Without, y'know, casting spells.
access to unique abilities that defy the laws of physics. Theme appropriate of course.
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access to unique abilities that defy the laws of physics. Theme appropriate of course.
Agreed. Classic comic book superheroes are good sources of inspiration for this, since they rarely having anything that could be considered casting but often have ridiculous abilities.
If a player doesn't want supernatural abilities at high level, then they don't want high level.
Give them the ability to do certain actions in place of iterative attacks. Replacing the last attack with the ability to perform a standard or move equivalent action would help them a lot (any non-attacking action).
EVERYTHING. ALWAYS. JUST LIKE BARBARIAN AM DOING.
Seriously. For those who think that casters have all the fun and melee gets the left overs. Check out the barbarian.
Barbarian is the only melee that can stand up to a wizard and win. Check out this thread
Having a ritual magic mechanic would significantly help fix the caster/non-caster disparagency. Basically anyone can "cast" a spell through ritual if they have the proper combination of skills/abilities. It just takes longer and consumes more resources than traditional casting. It may take an hour to cast Bulls strength but at least a fighter could. Opens up all kinds of avenues for non-caster item creation and pre-fight buffing. Not to mention travel and other things. Each ritual should be unique and difficult to learn, but it puts a lot into play for non-caster BBEG preperation.
Having a ritual magic mechanic would significantly help fix the caster/non-caster disparagency. Basically anyone can "cast" a spell through ritual if they have the proper combination of skills/abilities. It just takes longer and consumes more resources than traditional casting. It may take an hour to cast Bulls strength but at least a fighter could. Opens up all kinds of avenues for non-caster item creation and pre-fight buffing. Not to mention travel and other things. Each ritual should be unique and difficult to learn, but it puts a lot into play for non-caster BBEG preperation.
I'd rather have a magic-item or artifact fulfill this need without adding a new mechanic. Rituals for non-casters doesn't seem thematic to me–just a disassociative way to give some cool powers to non-arcane/divine classes.
On the other hand, some sort of basic prestige classes open to fighters and rogues that offer a specific line of higher level abilities would fit since the background flavor can be tied to the choice of the PrC.
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My personal opinion is they need to do sweet things that are beyond mortal understanding without actually casting spells. As much as a lot of people would hate to hear it, Warriors from World of Warcraft would be an excellent example of the types of things that high level martial characters should be able to do. High level warriors do crazy stuff like...
Dive into swarms of enemies while swinging their 2-handed weapon around violently in a tornado motion for massive area of effect damage (and I do NOT mean Whirlwind Attack).
Deflect magic with a shield. In WoW, if a magician attempts to cast a targeted spell on a high level warrior, they can literally reflect the spell back at the caster, similar to a spell-turning (doesn't work for AoEs of course, but stuff like scorching ray, disintegrate, or hold person would be fair game).
Preform an unstoppable charge over a great distance. High level warriors in World of Warcraft can actually break out of snare effects such as entangle, being frozen, and across terrible terrain to get right to their foes. This would be like acting as if under the effects of freedom of movement when you preform a charge.
Damage over time effects. A fairly simple but effective option for warrior types should be the ability to pour on some heavy bleed damage or similar. If you can wound a foe so that they suffer 1d6/4 levels plus your strength modifier bleed damage, it at least gives them a way to force a foe to go on the defensive (ok, so now the mage is taking an average of damage every turn until they spend actions to use a cure light wounds potion or something, and casting a spell is DC 26 + spell level vs ongoing damage).
Delayed damage and conditions. Give them the option to delay the effects of a condition or even death for a round, which could give them a second chance versus such conditions. You get turned to stone? It takes longer to transmute your body. Stunned? You grin and bear being kicked in the cajones for six more seconds. Take a sword through the heart? You have 6 more seconds for the cleric to cast Heal on you before you're pushing daisies. You get slammed to -50 hit points and your Con is only 28? Get it with Hold Person? By crom you will not bow to this magic if you can help it (time to pop Freedom of Movement via your magic armor before the effect takes hold!).
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A few other ideas which are primarily inspired by Baldur's Gate II. Warrior classes in Baldur's Gate II could eventually gain abilities called Deathblow and Greater Deathblow, which literally outright kill enemies who are below a certain HD in a single shot. This would be akin to adding a save or die to attacks made against foes with 1/2 your hit dice or similar. It was a pretty awesome ability for carving through tons of mooks. I'd be careful about adding something like this though, since it could be very nasty in the hands of NPCs under the correct conditions (NPCs can get many more HD than PCs).
