Mad Monkey spell:
1. Does the Disarm or Steam Combat Maneuver provoke and attack of opportunity?
2. Is the Monkey Swarms "Weapon Finesse" Feat a mistake, since a swarm does not make an attack roll?
MAD MONKEY: "...The monkeys attempt one disarm or steal combat maneuver each
turn as a free action..."
DISARM: "...If you do not have the Improved Disarm feat, or a similar ability, attempting to disarm a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver..."
STEAL: "...If you do not have the Improved Steal feat or a similar ability, attempting to steal an object provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver..."
PRIMATE, MONKEY SWARM; WEAPON FINESSE: "...use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls..."
SWARM ATTACK: "...Creatures with the swarm subtype deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed..."
Mad Monkey spell:
1. Does the Disarm or Steam Combat Maneuver provoke and attack of opportunity?
2. Is the Monkey Swarms "Weapon Finesse" Feat a mistake, since a swarm does not make an attack roll?
Yes and yes.
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2. Is the Monkey Swarms "Weapon Finesse" Feat a mistake, since a swarm does not make an attack roll?
I'm fairly certain the design intent of the game was to permit Weapon Finesse to access DEX rather than STR for calculating DMB (and various & sundry will likely point to this spell as further circumstantial evidence of that).
2. Is the Monkey Swarms "Weapon Finesse" Feat a mistake, since a swarm does not make an attack roll?I'm fairly certain the design intent of the game was to permit Weapon Finesse to access DEX rather than STR for calculating DMB (and various & sundry will likely point to this spell as further circumstantial evidence of that).
Hi Mike,
Do you mean CMB (Combat Maneuver Bonus)?The "Mad Monkeys" spell requires the use of the Caster Level + Cha bonus (or other caster relative ability).
Can you point me to what info you are referring to please?
If this feat is a mistake, I cant find any correction or Errata or anything. I am thinking its now useless, but that doesnt mean I can come up with my own suggested feat.
But doesnt this CR creature need another feat? Ack!
A Monkey Swarms CMB in its stat block is - (0):
CMB = BAB (+2) + Str Mod (-2) + Special Size Mod (-2)
(So this already seems off)
The Weapon Finesse feat does nothing but replace Dex for Str for attack rolls. The Monkey Swarms Dex is 16, a +3 modifier.
Thanks!
John
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In regard to AoO
I don't think that RAI there should be an attack. There is no wording that lets the caster not do the swarm the attack. If they attack a group of several characters/monsters you would get back multiple AoO.
Also the action is not during the turn of the monkeys but rather if someone starts his turn in the monkey swarm.
RAW I agree and it should cause AoO.
I hope the OP doesn't mind if I ask another related question here.
Is the character casting the spell able to direct the monkeys what they should steal.
In the last game a Druid instructed them to steal the holy symbol. He had no speak animal but referred to the wording in the spell that give him control over the swarm.
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A Monkey Swarms CMB in its stat block is - (0):
CMB = BAB (+2) + Str Mod (-2) + Special Size Mod (-2)
(So this already seems off)The Weapon Finesse feat does nothing but replace Dex for Str for attack rolls. The Monkey Swarms Dex is 16, a +3 modifier.
Combat Maneuvers which are made as attacks (such as Disarm) benefit from Weapon Finesse and thus replace Dex for Str in calculating the CMB.
Other Combat Maneuvers do not and use the statted CMB
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Is the character casting the spell able to direct the monkeys what they should steal.
In the last game a Druid instructed them to steal the holy symbol. He had no speak animal but referred to the wording in the spell that give him control over the swarm.
Your Druid is right : "The swarm understands and obeys your commands"
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Mad Monkey spell:
1. Does the Disarm or Steam Combat Maneuver provoke and attack of opportunity?
Does the Monkey Swarm have the corresponding Improved Maneuver feat or an equivalent special ability ? If not, they provoke.
2. Is the Monkey Swarms "Weapon Finesse" Feat a mistake, since a swarm does not make an attack roll?
A swarm does not make an attack roll to inflict damage. Since nothing is said about combat maneuvers, a swarm still has to make an attack roll (with its CMB) to use a combat maneuver.
A Monkey Swarms CMB in its stat block is - (0):
CMB = BAB (+2) + Str Mod (-2) + Special Size Mod (-2)
(So this already seems off)
The CMB isn't 0, it's - ("dash"). I think they chose this to represent that it can't grapple, and (for CMD) that it can't be grappled, tripped, or bull rushed. I don't think it's supposed to represent any numerical value.
