Are numeric bonuses from items capped at their traditional maximums?
Such as resistance, deflection, natural armor bonuses (+5)
Ability scores (+6)
Armor bonuses (+5) for armor (+8) for 'bracers of armor'
Weapon to hit / damage bonuses (+5)
Or can you dump as much Numen as you want into any bonus type?
Per the Equipment chapter, they're all capped at +5 except armor bonus, which can be jacked all the way up to +10. That said, it might not be totally outrageous to let a 20th level character spend every last point of his numen he can scrape up on a sword that provides a +20 insight bonus to attacks.
I can't seem to find where in the equipment chapter (Kirthfinder) states that all enhancement bonuses are capped at +5, Although I do see the +10 notation. So I assume it's using the default Pathfinder rules.
Regardless i have a few points of clarification:
- Stat bonuses, so these are also capped at +5 now meaning the only way to get a +6 or greater is with the appropriate feat (like stamina training) or a heightened stat boosting spell.
- Item bonuses to skills also capped at +5? In Pathfinder i believe the unwritten rule is a max of +10.
- Can the +5 bonus on a weapon be exceeded with talents like the fighters Personal weapon Talent. Or do those bonuses need to be traded in for their GP value if they are in excess of +5?
Happy New years by the way :)
More questions, as I look at converting items from 3.P to KF within the existing KF rules... As well as general poking at things.
1. Does the Somatic property via Arcane Bond scale with level as the Somatic Weapon feat does, or is it as the 2000 numen weapon property only?
2. Does a use-activated spell effect which triggers on a hit/critical hit affect multiple creatures as if the spell had been cast normally?
Specific Examples:
2a. Prayer (Cleric 3, 40’ burst) on hit/crit - Self only? Target only? Normal 40’ burst and effects? Since there is a continuing effect, I assume one should use instantaneous (x8) pricing, not rd/level (x4) pricing. (And that the contingent restriction then makes it x1)
2b. Silence, on a crit - Target of attack? Target the weapon/wielder?
2c. Solid Fog, on a crit - Centered on weapon? Target? Can be targeted wherever the wielder wishes as if they had cast the spell?
3. Is triggering on a kill sufficiently contingent to use that pricing? A number of items in Pathfinder use that terminology.
Sneak Attack says that you can add a single strike to the attack if SA successfully deals damage;
4. Does this apply to a full-attack if the required sneak attack trigger is still present? (Flatfooted, denied Dex bonus, etc)
5. Would that force you to add the -5 penalty for full attacking if the strike has that text if you added the strike to each attack that way? Crippling Strike, for example.
5b. If a strike does NOT have the text about being able to be used in a full attack, does a full-attack with SA damage allow a standard-action only strike to be used multiple times?
6. Does this allow you to use a strike regularly, and then add a second strike if the sneak attack succeeds?
Wounding as a weapon property, per Ch. 6 for 12,000 numen (BAB +6);
7. As the feat, so 1d6 and non-stacking?
8. Taking a -5 penalty and reduced damage to 1d4 when full attacking?
9. How could one price a bonus like Elemental Aura (1d6 elemental, changeable at will as a free action 1/round, from Magic of Faerun). My attempt was to use Sudden Metamagic and Versatile Evocation; to allow switching between caustic, flame, frost, and shock twice per day would be 4000 numen - 2000 per feat. Possibly taking a leap of logic and saying that Sudden Metamagic allows two uses, therefore 2.5x would be five uses and equal at will (with potentially broken effects for metamagic rods) for a cost of 7000 numen.
Suggestion: Include synergy for Heedless Charge to allow it to work with Skirmish and Spring Attack.
Happy Holidays and warmest wishes!
1. Does the Somatic property via Arcane Bond scale with level as the Somatic Weapon feat does, or is it as the 2000 numen weapon property only?
2. Does a use-activated spell effect which triggers on a hit/critical hit affect multiple creatures as if the spell had been cast normally?3. Is triggering on a kill sufficiently contingent to use that pricing? A number of items in Pathfinder use that terminology.
Sneak Attack says that you can add a single strike to the attack if SA successfully deals damage;
4. Does this apply to a full-attack if the required sneak attack trigger is still present? (Flatfooted, denied Dex bonus, etc)
5. Would that force you to add the -5 penalty for full attacking if the strike has that text if you added the strike to each attack that way? Crippling Strike, for example.
5b. If a strike does NOT have the text about being able to be used in a full attack, does a full-attack with SA damage allow a standard-action only strike to be used multiple times?