Having a ritual magic mechanic would significantly help fix the caster/non-caster disparagency. Basically anyone can "cast" a spell through ritual if they have the proper combination of skills/abilities. It just takes longer and consumes more resources than traditional casting. It may take an hour to cast Bulls strength but at least a fighter could. Opens up all kinds of avenues for non-caster item creation and pre-fight buffing. Not to mention travel and other things. Each ritual should be unique and difficult to learn, but it puts a lot into play for non-caster BBEG preperation.
I am in completely the opposite direction of you on this one. Actually, I would prefer it if regular spell casters had to ritually cast some of their more powerful spells. Teleport is a fine example. A standard action to travel hundreds of miles with your entire party is just ridiculous. Make it a 10 minute, or even hour long ritual and you're bridging the gap.
But that's for another thread. Here's what I'd like to see for martial characters:
-Traps viable for PCs. Seriously, there should be some good mechanics for the high level rogue to build some pretty damn lethal traps without ridiculous expenditure. If a mage can cast Rope Trick, Mansion, or whatever without any effort, why can't a Rogue take an hour or two and put up some really, really good traps around the camp?
-Make Fighters master of all things battle- not just the master of hitting things with a weapon hard. How about making "Fighter Level Checks" to learn about the tactics a group of enemies may make? This wouldn't work against some wild animals, but a good Fighter should be able to make inferences about what kind of strategy and tactics a disciplined group of enemies will be making based on things like their formation and gear.
Or how about having mechanics that grant bonuses for Fighters choosing the proper battleground location before hand , or building defensive fortifications, or simply preparing a proper camp?
-Martial classes shouldn't need feats to be able to do anything. So many feats just need to be always available rules options open to anyone. Unseat is the favorite example, but others (like Strike Back) immediately leap to mind. Heck, I personally would go so far as to make things like Power Attack and Weapon Finesse automatic available instead of being feats.
Along the same vein, we really, really need to cut back on feat chains and the like. The Sorcerer can take Overland Flight without having Fly, Levitate, or Feather Fall. But the Fighter can't take Whirlwind Attack without Dodge, Combat Expertise, Mobility, AND Spring Attack. It's obnoxious. And I know Spell Sunder has gotten a lot of Barbarian love lately, and I must agree it is awesome. But I have to ask the question, why must I be a Superstitious Witch Hunter in order to use Spell Sunder?
-Martial classes should have limited access to supernatural abilities without having to do ridiculous multiclassing. One of my favorite ideas is the ability to converse with a single type of animal. It would be a flavorful and useful ability if my Beast Totem Barbarian could talk to dogs. Why can't I do that without becoming a spell caster? I mean these can be anything, really. Maybe you have an attunement to undead and can sense their unnatural presence nearby. Or maybe you have some orc blood in your veins from really, really far down the line, and you gained Darkvision. etc, etc... I would much rather have the option to take a feat to let me speak to dogs than to have a feat that let's me knock people off a horse if I hit them really hard.
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I guess these are more "what martial characters of all levels" need, but they get these things, and they scale appropriately they should have plenty of things to stay interesting at higher levels aside from magical items.
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Martial characters should have the means to be fantastic in a fantasy setting without needing a caster to set them up. Caster's shouldn't be the gatekeepers of Awesome. Each martial character should have their own brand of Awesome available that they can achieve through their own class abilities and theme, whether it's impossibly brutal training; blessings from their patron deities/spirits; mastery of their own mind, body, and soul; achieving enlightenment; or overclocking their fighting spirit.
While I don't think martial characters should be dependant on ritual/incantation magic, I do think they should have a place in the game since it feels more like literary magic, can get everyone involved, and provides a good source of folk magic that potentially anyone could dabble in, if they have the appropriate skill for it.
I agree with the notion that giving watered-down magic to non-magic users is not the answer.
-Make Fighters master of all things battle- not just the master of hitting things with a weapon hard. How about making "Fighter Level Checks" to learn about the tactics a group of enemies may make? This wouldn't work against some wild animals, but a good Fighter should be able to make inferences about what kind of strategy and tactics a disciplined group of enemies will be making based on things like their formation and gear.
This suggestion particularly reminded me of a character named Elliot on the TV show Leverage, who is consistently identifying possible enemy combatants based on specifically identified traits: "It's a very distinctive {hairstyle/gait/sound (referencing bullets)/stance/posture/etc.}"
This would be a good feature for Fighters to be able to develop.
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I'd say be masters of their trade, lead armies, raise kingdoms, go on interesting and epic adventures and be pretty tough. Nothing physics defying unless that's the purpose of the class as a whole (say, monk for instance) and keep them grounded.