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Your Druid is right : "The swarm understands and obeys your commands"Is the character casting the spell able to direct the monkeys what they should steal.
In the last game a Druid instructed them to steal the holy symbol. He had no speak animal but referred to the wording in the spell that give him control over the swarm.
This is the issue - they have int 2 and there was a large discussion when animal companions suddenly couldn't do everything being told anymore.
The Druid can give them a scroll and tell them to read it. They will obey but will be unable to follow the instructions as they don't understand them.
Stealing an item is easier but it needs a description that the monkeys understand. How complex a command will they follow? Where does the understand and obey break down?
Your Druid is right : "The swarm understands and obeys your commands"Is the character casting the spell able to direct the monkeys what they should steal.
In the last game a Druid instructed them to steal the holy symbol. He had no speak animal but referred to the wording in the spell that give him control over the swarm.
This is the issue - they have int 2 and there was a large discussion when animal companions suddenly couldn't do everything being told anymore.
The Druid can give them a scroll and tell them to read it. They will obey but will be unable to follow the instructions as they don't understand them.
Stealing an item is easier but it needs a description that the monkeys understand. How complex a command will they follow? Where does the understand and obey break down?
I would think its partially a mental control command, since the spell doesn't require you to speak with animals to do it. It just states they follow your commands. This is not an animal companion. Its a magically created swarm of mad monkeys that uses the info and abilities of a monkey swarm.
The CMB isn't 0, it's - ("dash"). I think they chose this to represent that it can't grapple, and (for CMD) that it can't be grappled, tripped, or bull rushed. I don't think it's supposed to represent any numerical value.
A Monkey Swarms CMB in its stat block is - (0):
CMB = BAB (+2) + Str Mod (-2) + Special Size Mod (-2)
(So this already seems off)
That makes complete sense. So if weapon finesse is applied, the monley swarm cmb would be +3.
A mad monkey spells monkey swarm is cater level + ability score (cha for bard), so ignores or overides the regular monkey swarm cmb I guess?
A Monkey Swarms CMB in its stat block is - (0):
CMB = BAB (+2) + Str Mod (-2) + Special Size Mod (-2)
(So this already seems off)The Weapon Finesse feat does nothing but replace Dex for Str for attack rolls. The Monkey Swarms Dex is 16, a +3 modifier.
Combat Maneuvers which are made as attacks (such as Disarm) benefit from Weapon Finesse and thus replace Dex for Str in calculating the CMB.
Other Combat Maneuvers do not and use the statted CMB
Really? Can this be true? This would be awesome but I don't see where that is mentioned.
EDIT: Unless you are referring to this...
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When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
...In which case, what is Agile Maneuvers for except people who don't have Weapon Finesse and Improved Unarmed Strike?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Your Druid is right : "The swarm understands and obeys your commands"Is the character casting the spell able to direct the monkeys what they should steal.
In the last game a Druid instructed them to steal the holy symbol. He had no speak animal but referred to the wording in the spell that give him control over the swarm.
This is the issue - they have int 2 and there was a large discussion when animal companions suddenly couldn't do everything being told anymore.
The Druid can give them a scroll and tell them to read it. They will obey but will be unable to follow the instructions as they don't understand them.
Stealing an item is easier but it needs a description that the monkeys understand. How complex a command will they follow? Where does the understand and obey break down?
The impression I got was the swarm would move where you wanted but would steal a random item rather than a specific thing. Now that I re-read it I'm not so sure.
I'm curious now if it works with Augment Summoning.
Agile Maneuvers applies to all combat maneuver checks. Weapon Finesse only applies to combat maneuver checks made with a finessable weapon (such as disarm with a rapier, sunder with a curve blade, etc); there are several combat maneuvers (such as grapple) that are not made with weapons.
Winning.
This just made my build that much easier.
So, bump, what should be done with the Weapon Finesse feat? Add CL+Spellcasting mod+3 for the monkeys dex to it's CMB? Or house rule a new feat?
Houserule a new feat.
It would not make sense for weapon finesse to add to the CMB since it isn't calculated based on the swarm.
To make the swarm work as intended giving it improved steal might not be unreasonable.
The monkey swarm can make one Steal or Disarm attempt as a Free Action per turn.
RAW = "Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity."