I'm working right now on the concept of building some archetypes for the sorcerer and wizard that switch their spell list for the cleric spell list. The spells would still count as arcane spells (and all the stuff that comes with that) and bloodlines/specializations would remain the same.
I'm certain that this will make classes that are weaker than both the original base classes and the similar divine classes (oracle/cleric), but how much? What would be needed to fill those gaps created to bring them back up into similar power with their originals?
Something to consider is that the wizard/sorcerer are -defenseless- in terms of AC. This is compensated with spells like mage armor, shield, and later blur, blink, displacement, etc. The wizard spell list has all sorts of ways for the caster to avoid death, and nearly all of them are missing from the cleric list. It's not a huge deal, since clerics can rely on a decent AC thanks to armor proficiencies.
The wiz/sorc will be greatly weakened, as the classes were designed around their spell lists. Offensive magic is rare and dull on the cleric list, particularly at lower levels. You'll need to find ways of compensating for this if you want an archetype that's worth playing.
I'm thinking about giving them ASF reductions. I'd either just give them light armor casting like the bard or magus or I'd just give them a hard coded X% reduction to ASF.
I agree though, with the weaker spell list combined with weaker class features, they need something.
Light armor simply isn't enough. All of the base classes have a sort of "defense assumption." Characters stuck in light armor have reasons to focus on Dexterity (rogue, ranger) or are given other abilities to make up for their lack of AC (monk, barbarian). Even the bard, our light armor caster, has access to the defensive arcane magics (blur, mirror image). Defensive spells are a very integral part of arcane magic, and one of the largest divides between the two types.
So how do you think the oracle survives? Does medium armor (+2 AC between breastplate and chain shirt, only +1 if dexterity is maximized) really make that big a difference?
With light armor casting, the divine-list sorcerer/wizard is a 2 points of AC lower than the oracle/cleric. With a 20% ASF reduction (the unmodified ASF for a chain shirt), mithral breastplates are on the table for a feat.
Also, there will likely be some sort of additional class feature to boost them. A specialist option for the wizard (spontaneous conversion maybe?) and new bloodline arcana for the sorcerer.
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Maybe I'm missing your point (divine list = armor?), but what about the (3.5) Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana)?
I believe of the top of my head:
Gets Light Armor prof and no ASF for it, (possibly shields as well?)
A single one handed Martial Weapon Prof. of choice.
Gets 3/4 BaB
Trades a few skills out
Trades Will for Fort
Loses 1 spell per level and 1 spell known per level.
Collect the cure/raise/restore/inflict/remove spells into an arcane school, file off the divine from the rest of the spells so they fall under the existing schools. Wizard school powers should include free reach metamagic for that school x/day, free empowers and occasional maximizes as well. Don't think anything else is needed.
Witch?
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Just curious, but what would be the point of even having the Cleric class, then?
Witch already gets a lot of Cleric spells (as Arcane), and kind of does what I think you are wanting anyway. Bard does the same thing. There isn't a single thing that is Cleric only as it is. I mean why not just drop divine casters and open up all spells to the Wizard/Sorcerer?
Becket, you are getting close to what I want and sort of how I expect the divine list sorcerer would play. And a Battle Sorcerer option would definitely be among the things I'm intending to include eventually.
However, what I was really wanting with this class is to put the divine spell list in non-divine hands. For the divine-list wizard, I'm wanting something of the flavor of the 3.5 Tome of Horrors Archivist. Rather than building on the chassis of a cleric and switching the casting stat and lowering the BAB/HD, I thought it might be easier to start with the wizard and switch the spell list.
With the divine-list sorcerer, I was planning to limit it to the various outsider bloodlines. Basically, instead of your outsider blood giving you physical traits and some SLAs, but otherwise giving you the same spells as a wizard, you get a semi-divine connection. So your spells are still arcane (since they aren't directly granted by a deific power), but they come from the divine list.
My problem was that I knew the cleric list to be weaker than the wiz/sorc list. My questions were sort of, "How much weaker? And what do you need to boost the archetype back up to similar power with the base wizard/sorcerer?"
My first thought was to give armored casting for these archetypes, partially to emulate the divine casters, and partially to complement the spells that come in the cleric list. I wasn't sure if I wanted to just go with the "no ASF when wearing light armor" like the bard and magus get, or if I wanted to be slightly different and give them just a reduction in ASF.
I sort of liked the reduction in ASF (potentially one that progressed with levels) because it was different and allowed the divine-list arcane caster to choose how to allocate those. Did he want to go with low ASF armor and a shield? Or a slightly higher ASF armor, and no shield? Rather than mithral just bumping down things a whole effective armor level, mithral's reduction of ASF becomes interesting.