6. Does this allow you to use a strike regularly, and then add a second strike if the sneak attack succeeds?Wounding as a weapon property, per Ch. 6 for 12,000 numen (BAB +6);
7. As the feat, so 1d6 and non-stacking?
8. Taking a -5 penalty and reduced damage to 1d4 when full attacking?
9. How could one price a bonus like Elemental Aura (1d6 elemental, changeable at will as a free action 1/round, from Magic...
1. I'll have to look at it and get back to you; remind me if I forget!
2. Case-by-case, as agreed by referee and players, but generally a harmful effect will target only the creature hit.3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. No; sneak attack is just that awesome.
6. Not unless you have Striking Mastery.
7.-8. Yes.
9. Variable Spell (+1 level) + Versatile Evocation (+1 level)
Regardless i have a few points of clarification:
Part of the reason for enforcing a quadratic pricing scheme is to make the enforcement of bonus caps less important. And they're doubly less important if you're using the "diminishing returns" option in the Intro (which I guess people are now referring to as "bounded accuracy" after 5e?). Anyway, between those things, I see no reason to be really strict about capping them.
I actually have a question regarding diminishing returns/bounded accuracy. At what point does the check become impossible.
For example if a flying creature took 40 damage in a single blow that's a DC 100 fly check, which diminishes down to 30. Meaning it's very make able (or an auto pass if they have a +20 and 10 ranks).
Or in a more abuseable example reduced skill check times, you could take something that takes hours like mining/power over shadow and add 60 to the DC to make it a swift action which will inevitably reduce down to DC 30 and then just do the thing until you succeed.
I feel like there should be an upper limit of some sort to the maximum DC that can be attempted, possibly based on skill ranks or character level. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
I was thinking perhaps a system that uses the tiers established at levels 1,6,11 and,16 respectively.
Basically you have a number that is the maximum DC you can attempt and anything higher than that is impossible. The maximum is raised at every tier.
Maybe it's also possible to attempt things over your maximum but only if your modifier is at a specific threshold. this way If a player is really good at a specific thing (i.e they've specialized) they can preform feats that should be impossible for someone of their cosmic power status while still making something like mining out a tunnel in a series of swift actions impossible for a low level character (not that it should necessarily be impossible for higher level characters).
How do you handle suites of spell-like abilities that include multiple options at certain spell levels? For example, the transmuter wizard gets this: "4th—beast shape II, elemental body I, or monstrous physique II". Does the character 1) have to choose one of the spells as their known 4th level SLA and give up the other two, or 2) have the option of using any one of them 1/day (or 3/day or whatever), or 3) something else?
I feel like there should be an upper limit of some sort to the maximum DC that can be attempted, possibly based on skill ranks or character level. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
I like your suggestion. Let me put some thought into it, but you're right -- we should probably not be in a situation where a character can jump to the moon by simply Taking 20.
How do you handle suites of spell-like abilities that include multiple options at certain spell levels? For example, the transmuter wizard gets this: "4th—beast shape II, elemental body I, or monstrous physique II". Does the character 1) have to choose one of the spells as their known 4th level SLA and give up the other two, or 2) have the option of using any one of them 1/day (or 3/day or whatever), or 3) something else?
I'm embarrassed, because it's actually (1) and (2) depending on the situation, and I failed to spell that out.
(1) For bonus spells lists for the cleric, incarnate, sorcerer, etc., (1) is correct. You get one of those bonus spells, chosen when it becomes available, and lose the other(s). The same is also true for SLA lists for races, etc. So you could call this a general rule, which I need to clarify in the Spells chapter.
However,
(2) For the Transmuter specifically, (2) is correct, because beast shape II vs. monstrous physique II just means a slightly different form. Again, I should have called this out as a specific exception to the general rule.
Here's My First stab at the DC thing:
Character level vs Maximum Attempt-able DC
- Level 1-5 : 24
- Level 6-10 : 29
- Level 11-16: 39 (10 point jump due to how the power curve tends to go past this point)
- Level 16+: Special
Past a DC of 40 and or Level 16 Compare the Undiminished Values of both the Check and the Target in question, if the DC could be met by taking 20 then resolve the roll with diminished numbers except ignore the cap of 20 and 30 for modifiers and DC's Respectively.So if one were to try and beat a DC of 80 they themselves would need at least a +60 undiminished modifier in order to try. Such an attempt would resolve at a bonus of +32 vs a DC of 47
If you can beat the undiminished DC with a take 20 and an uncapped diminished modifier you can attempt the roll.