Let them rely on useful magical gear and work together as a group to succeed at difficult challenges. They got to high level after all so they've probably got some good stuff, made some awesome friends and a lot of enemies along the way.
Seriously. For those who think that casters have all the fun and melee gets the left overs. Check out the barbarian.
Barbarian is the only melee that can stand up to a wizard and win. Check out this thread
This point deserves being repeated.
I'd like to see the elimination of the Christmas tree effect. On the other hand, while I hate the "fighters can't have nice things" problem, it's largely overblown by GMs playing softball with wizards. As long as GMs play softball with a class, no amount of stuff going to other classes will make them equal.
Another perspective on the Fighters vs. Wizards debate. I find this much more believable than the Wizard Win Button.
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Move and full attack, nothing less, nothing more. The holdover from 3.5 having melees only get 1 attack after move leaves them nerfed from 6 onwards, and makes melee monsters much less threatening as well. Yes, I know yOu can get pounce, but charge is so easily disrupted as to make this option fairly useless as well. And vital strike is a joke when very little of your damage actually comes from base weapon.
Archers can keep up / be amazing at high, especially now that cluster shot gets around that DR problem.
I think they have AC and power, even without as many options as Mage-types. Full attack after move would also make the otherwise awful two-weapon combat a viable option, and pump weaker classes like monk and rogue.
While I don't think martial characters should be dependant on ritual/incantation magic, I do think they should have a place in the game since it feels more like literary magic, can get everyone involved, and provides a good source of folk magic that potentially anyone could dabble in, if they have the appropriate skill for it.
That's what I meant. You just put it far more eloquently than I.
Now I agree that a lot of the melee classes need help at the high levels when compared to casters. However, I will point out some of the awesomeness that barbarians can do at high levels which fits into what you all want to see in a high level melee character.
Barbarians have:
Superstition - Ridiculousness saves. Up there with the monk and the paladin
Str Surge - Add my level to any CMB or CMD check 1/rage
Beast totem tree - natural armor, natural attacks (d8 claws), and POUNCE
Clear mind - reroll a will save 1/rage
Come and Get Me - Make an AoO everytime some one attacks you, 1AoO/attack. This can give you 5 extra attacks at full BAB.
Ghost Rager - Do normal damage to incorporeal creatures and add superstition bonus (can be as high as +13) to touch AC
DR - Invulnerable rager has DR10/- and DR20/- against non-lethal damage
Knockdown/Knockback - make bullrush/trip attacks with any weapon as part of an attack
Spell Sunder - Sunder check to dispel any spell 1/rage
Unexpected strike - make an AoO when someone takes a 5ft step 1/rage
Now alot of the barbarians power are 1/rage, but at lvl 17 (or earlier if you become immune to fatigue) you can rage cycle and each of these powers is now 1/round.
I felt like the concept of Tomb of Battle handled this nicely, but unfortunately the terrible execution(balance, power cards, grammar, and the like) left it nigh unusable.
*Edit*
Wanted to add that I am a big fan of some of the ninja abilities. They are certainly a step in the right direction and I hope we see some more supernatural abilities along these lines.
While I don't think martial characters should be dependant on ritual/incantation magic, I do think they should have a place in the game since it feels more like literary magic, can get everyone involved, and provides a good source of folk magic that potentially anyone could dabble in, if they have the appropriate skill for it.That's what I meant. You just put it far more eloquently than I.
An example of a good ritual is in one of the 3.5 books the name of which escapes me.
Basically you need certain skill ranks and knowledge of the ritual.
You and a certain amount of people sit in this sweat lodge while you tell the story of a great warrior (which takes a certain amount of time and requires some checks). At the culmination of the story the sweat lodge catches fire and instantly burns to the ground. The participants then find themselves on the Nortic Plane of battle. Essentially it's a stylized plane shift and I absolutely LOVE the flavor. I imagine stuff like this that accomplishes other Magic things, but is harder and more time consuming.
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An example of a good ritual is in one of the 3.5 books the name of which escapes me.
Basically you need certain skill ranks and knowledge of the ritual.
You and a certain amount of people sit in this sweat lodge while you tell the story of a great warrior (which takes a certain amount of time and requires some checks). At the culmination of the story the sweat lodge catches fire and instantly burns to the ground. The participants then find themselves on the Nortic Plane of battle. Essentially it's a stylized plane shift and I absolutely LOVE the flavor. I imagine stuff like this that accomplishes other Magic things, but is harder and more time consuming.
I believe that is here.