I will probably work on adding some divine damage options (using the guidelines presented in Mastering Magic in Ultimate Magic as well as lots of eyeballing and feedback from here and my gaming group) to bring a little parity to the lists, but still trying to keep things feeling like they belong on the cleric list.
You do bring up a good point though that I had not considered (partially because this is still in very much the concept phase). I had not considered dropping spells known and/or spells per day to bring in other features. I had planned to keep things as similar as possible (hoping to keep it to an archetype write-up over the more extensive alternate class write-up).
Thank you both for the feedback and I would definitely appreciate anything else that anyone has to offer.
EDIT: As to why keep the cleric at all, because it's still an option. I basically want to introduce options that allow players who want to to break away from the nuclear party. My group often will run games where the concepts are "Let's all play sorcerers!" or "So we are all from the same barbarian tribe". I'm in the process of trying to create archetypes that blur all sorts of lines between the classes. I want someone who really wanted to play a cleric/oracle still be allowed to play something mechanically similar to what he wanted without having to break the story that the GM/group wanted to create.
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This is just my opinion, but I think that the Cleric is a much better NPC class than it is a PC class. It mostly functions to let other players have fun and be good at things rather than being an actual player-member itself. PF very much encourages this.
Many of the Cleric spells are already on the Wizard list, (at lower levels), or the Wizard already has better, or more open options to do the same thing. And as has been mentioned, various other Arcane classes already get the "divine" spells, and generally do them better than the Cleric.
I'm still really not seeing the point of what your wanting to do, except to not have someone play "the Cleric"? I don't mean that sarcastically, I'm confussed.
Yes, for the most part, (there are exceptions, but rare), Cleric Spells are 1 - 3 Spell Levels weaker than basically any other classes spells. Main casters, I mean. Clerics get <a quintessential Cleri divine wrath spell afer anyone else. . .> Flame Strike as 5th, while Druids get it as a 4th level, and Wizards get the better Fireball as 3rd. Wizards get Haste as 3rd, while nothing up to the 6th level Mass stat spells really even compares for a party buff. And Wizards get them all while Clerics only get 4 (Str, Con, Wis, & Cha). Scorching Ray (2nd) vs Searing Light (3rd). Fly (3rd) vs Air Walk (4th). Shield of Faith (1st)<Deflection bonus is very common and nearly useless after a level or two> vs Shield <+4 Shield Bonus without taking up a slot AND also works against Incorporial AND blocks Magic Missile for free AND stacks with nearly anything else worth having> (1st)
I'm also not sure, honestly, if such a thing is all that worth it. Many of the Cleric spells are extremely situational, verses Arcane which seem to be much more useful in multiple situations. It might be better to simply rely on a Sorcerer getting a few scrolls/wands and Use Magic Device them (fairly easily) than drop in power level. Every Cure/Restore they cast means they are not doing their normal job and are going to be needing those spells more often, further draining their power.
As for the resurections, Wizards can already do things like that via wish/limited wish, not to mention a few other classes here and there. It's usually better to just pay someone else to do it though, in my opinion.
"Useless" or not, my players like playing that type of character. I myself really like playing that sort of character. Plenty of people like playing buff casters.
So, regardless of if the class isn't particularly optimal, it's a niche that players like to fill. I just want to make sure that if someone wants to fill that role without having the stigma of being a divine emissary or a witch, they can do so.
I guess I don't understand your objection to doing this. I don't want to remove the cleric/oracle from the game. I want those to still be options. I just don't want those to be the only options to play those spell lists. I basically want to figure out how to make it so that a player who wants to select this option isn't completely gimped in choosing to do so.
My question, I guess, isn't "do you think this is a good or useful idea for your games?" but rather "how do I make this idea, which is useful in my games, a workable idea?"
"Useless" or not, my players like playing that type of character. I myself really like playing that sort of character. Plenty of people like playing buff casters.
So, regardless of if the class isn't particularly optimal, it's a niche that players like to fill. I just want to make sure that if someone wants to fill that role without having the stigma of being a divine emissary or a witch, they can do so.
I guess I don't understand your objection to doing this. I don't want to remove the cleric/oracle from the game. I want those to still be options. I just don't want those to be the only options to play those spell lists. I basically want to figure out how to make it so that a player who wants to select this option isn't completely gimped in choosing to do so.
My question, I guess, isn't "do you think this is a good or useful idea for your games?" but rather "how do I make this idea, which is useful in my games, a workable idea?"
