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So, I've decided to make a Zen archer/Qinggong monk in an upcoming campaign, and I wanted to know if I could sign up for a vow or three? In the vows description it states that "A monk who takes a vow never gains the still
mind class feature, even if he abandons all his vows."
However, a Zen Archer replaces still mind with point blank master at level 3, so does that mean that I foregoe point blank master when I take vows or can I not take vows at all (not having still mind) or (and this is where I'm confused) as the RAW implies, I never gain still mind if I do take vows despite the fact that I don't get still mind anyway?
I don't think there's an errata out on UM yet, so I just need some clarification on this.
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The trouble is, the vows are not actually listed as an archetype, and it never says that it replaces Still Mind (all archetypes that replace abilities have it worded "this replaces X class feature) it just says that they never gain the Still Mind class feature... if it was worded the way everything else is there would be no ambiguity.
I would love to hear a developers opinion on whether this was intentional or if it was actually supposed to be worded the same as the others and it is just an omission.
Please please please? :D
For the monk vows it says that you never gain still mind but it doesn't replace still mind. Therefore you can use it with zen archer.
No you can't Black Lantern, you can't take Zen Archer if you don't have still mind at all, since you don't have still mind to be replaced by the Zen Archer archtype ability.
This is the part that confuses me:
A monk can take a vow at any level, but it does not add to his ki pool until he gains a ki pool as a class feature. A monk who takes a vow never gains the still mind class feature, even if he abandons all his vows.
So what happens if he makes a normal monk, without vows, and later on, say 6th level (when he already has Still Mind) decides to take a vow? I mean, it says you take it at any level.
Do you then lose Still Mind? Or do you have to decide whether you will take one in the future at lvl 1? What if you decide you might want to take one in the future, but then don't end up taking one?
I think the whole thing is just worded weirdly, and they should have just made it an archetype and had it work like the others where it just replaces the ability straight up.
No you can't Black Lantern, you can't take Zen Archer if you don't have still mind at all, since you don't have still mind to be replaced by the Zen Archer archtype ability.
So it's really which one applies first. Hmm. I'm going to take zen archer first level then apply vows directly after. Therefore I don't violate anything.
So it's really which one applies first. Hmm. I'm going to take zen archer first level then apply vows directly after. Therefore I don't violate anything.No you can't Black Lantern, you can't take Zen Archer if you don't have still mind at all, since you don't have still mind to be replaced by the Zen Archer archtype ability.
Nope, you've already started an archetype that replaces Still Mind. Therefore, since you don't have still mind to not have it, you can't take vows.
It's a catch 22. Vows require you to give up still mind. Zen Archer requires you to give up still mind. If you never have still mind, then you can't meet the requirement of 'giving it up' for one of them.
As soon as you take Zen Archer, you never have Still Mind as a class feature. Therefore, you can't give it up for vows.
Remember, an archetype replaces EVERYTHING it replaces as soon as you take it. Zen Archer must be taken at level 1, so your entire Monk tree changes to a Zen Archers's tree. That tree don't have no still mind fruit on it for the Vow to pluck away.
But it says you never gain Still Mind, it never says that you have to give it up in order to get the vows. (The vows are not an archetype themselves, so the normal 'can't replace the same class feature' thing of archetypes does not appear to apply, as it never actually says anything is replaced, just that getting Still Mind doesn't happen)
Its kind of messy at best in wording, not as clear cut as the rest of the book.
If it says you never gain still mind, and still mind is not something you would normally gain, then how can you never gain it. It's a requirement that you never gain it. Since you were never going to gain it, you can't meet the requirement to not gain it.
*shrug*
Then I'd say it needs to be cleaned up some (granted, the entire UM has been a giant pile of things that needed to be cleaned up, take that in whatever way you want). I think I've seen more typos, mistakes, and poor wordings in UM than in every other PF RPG book combined.
My suggestion? Hit the FAQ on the OP, and hope SKR get's around to working on the FAQ system again. He was doing a great job for about 4-5 months, then things tapered off for the holiday season.
