RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Maybe I'm sensing something that isn't there, but I'm sensing some defensiveness/combativeness in your post.
My first guess would be that your experience so far with people opposing your stated desire for defined sexuality has been defensive/combative, and you've thus come to expect it.
Perhaps you didn't actually care enough to have that suggested, but I'm a nerd with a psychology degree, so I couldn't help myself. :P
...if I were given a character who was flaming.
I was a little disappointed once I realized that you weren't referring to someone who could deal fire damage on a grapple. Oh well. :)
Creative Director
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Maybe I'm sensing something that isn't there, but I'm sensing some defensiveness/combativeness in your post.
And I don't know why.Again, I'm extremely proud of the fact that Paizo has not shied away from this part of characters. And, while I note that you don't feel it's the right time to release more information about these characters, it doesn't stop me from wanting an iconic to come out.
As for using these characters as pregens in society play, I don't participate in society play. So, I didn't know that. Thank you for taking the time to explain it. Though, I do note that several of your characters -do- have backgrounds. If I were given Alain as a character, for example, I'd be just as likely to feel that I was playing someone else's character as if I were given a character who was flaming.
Regardless, it's not my intent to get in an arguement, just to express what I'd like to see.
If I'm defensive, it's because I do quite like all of our iconics... even the ones I pick on. And when I see folks complain about them... even as in this case when the complaints aren't ACTUALLY complaints but a desire for more information... I just get defensive.
That said... I'm actually curious. What iconics would you nominate as being bad choices as gay or lesbian because that would make them into stereotypes?
Huh, reading over my posts makes me come off as a little hostile. Just to be perfectly clear here: all of my opinions are coming from the perspective of an openly gay 24 year old dude.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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That said... I'm actually curious. What iconics would you nominate as being bad choices as gay or lesbian because that would make them into stereotypes?
What about iconics we would nominate as bad choices because it would make them seem like they were chosen just to break stereotypes?
Or maybe I'm getting too "meta".
First off, I know the iconics are PCs. I had one guy play Lem in CotCT. He kept drawing The Beating in the Harrow portion.
That said, one thing to remember is that the iconics are just PCs. So are every other PC played in the game. Paizo can and has set the stage by writing in LGBT rumors, bits, set dressing, and items.
We make the game what it is when we play it. The most Paizo can do is write an outline, a plot without characters. A world without heroes.
It's our job as players to be those heroes, to write the characters, to drive the plots for the good or ill of the world. We decide how prevalent LGBT issues are in our world because we put them there. We decide if Alain is straight, gay, or just so narcissistic that he can only really love himself and the rest is just pandering to an image. We play in groups composed of hermaphroditic catgirls, bondage monks, the token het character, and gnolls who do donkey shows for fun and profit. The iconics don't have to be anything because they are the minority in this world: they were pregenned by those who made the world.
We are the majority. And we don't have descriptions to go by. We just are. And we are whatever we want to be.
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Maybe I'm sensing something that isn't there, but I'm sensing some defensiveness/combativeness in your post.
And I don't know why.Again, I'm extremely proud of the fact that Paizo has not shied away from this part of characters. And, while I note that you don't feel it's the right time to release more information about these characters, it doesn't stop me from wanting an iconic to come out.
As for using these characters as pregens in society play, I don't participate in society play. So, I didn't know that. Thank you for taking the time to explain it. Though, I do note that several of your characters -do- have backgrounds. If I were given Alain as a character, for example, I'd be just as likely to feel that I was playing someone else's character as if I were given a character who was flaming.
Regardless, it's not my intent to get in an arguement, just to express what I'd like to see.
If I'm defensive, it's because I do quite like all of our iconics... even the ones I pick on. And when I see folks complain about them... even as in this case when the complaints aren't ACTUALLY complaints but a desire for more information... I just get defensive.
That said... I'm actually curious. What iconics would you nominate as being bad choices as gay or lesbian because that would make them into stereotypes?
