mage hand to take his weapon.
Yes, it's fine. My 8-year-old came up with the same idea a few years ago, although in her case she was using grease to do the disarming. Given the opportunity cost of the actions not taken, it isn't overpowered.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Your problem there is the action economy. I would require a standard action to pick up the weapon you disarmed whether it's with your arms or a Mage Hand. If you simply want to kick it out of the square, that I would allow with a move.
So essentially, I could Disarm your character with a standard action and then immediately pickup your weapon with a move action in the same round. Or have someone else do it.
A somewhat reasonable house rule, I suppose. Because we all know that disarm guys are soooo overpowered. ;)
Alternatively, if you were saying that in PFS, I'd report you.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Report away... Judging PFS tables is something I do as a volounteer service, not a livelihood. So if you're expecting me to cringe in fear, you're going to be disappointed. I know it's popular in America to treat those who provide a service like dirt, but I'm used to it.Your problem there is the action economy. I would require a standard action to pick up the weapon you disarmed whether it's with your arms or a Mage Hand. If you simply want to kick it out of the square, that I would allow with a move.
So essentially, I could Disarm your character with a standard action and then immediately pickup your weapon with a move action in the same round. Or have someone else do it.
A somewhat reasonable house rule, I suppose. Because we all know that disarm guys are soooo overpowered. ;)
Alternatively, if you were saying that in PFS, I'd report you.
Your response startled me, so I went back and re-read my post. Sounds a lot more confrontational than I intended.
Majorly sorry, buddy. I'm pretty bad about that kind of thing, I'm afraid. :(
EDIT: Come to think of it, I also have kind of a sore spot regarding a GM making stuff up to divert my character away from tactical maneuvers and such. Perhaps some of that was bleeding through into my post. In any case, again, my apologies.
This is why characters and foes should have backup weapons! :)
So true. Clubs and slings are your friend. Light, benefit from strength, can be 2-handed, and thrown.
Let's not forget that mage hand is really only useful against one-handed medium sized weapons and lighter. Most of the 2-handers are too heavy for mage-hand.
The way I would rule it is based on precedence.
Taking a weapon from an adjacent square provokes an AAO, so I would give the disarmed character an AAO against the weapon to keep it from moving more than 5 feet away from him.
It is a compromise between the reflex save, it gives the functional action of stepping on the weapon with his boot, and if someone is adjacent to him as he makes his AAO unarmed, that person gets his own AAO. (As unarmed strikes without feats provoke AAO.)
At first glance this seems fairly balanced.
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The way I would rule it is based on precedence.
Taking a weapon from an adjacent square provokes an AAO, so I would give the disarmed character an AAO against the weapon to keep it from moving more than 5 feet away from him.
It is a compromise between the reflex save, it gives the functional action of stepping on the weapon with his boot, and if someone is adjacent to him as he makes his AAO unarmed, that person gets his own AAO. (As unarmed strikes without feats provoke AAO.)
At first glance this seems fairly balanced.
Probably less well balanced on second glance if you're talking about precedence, since you're allowing someone to use an AoO for something other than actually making an AoO. That's a pretty big can of worms to be opening. Next you start thinking about why you can't use your AoO to do other stuff too - almost like a 'not-quite-but-sort-of' extra immediate action... then the guys with Combat Reflexes start to wonder if they can do lots of little almost-immediate-actions... or even string them together into one big action...
AoO are weird things anyway, when you start to think about them. For example - you can't just blow your AoO on a helpless guy lying next to you, even though he couldn't be more open and defenseless, because just lying there isn't provoking.
Back to the question at hand - stooping to pick up a disarmed weapon provokes, because you leave yourself open to attack. Someone casting mage hand from a distance, or defensively, doesn't provoke in the same way.
Also, you can't use unarmed attacks for AoO, unless you've got the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat (or similar ability) - so you couldn't kick a guy stooping to pick up the sword he just disarmed from your hand anyway, so why should you be allowed to step on it as an AoO?