I get that, totally. On your comment about the oracle having only light armor, yes, but nearly all of the mysteries gain an ability to boost defenses.
In order to avoid gimping the players you can give the class bard armor proficiencies (light and shields) as well as maybe something modelled after one of the oracle abilities. You can also give the wizard access to 1-2 domains. I'd recommend just adding the domain spells to their class list rather than using domain slots. This will counteract a lot of the weaknesses of the cleric list. Its not a bad list, but at lower levels it is pretty weak.
I get that, totally. On your comment about the oracle having only light armor, yes, but nearly all of the mysteries gain an ability to boost defenses.
In order to avoid gimping the players you can give the class bard armor proficiencies (light and shields) as well as maybe something modelled after one of the oracle abilities. You can also give the wizard access to 1-2 domains. I'd recommend just adding the domain spells to their class list rather than using domain slots. This will counteract a lot of the weaknesses of the cleric list. Its not a bad list, but at lower levels it is pretty weak.
Domain wizard isn't a bad option. I like that. I would just put them in as alternate specializations, like the elemental wizards. Instead of the normal specialization powers, you get the domain powers, and you'd gain the bonus spells of the domain to use in your specialist slots.
Sorcerers are a bit trickier, I guess. I was hoping to make this just an archetype, and not have to effect bloodlines as well. I intended to limit this to the various outsider bloodlines (mostly for flavor reasons, not a particular balance reason), so it might be possible to build this in as a wildblood option for those various bloodlines. Hrm...
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I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm trying to understand your goal for wanting it. I'm also wondering about putting the last nails in the coffin of the Cleric, but that's a a little different.
What I was trying to say is that the arcane characters already have better buffs in general. With the exception of straight healing and lesser restoration type things, (minus Infernal Healing), I think the Sorcerer/Wizard is already better all around.
What does adding divine spells to an arcane class have to do with armor?
What does adding divine spells to an arcane class have to do with armor?
Overall defense and the fact the divine spells (from a divine source) don't have spell failure. Clerics can cast all of their spells in full plate if they want, but put a wizard in a padded vest and suddenly he has a 5% chance to screw it up.
Many. I never thought I'd see the day when clerics are called weak. If people are playing them as pure casters, I can see them as weak. But they should be played as fighters that are also full casters.
They do get some nice defensive spells though. Shield of Faith and Magic Vestement primarily. Grab Blind Fight and use obscuring mist.
Okay, so he is Domain Wizard 1.0. I've been working on the logistics of the divine-list sorcerer, and realized that it probably needs to be a series of wildblood archetypes.
Domain Wizard
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Domain wizards are proficient with all simple weapons. Domain wizards are also proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields). A domain wizard can cast spells granted by the domain wizard's spells class feature while wearing light armor and use a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a domain wizard wearing medium or heavy armor incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass domain still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
This ability replaces the wizard's normal weapon and armor proficiency.
Spells: A domain wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the cleric spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard's spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard's Intelligence modifier.
A wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Wizard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.
A domain wizard may learn spells from arcane scrolls or divine scrolls, as long as the spell on the scroll is on the domain wizard's spell list. Regardless of the source, all spells in a domain wizard's spellbook are considered arcane.
This ability modifies the normal wizard spells ability.
Domain: Due to study of the divine ways, a domain wizard gains access to two cleric domains. The domain wizard gains access to the Knowledge Domain (or one of its sub-domains) and one other of the player's choice (subject to GM approval). A domain wizard can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.
When determining the powers and bonus spells granted by this domain, the wizard's effective cleric level is equal to his wizard level. A wizard that selects this option also receives additional domain spell slots, just like a cleric. He must prepare a spell from his domains in this slot.
A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to his spellbook as soon as he becomes able to cast it. These spells do not count against his two new spells per wizard level.
A domain wizard casts spells from his chosen domain (regardless of whether the spell was prepared as a domain spell or a normal spell) as a caster one level higher than his normal level.
In some cases, a domain includes spells not normally on the domain wizard's class spell list. These spells are treated as being on the character's class spell list (and thus he can use wands or scrolls that hold those spells, or even prepare those spells in her normal wizard spell slots).
In addition, a domain wizard gains the listed powers from both of his domains, if he is of a high enough level. Unless otherwise noted, using a domain power is a standard action. A domain wizard replaces any instance of wisdom in a domain power with intelligence. Any powers based on a cleric's wisdom modifier are instead based on the domain wizard's intelligence modifier.
This ability replaces arcane school.
Cantrips: A domain wizard selects his cantrips from the cleric's list of orisons. This ability modifies cantrips, but is identical in all other ways.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Critiques?