So someone with at least an effective +5 Strength modifier Can attempt to break down a DC 25 Door at by rolling 1d20 +5 vs DC 20 but a character with only a +4 Strength modifier could not.
However once the second character becomes level/CR 6 they may always attempt the check vs the diminished DC regardless of their modifier.
Most notably this stops a +0 strength mod peasant from breaking down an Iron door normally DC of 28 -> Dim 21 with nothing but a crowbar. Or Manacles DC 26 -> Dim 20 after ~20 attempts
This also should serve to not penalize characters (overly so) who have specialized in a particular skill heavily as they can attempt things that someone who has not committed such resources could not even hope to attempt.
It also lets people naturally get more heroic as tasks that were once difficult become much much easier as diminishing makes that once DC 25 strength check into a DC 20 past level 6.
There might need to be exceptions to this rule, such as:
- AC. Although something literally being uninhabitable is humorous. The creature taking reduced damage for each tier of separation would be an interesting change though (random musings)
- Fly checks, these can get massive fast so they might need either exemption or special handling
- I haven't committed much thought into how this would interact with saving throws but i suspect the numbers are high enough that it should never become relevant. Except perhaps when you have high level characters interacting with low level characters. Oooh wait that means if the character in question (pc/npc) has a DC > 24 then level 1-5 npc's / PC's can't resist.. so your level 3 commoner cant save vs the wizards supped up disintegrate or whatnot i actualy quite like that a lot /stream of consciousness
How do you handle suites of spell-like abilities that include multiple options at certain spell levels? For example, the transmuter wizard gets this: "4th—beast shape II, elemental body I, or monstrous physique II". Does the character 1) have to choose one of the spells as their known 4th level SLA and give up the other two, or 2) have the option of using any one of them 1/day (or 3/day or whatever), or 3) something else?I'm embarrassed, because it's actually (1) and (2) depending on the situation, and I failed to spell that out.
(1) For bonus spells lists for the cleric, incarnate, sorcerer, etc., (1) is correct. You get one of those bonus spells, chosen when it becomes available, and lose the other(s). The same is also true for SLA lists for races, etc. So you could call this a general rule, which I need to clarify in the Spells chapter.
However,
(2) For the Transmuter specifically, (2) is correct, because beast shape II vs. monstrous physique II just means a slightly different form. Again, I should have called this out as a specific exception to the general rule.
Excellent, thanks!
Here's a more readable version of my idea regarding diminishing returns.
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Here's a more readable version of my idea regarding diminishing returns.
And now i have to ask when we are getting snazzy Kirthfinder doc's like that. Very nice looking.
Literally just found that website and it looks awesome. I tihnk it might be possible to convert word docs / pdfs into the appropriate markup language using a utility. Although i'm half tempted to do it by hand >_>
Here's a link to the main page of that site.
Ah yes, that site. It gets referenced a lot on the Unearthed Arcana Reddit page. It doesn't seem to like browsers other than Chrome though.
Aww that's unfortunate.
Anyways here's the Unchained Barbarian
Is there any way to save those or only print?
Yup just click the Get PDF option in the top right, which you can then save or print.
You can also click the get source to see just the raw text/markup
Only Sorc, Wizard, incarnate Rogue and Druid left to format.
Also question. Is weapon finesse supposed to scale off of opportune strike for Rogues? It doesn't in my version and that seems strange given how finesse and rogue go hand in hand.
Also question. Is weapon finesse supposed to scale off of opportune strike for Rogues? It doesn't in my version and that seems strange given how finesse and rogue go hand in hand.
Yes, it is. If it doesn't specifically say so, it should!
Excelent. I'll make sure to change the document.
Only Sorc, Wizard and Druid left.
Although I might need to break the feats chapter up into smaller chunks. It takes a loooonnng time to load/render >_>
Just noticed that and also realized I have been running it as though it did.
BTW, 5e has a very nice style, but I personally like to leave it for 5e. If I had the time, I'd design a KF template -- maybe woodcut-y things in the side margins, with big calligraphy first letters or something (I was an artist before I went into the sciences).
But right now, having that kind of free time is just wishful thinking on my part.
Ideally I can figure out how to go directly from word doc to pdf (70% sure how to do this) with a template styling applied (not so sure how to do this) with almost 0 user input (yay scripts!) and without needing to use that website to make it look pretty.
For now it's serviceable but I'm not super keen on how difficult it would be currently to go back and edit / update as you need to manually add page breaks on that site. In a perfect world you could just throw any of the documents at it and it would spit them out all formatted and pretty.