Zen archer replaces still mind which lets you qualify for the archetype. However since you already replaced it to qualify for zen archer you can take monk vows because it just says you never gain it. It doesn't say you have to replace something for it.
If it says you never gain still mind, and still mind is not something you would normally gain, then how can you never gain it. It's a requirement that you never gain it. Since you were never going to gain it, you can't meet the requirement to not gain it.
But it never says that not gaining it is a requirement!
As weird as it is, I have to agree that you can taking Vows after taking an archetype sounds legit to me.
From UM monk chapter:
"Following the vows is a new archetype, the qinggong monk, who can learn unusual uses of ki."
Meaning vows are not archetypes but a separate thing.
"A monk who takes a vow never gains the still mind class feature, even if he abandons all his vows."
It does not say that it removes the ability, nor that you need to actually have it, just that you can't gain it from a monk class ability.
Why anyone would want PF monk vows is beyond me though, I find them harsher than 3.5 Flaws for a somewhat crappy benefit, which is easily gained by going for the Drunken Master archetype or Hungry Ghost instead.
Oh they can be fully worthwhile.
For example: If you are playing a character who is not the type to lie or be false (for example a Monk with Cha dump stat who knows damn well nobody would believe him anyway) then you can take Vow of Truth.
Bam. Free Ki point per 6 levels at essentially no cost whatsoever.
Vow of fasting I also find really good as I usually just give all my characters a ring of sustenance asap.. you just cant have potions and stuff, but really not a big deal for the trade off. Of course, this is assuming Ki points are of reasonable value to you. I love Qinggong monks though, so usually they are more valued to me than a traditional monk.
Zen archer replaces still mind which lets you qualify for the archetype. However since you already replaced it to qualify for zen archer you can take monk vows because it just says you never gain it. It doesn't say you have to replace something for it.
Until it's cleared up I would say play it how you want but this type of thinikng is too loophole-y for me. If you have to replace "X" to get "Y" but you no longer have "X" then you shouldn't get "Y".
The Zen Archer specifically states that "...this ability replaces Still Mind." (emphasis mine)
The part that confuses me is that you don't have to take vows at level 1.
So you go Zen Archer, and replace Still Mind at level 3. Then at level 6 you decide to take a vow, what happens? Time Paradox?
Or should we just delete the part that says you can take vows whenever and instead call it an archetype that replaces Still Mind and get rid of the confusion.
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The part that confuses me is that you don't have to take vows at level 1.
So you go Zen Archer, and replace Still Mind at level 3. Then at level 6 you decide to take a vow, what happens? Time Paradox?
Or should we just delete the part that says you can take vows whenever and instead call it an archetype that replaces Still Mind and get rid of the confusion.
Drop the Zen Archer part, and what happens when a regular Monk, who has been using Still Mind for 3 levels, decides, at 6th level, to take a Vow?
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Drop the Zen Archer part, and what happens when a regular Monk, who has been using Still Mind for 3 levels, decides, at 6th level, to take a Vow?The part that confuses me is that you don't have to take vows at level 1.
So you go Zen Archer, and replace Still Mind at level 3. Then at level 6 you decide to take a vow, what happens? Time Paradox?
Or should we just delete the part that says you can take vows whenever and instead call it an archetype that replaces Still Mind and get rid of the confusion.
What happens when a ninja, who never had Still Mind in the first place, decides to take a vow?
Exactly, this is why I am still confused.
Which is why you should handle it as it says, you do not gain it as a class feature. Nowhere does it say you replace it, or remove it, just not gain, that leave it bit open to "you can have this if you don't have Still Mind, but if you have Still Mind, you have to drop it."
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Can a rogue take a vow?
Yes.
This section introduces monk vows, which any user of ki can take to increase his ki pool.
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It does have an official ruling from Paizo on it (there's been a change to the text). This thread is more than a year old, things change.
The text now reads: "The ability to take these vows replaces the still mind class feature, even if the monk abandons all his vows."
But the confusing statement remains. "This section introduces monk vows, which any user of ki can take to increase his ki pool."
So, technically, the Ninja cannot make vows without dipping into monk.