Personally i don't think there is such a thing as a bad choice. yeah i know the question wasn't directed at me. But Merisiel just for some reason to me comes of as Bi. I don't think they would be bad but there is two i can think of that would be less good. Amiri as a lesbian, I think she would come off to much of a man hating dyke. Then Alain for gay, cause he is already played up as a womanizer and I think saying he was a closet gay wouldn't be the best choice. But that's just me. Me personally I am hoping there is one gay, one les and one bi of each gender among the iconics at least. :)
Amiri isn't much better with the whole gung-ho barbarian-ness. Whining about how lesbians aren't all butch, whining about how she's not hot enough to be a lesbian, and the ever present "eeewww"
I think the naked slave boy chained at her feet in Kingmaker kinda argues in the strongest possible way against that assumption. ;)
What about iconics we would nominate as bad choices because it would make them seem like they were chosen just to break stereotypes?
That's exactly where I went, too. Avoiding 'bad' options because they'd enforce poor stereotypes is about as bad as choosing 'good' options because they'd break said stereotypes.
I say throw the dice and see where they land.
Amiri isn't much better with the whole gung-ho barbarian-ness. Whining about how lesbians aren't all butch, whining about how she's not hot enough to be a lesbian, and the ever present "eeewww"I think the naked slave boy chained at her feet in Kingmaker kinda argues in the strongest possible way against that assumption. ;)
Oh my...
Um... pics?
Hey the board censored me for saying a word that describes something to hold back water and can also be used to describe a more butch lesbian.
Dike is a water-retaining embankment, but 'dyke' means the latter.
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I have to say : when I see threads like this one ; when I see that this thread is not locked in oblivion as soon as he started ; when I see that people like James Jacobs take the time to come and say their opinion.. thanks Paizo.
That's exactly where I went, too. Avoiding 'bad' options because they'd enforce poor stereotypes is about as bad as choosing 'good' options because they'd break said stereotypes.
I say throw the dice and see where they land.
well then how about this:
Who's the bear?
Who's the twink?
Is one of the girls a goldilocks?
Domme/Dom?
Sub?
Switch?
What about iconics we would nominate as bad choices because it would make them seem like they were chosen just to break stereotypes?That's exactly where I went, too. Avoiding 'bad' options because they'd enforce poor stereotypes is about as bad as choosing 'good' options because they'd break said stereotypes.
I say throw the dice and see where they land.
Yep, I guess the only way to at least try to head off complaints would be to assign sexuality randomly, which would a) be a little ridiculous (particularly given that James said they already have a good idea of the character backgrounds), and b) generate complaints all their own. I doubt there's any method you could use that would come guaranteed complaint free. Perhaps a vote, so you could reach a consensus. But then, of course, the vocal minority would just shout the loudest in protest.
I say publish and be damned.
I am not particulary fond of the kind of positive discrimination toward gay sexuality or pretty much any other subject like that.
I dislike the call for the game I play to be politically correct and show that in obvious ways, I do not dislike such content, but the demand to include such elements can at some point hurt the fantasy element since every element has to be acceptably diverse and up to to modern standards.
I like a passive approach better, having it acknowledged and present, sometimes popping up in this or that product not shying away from more mature subjects has always been what made paizo's productions appealing to me.
Mr. Fishy's Bard is female and her penis...what? Mr. Fishy didn't started it. He just dropped a match...and a pint of oil.
It pretty much begins and end with the table. If the PG-13 game is too tame sexually abuse a PC in you home game. If you playing with your 10 nephew/niece PG may be the better option. Mr. Fishy has run games in which a NPC was discovered to be the sexual victim of her uncle and Mr. Fishy has run games with his guppies. Goblins were bad guys and they were fight to protect people. Mr. Fishy is ashamed to admit they owned Mr. Fishy's goblin horde, brutally.
Pokemon is a great example of a game written to be kid friendly with wanton violence. In Pokemon the critters fall unconscience but you can't catch them if they do. If you beat them half to death you tag them with a ball and you enslave them but if you beat them too hard you have to let them go........Pokemon is a sick game. Point is, No Pokemon DIE.
If Pokemon died, or God please exploded then the rating for the game would rise.
Basically play as you will at home and remember to account for your audience.
One more thing Erzen=Pedobear, Seriously creepy old man suddenly decides to leave the Home and "adventure" with a bunch of people a quarter his age...and his 1st level at 60, sure. Just saying seem suspect.
One more thing Erzen=Pedobear, Seriously creepy old man suddenly decides to leave the Home and "adventure" with a bunch of people a quarter his age...and his 1st level at 60, sure. Just saying seem suspect.
True Erzen is like the creepy old man from Family Guy.