I think there's a typo in the my version Witch's Hex's known:
None. The witch gains more powers than a normal specialist, but lacks a specialist bonus.
Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + half your number of ranks in Concentration + your Charisma modifier. You can use any hex you know at will.
At 1st, 4th, and 8th levels (each), you gain one of the following minor hexes:
I assume this should read at 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th (Whenever they would gain a school power or a specialist bonus increase).
I think there's a typo in the my version Witch's Hex's known
I was thinking about that the other day. I'd like to make all of the hexes into [reserve] spell-like abilities, gained based on class level instead of ranks in Concentration: the witch would gain a 1st level hex at 2nd level, a 1st or 2nd at 4th, etc. That would eliminate a whole extraneous sub-system.
That would be interesting. So basically a hex per patron spell?
That would be interesting. So basically a hex per patron spell?
The patron spells would still be your bonus spells from Table 1 in the Spellcasting chapter -- part of your actual daily casting. The hexes would be extras that work off your highest-level uncast spell.
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Woo. Finished! I Had to break the feat's chapter up as is was far too large and unwieldy (also took forever to render). But it's done.
That website makes it much easier to read, but I get render errors anytime it's zoomed in more than 67% (which is verging on too small to read.) It doesn't affect everything, but some stuff gets shunted off-page (where it's not visible at all.) I don't know if that's just a problem with Chrome, or something inherent to the site, but figured I'd mention it. It's still super preferable to the text documents I've been using, though.
Can you use the Heighten Spell rules with spell-like abilities? I'm curious how that works with both racial abilities and the rogue's skill tricks.
I'd recommend just downloading it as a PDF and then zooming on that
Can you use the Heighten Spell rules with spell-like abilities? I'm curious how that works with both racial abilities and the rogue's skill tricks.
Yes; just how it does with spells. They'd have to be "pre-loaded" that way, and would be the new (modified) level; you can't Heighten them on the fly.
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I propose adding the following language to the ediolon description for the Summoner sorcerer:
It is considered CR ½. As you gain in power, so does your eidolon; starting at 4th level, its racial HD increase to 2 and its natural armor bonus increases by +1 (CR 1). Thereafter, its CR increases by 1 per additional class level you gain. For each CR increase, either add 2 racial HD and +1 to its natural AC, or else apply a CR +1 template (Advanced, Celestial, Giant, etc.). You can also choose to “save up” for more powerful templates. This freedom of design eliminates the need for tables of base stats, “evolution points,” and so on.
Your eidolon gains no numen of its own, but you can assign some or all of your own numen to it, either in the form of magic items, or as if it were a magic item itself (Chapter 6).
You can then eliminate all the eidolon stats tables, evolutions descriptions, and so on. This is spurred by the Kirthfinder design goals of eliminating extraneous sub-systems and increasing player freedom of choice. Importantly, it also reduces page count.
If someone could get those uploaded to Google etc., then perhaps I can view them without needing Chrome.
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I was thinking about that the other day. I'd like to make all of the hexes into [reserve] spell-like abilities, gained based on class level instead of ranks in Concentration: the witch would gain a 1st level hex at 2nd level, a 1st or 2nd at 4th, etc. That would eliminate a whole extraneous sub-system.
Even simpler:
1st—bane, brand (APG), charm animal, charm person, claws of the bear (MF), comprehend languages, disguise self, doom, feather fall, speak with animals
2nd—cure light wounds, curse of the gypsies (Dr348), desecrate, misfortune (APG), sleep, speak with vermin
3rd—alter fortune (PHII), beast claws (CD), beast shape I, bestow curse, borrow fortune (APG), clairvoyance, contagion, cure moderate wounds, deep slumber, dominate animal, fly, mirage arcana (your home only), remove disease, speak with plants, strangling hair (UM), tongues, water breathing
4th—arcane eye, beast shape II, lesser age resistance (UM), blight, cure serious wounds, finger of agony (CM), greater brand (APG), poison
5th—baleful polymorph, cure critical wounds, dominate person, dream, magic jar, major curseUM, nightmare, overland flight, suffocation (APG)
6th—age resistance (UM), eyebite, heartfreeze (FB)
7th—control weather, finger of death, greater age resistance (UM), reincarnate, resurrection, vision
8th—binding, earthquake
9th—cursed earth, shapechange, storm of vengeance
Can you use the Heighten Spell rules with spell-like abilities? I'm curious how that works with both racial abilities and the rogue's skill tricks.Yes; just how it does with spells. They'd have to be "pre-loaded" that way, and would be the new (modified) level; you can't Heighten them on the fly.
I assumed as much with regular spell-likes, but wasn't sure if skill tricks worked any differently given the skill check required to use them. Thanks!
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Woo. Finished! I Had to break the feat's chapter up as is was far too large and unwieldy (also took forever to render). But it's done.
Documents
I complied everything into a single PDF, though I wish that I knew how to mess around with the bookmarks better. Still, it has been combined in its proper order at 524 pages. I sent it to Kirth in a PM for him to post a link here, so that resource can be available.
@ the hex thing
I assume those are not at-will and don't have the ignore HD for the sleep effects.
This change seems to make the Witch strictly inferior to any other specialist assuming you value their spell lists relatively equally. As the Witch is essentially trading 5 School powers, a capstone and a specialist bonus for what is essentially 3.2 feats (it's basically magical talent array twice but they are only getting 11 spells instead of 18).
Edit: Actually wait it appears that I misread. It looks like they only get 9 hex's total which is even worse. 2 feats vs 5 school powers (equivalent to 5 feats as they can be traded), and no specialist bonus and no capstone.
As any other specialist could choose to trade out their 5 school powers for feats and still come out ahead (both by having almost double the MTA spells with a power left over and still having a capstone and specialist bonus). It put's the Witch (in my mind) in the awkward place of being relegated to a 1 level dip class for Shaman access, which gives all the benefits of the Witch's spell list as well as incarnate revelations and other class features. Actually assuming this scale off of spell access the Shaman would get all the hex's as well.
FW,
Correct, and with only that change, the witch would fall on its face.
Thoughts/preferences?
An expanded spell list might be appropriate however that may be redundant given that you can access more or less the whole of the cleric list via Shaman multi-class (and possibly druid depending on your mystery) so I think another pass on Hex's might be more appropriate.
Perhaps if you the Hex's scaled with the Witch's specialist bonus in some way.
Also when you say [Reserve] would they be feats that other characters could take but that the witch gains for "free"? As otherwise it's basically remaining as the original hex subsystem
Personally I think an ideal outcome would be a trade off between spell access (Shaman) or better Hex's (staying witch) which would differentiate the two.
Or maybe axe the shaman?
Which shaman are we refering to when we speak of the shaman.
The Shaman which is the hybrid between Incarnate and Witch, via the spirit magic feat.
Basically your incarnate casting becomes prepared and you gain access to the witch list although you need to purchase additonal spells know off of the witch list. So divine prepared fullcaster.
I quite like it thematically as it turns the incarnate into a non clerical divine prepared full caster with a few witch spells (patron spells + purchased).
Okay now I'm on the right page.
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So I decided to look at something I find interesting (and hopefully others do too) - comparative “values” of feats, vs class features, vs spells/numen, for similar effects.
- Extra Combat Feat - variable, from 2000 to 40,000 depending on which feat
- Fortification Fighter Talent - 2000/5% gives a value of 40,000 (unless capped by armor weight - 25%/50%/75% for light/medium/heavy, by example)
- Deflect Blows - +6 maximum would be equal to 72,000 (+1 more than normally allowed)
- Mobility - Freedom of Movement (continuous) is 42,000 - there are some other benefits from mobility
- Parry Spell - BAB+11 of Deflect Arrows, 22,000 (deflect arrows does have some extra restrictions - weapon finesse or focus)
- Physical Conditioning - up to +5 inherent bonus to a stat, so 5*5*5000 = 125,000 compared to a +5 tome
- Armored Skin - +7 max, 7*7*2000 = 98,000 per Ch. 6
- Blinding Speed -max 20 hasted rounds, free action to start/end. Vs haste at will - 13,500, standard action for five rounds. Continuous is 60,000.
- Diamond Soul - Spell resistance, max 31 at 20th. Vs the spell pricing rule of 10,000 per point over 12 - 190,000 numen
- Fast Healing vs Constant Vigor/infernal healing:
FH 1 vs 2,000
FH 2 vs 12,000
FH 3 vs 30,000
FH 4 vs 56,000
FH 5 vs 90,000
- Sheltered Vitality vs Death Ward (3.5): 56,000 for constant Death Ward. There are a few extra effects in Sheltered Vitality, but Guarded Attributes really takes care of most attribute concerns by that level.
It does have a distinct advantage of being totally charisma based for spells per day and saves (insofar as i can tell) and has an innately large list as it gets the whole the cleric list + thematic spells + patron spells + any purchased or previously known witch spells.