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The problem isn't taboo topics in Pathfinder, the problem is taboo topics in the American society, which dictate what gaming companies publish and endorse (cref: succubus 3PP book incident).
G+$+~&n puritan rednecks.
Viva la Europa!
Erzen: You wanna lets cast deeper slumber and see who falls asleep first.
True Erzen is like the creepy old man from Family Guy.
One more thing Erzen=Pedobear, Seriously creepy old man suddenly decides to leave the Home and "adventure" with a bunch of people a quarter his age...and his 1st level at 60, sure. Just saying seem suspect.
But is he really 60? Or did he start looking old when he was young, like Patrick Stewart did in his 30s?
I could go for an iconic who went gray early and fast. It's one of those minorities you never think about until you're the one who starts finding gray hairs at 15 and goes white-haired by 30.
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Until i see a "book of erotic fanasty" i dont care about gay or straight, i dont care about sex period. until i see some stats for aids herpies etc.. sex may as well not exist in pathfinder. only a gm/writer who wants to, will even bring up the subject. so until there is a chance for my character to get a STD sex is just something you ellipsis.
just my 2 cents
Is one of the girls a goldilocks?Never heard that term before and honestly not much of a clue of what it could mean. I have a wild guess but only a wild guess.
It would be a straight girl who is hyper interested in Bears and the Bear sub culture. It would be a subpecies of a Beard or (derogatory term deleted) Hag.
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It would be a straight girl who is hyper interested in Bears and the Bear sub culture. It would be a subpecies of a Beard or (derogatory term deleted) Hag.Is one of the girls a goldilocks?Never heard that term before and honestly not much of a clue of what it could mean. I have a wild guess but only a wild guess.
I was way off and I am still not sure I get it. But I am no longer sure I want to know anymore. :)
Pokemon is a great example of a game written to be kid friendly with wanton violence. In Pokemon the critters fall unconscience but you can't catch them if they do. If you beat them half to death you tag them with a ball and you enslave them but if you beat them too hard you have to let them go........Pokemon is a sick game. Point is, No Pokemon DIE.
If Pokemon died, or God please exploded then the rating for the game would rise.
You know, as a parent watching my kids get into Pokemon back in the 90s, I was horrified by the very idea of the game. Making these cute little critters beat each other to **** for your enjoyment, whilst they lapped up their ongoing enslavement. And this was presented as a good thing, not something morally reprehensible that you had to stop. The moral implications of that worried me far more than issues of sexuality or nudity in roleplaying ever would. As I mentioned in another thread not a million miles away, 'aggression / violence good, sex / nudity bad' is the most deformed value system I can imagine.
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But is he really 60? Or did he start looking old when he was young, like Patrick Stewart did in his 30s?
Mr. Fish is almost positive that Erzen was written up and age advanced. Stat modifiers and all. Also in one of the chapter stories [APG maybe?] Valeros refers to him as an old man.
violence good sex
Yes it is...wait. What?
In fact I think it's sort of boring that none of the official races are at least asexual or a race that can easily shift between the two 'traditional' genders.
Lets have some more imagination in the core books.
I support this direction.
I challenge your idea of fantasy as being much to limited, it is easy to imagine non binary biological systems of reproduction.
In fact I think it's sort of boring that none of the official races are at least asexual or a race that can easily shift between the two 'traditional' genders.
Lets have some more imagination in the core books.
I will +1 this as well
I support this direction.In fact I think it's sort of boring that none of the official races are at least asexual or a race that can easily shift between the two 'traditional' genders.
Lets have some more imagination in the core books.
+1
+1I support this direction.In fact I think it's sort of boring that none of the official races are at least asexual or a race that can easily shift between the two 'traditional' genders.
Lets have some more imagination in the core books.
Yep, and another +1. Like the Culture novels, or Moorcock's Dancers at the End of Time sequence, where people get bored of their gender after a while and spend a few years as the opposite, or get to decide which they like best.
I'm not sure Golarion is really a good fit for that mindset though - perhaps one of the other planets where it could be presented as truly startling.
It would be a straight girl who is hyper interested in Bears and the Bear sub culture. It would be a subpecies of a Beard or (derogatory term deleted) Hag.Is one of the girls a goldilocks?Never heard that term before and honestly not much of a clue of what it could mean. I have a wild guess but only a wild guess.
Impossible! I've seen every beard known to man and a 'goldilocks' is no...
There's no place like home! There's no place like home! There's no place like home!
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I certainly don't want to be the curmudgeon here, but in nearly 30 years of gaming, other than the occasional "your romp with the bar wench turns into an encounter with a red widow" moment, I have never, nor have any of the people I've played with ever had to include something about the LBGT community, and nor did we miss it or think something was awry for not having it in our game?
I happen to have gamed with an open-marriage/swinger couple, 2 openly gay men, and even now a bisexual female. Its NEVER been an issue, and I don't really see why it needs to be, other than someone pushing an agenda in a passive/aggressive manner.
I support equality, and I support creativity, and I am not trying to imply anyone is doing anything wrong, whether that be in personal life or in Paizo gaming life, but seriously....can't we just beat trolls and orcs and goblins to death and plunder their ill gotten goods?
+1I support this direction.In fact I think it's sort of boring that none of the official races are at least asexual or a race that can easily shift between the two 'traditional' genders.
Lets have some more imagination in the core books.
Yep, and another +1. Like the Culture novels, or Moorcock's Dancers at the End of Time sequence, where people get bored of their gender after a while and spend a few years as the opposite, or get to decide which they like best.
I'm not sure Golarion is really a good fit for that mindset though - perhaps one of the other planets where it could be presented as truly startling.
Well, Distant Worlds will available next year, along with the Advanced Race Guide, and before those we'll get the third bestiary. Maybe one of the new races will fill the void.
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How about elves? They live for a loooooooong time and Mr. Fishy can tell the difference anyway.
That said... I'm actually curious. What iconics would you nominate as being bad choices as gay or lesbian because that would make them into stereotypes?
That would depend on just how broad and bad you consider "stereotypes" to be. I think you could make stereotypes for most iconic both ways. Frankly, I don't really care all that much, as iconics aren't likely to appear in my games.
BTW, I think the Jade Regent path (either in the player's guide or book 1) mentioned that for romance purposes, the major NPCs of the caravan can be treated as bisexual. I imagine that was done to allow PCs of either gender to have a romance as per the player preference, but I think that may be telling for how Pathfinder NPCs operate. I'd say it bothered me a lot less than, say, fluff snippets like what happened to Arazni or whatever ogres do to their victims (or each other) after a few litres of alcohol.
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Purely my opinion mind you that it should be overt so that folks of all orientations can be exposed to difference as well as being able to see similarities in "Iconic" figures in a hobby they engage in.
What you see as being "exposed to differences", I see as social engineering. In essence having an alternate lifestyle that I and many others do not condone or agree with, being shoved down our throats in the figurative and metaphorical sense.
My vote is to keep such political dynamite out of the game we all enjoy and let folks decide for themselves what to include or not include in their games.
This is precisely why Paizo is correct in letting the folks come up with what works for them in their own groups, rather than trying to walk the razor's edge of political correctness.
Purely my opinion mind you that it should be overt so that folks of all orientations can be exposed to difference as well as being able to see similarities in "Iconic" figures in a hobby they engage in.What you see as being "exposed to differences", I see as social engineering. In essence having an alternate lifestyle that I and many others do not condone or agree with, being shoved down our throats in the figurative and metaphorical sense.
OK but you do realize that your opinion on the subject is shaped by social engineering already. I am not trying to dismiss you or your opinion but if you want to use that term then we should apply it equally, to all the extant methods of social engineering operating in any given culture or society.
I can respect your position that art/entertainment should not be engaged in social engineering but I do disagree.
OK but you do realize that your opinion on the subject is shaped by social engineering already. I am not trying to dismiss you or your opinion but if you want to use that term then we should apply it equally, to all the extant methods of social engineering operating in any given culture or society.
If we go that way, the media always present some form of social behavior that is to be considered as acceptable. Thus, there always is some form of "social engineering" - the question is what, how prevalent, and how acceptable it is to not go by it.
Sorry for the digression. Back to a variation of James' Question, if they were going to address the issue with the iconics, or races that may have poly-amorous relationship structures, etc. Who's story could be interesting if there was an alternative lifestyle component to it. If it doesn't make their story interesting it probably shouldn't be brought up.
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Mr. Fishy is married to his Trollop and Mr. Fishy can assure everyone that married people are NOT having sex.