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I believe that is here.An example of a good ritual is in one of the 3.5 books the name of which escapes me.
Basically you need certain skill ranks and knowledge of the ritual.
You and a certain amount of people sit in this sweat lodge while you tell the story of a great warrior (which takes a certain amount of time and requires some checks). At the culmination of the story the sweat lodge catches fire and instantly burns to the ground. The participants then find themselves on the Nortic Plane of battle. Essentially it's a stylized plane shift and I absolutely LOVE the flavor. I imagine stuff like this that accomplishes other Magic things, but is harder and more time consuming.
That's it! Thank you.
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Effective Level: 6th
Skill Check: Knowledge (arcana) DC 20, 2 successes; Perform (oratory) DC 20, 4 successes
Failure: 5d6 points of fire damage to caster
Components: V, S, M, SC, B
Casting Time: 60 minutes
Range: Touch
Target or Targets: Caster plus four to twelve other creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) (DC 16 + caster’s Cha modifier)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Hrothgar’s journey is an incantation based on the tale of Hrothgar, a powerful barbarian hero from ages past. When the poetic epic of Hrothgar is recited in the stifling heat of a sweat lodge during the winter solstice, the orator and his listeners receive the same final reward that Hrothgar did: a one-way trip to Ysgard’s plain of Ida, where they can drink and make merry with the greatest warriors of myth.
To cast the incantation, the caster must construct a small, windowless hut in the middle of the forest, then build a bonfire in the hut’s center. At least four and up to twelve others accompany the caster into the hut. Then the flames are lit and the telling of the tale of Hrothgar begins.
Because the bonfire is large and the hut is small, the atmosphere inside quickly gets stiflingly hot. This is the incantation’s backlash; unlike most backlash components, it affects the incantation’s other targets as well as the caster. Any creature inside the hut must make a Fortitude save every 10 minutes or suffer the effects of severe heat (as described in Heat Dangers).
Just as the tale of Hrothgar approaches its conclusion (near the end of the casting time), the bonfire’s flames light the hut on fire, which creates a great deal of smoke but no additional heat or damage. If the final skill check succeeds, the flames consume the hut’s roof and walls, revealing the plain of Ida on the plane of Asgard.
Material Component
A windowless, thatched hut in a forest.
Backlash Component
Severe heat.
Extra Casters
Four required; they provide the dialogue for other characters in the epic of Hrothgar.
Campaign Use
Hrothgar’s journey is well within the reach of mid-level PCs, especially bards. Of all the Outer Planes, Ysgard is perhaps the most hospitable to PCs and the easiest to work into an ongoing campaign, so the incantation may be a good way to whet the players’ appetite for planar travel without opening up the entire cosmology. In the hands of NPCs, Hrothgar’s journey can be an escape route for the barbarian raiders the characters have been chasing for months. Or a mischievous NPC bard can beckon the PCs into a warm hut on a cold winter’s night, promising them a wondrous reward if they just listen to a tale…
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I'd like to see the elimination of the Christmas tree effect. On the other hand, while I hate the "fighters can't have nice things" problem, it's largely overblown by GMs playing softball with wizards. As long as GMs play softball with a class, no amount of stuff going to other classes will make them equal.
I've never really understood why they were supposed to be equal in the end. They certainly aren't equal in the beginning after all.
Why should a guy wielding two feet of steel be able to do the same amount of stuff as someone who can stop time, summon swarms of monsters and alter the way people thing should?
It's a game so I suppose there is an amount of balance assumed but I guess the tricks to 'turn off' a spell caster are kind of cheap if used all the time. "Okay, another anti-magic zone is in this room too? Great..."
I think a bit of the problem might be the change in how long it takes to prepare higher level spells from older editions. Preparing a ninth level spell used to be an effort, not just something you did with everything else. :)
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I think the following really needs to be emphasized: If you are above ~ level 6 you are already, to some extent, supernatural. If you are above level 10 you are considered a legend (see Legend Lore, the spell).
This means that the dude wielding 2 feet of steel is not really just a dude with two feet of steel, but rather a supernatural being of immense power that just happens to use 2 feet of steel as his focus.
To me, there is absolutely no reason that a level 11+ feat could not be something crazy like "once per round when you attack you can treat that attack as having reach as a wave of kinetic energy explodes outward toward your target." This would be (Su), but still not spells.
My personal opinion is they need to do sweet things that are beyond mortal understanding without actually casting spells. As much as a lot of people would hate to hear it, Warriors from World of Warcraft would be an excellent example of the types of things that high level martial characters should be able to do. High level warriors do crazy stuff like...
Dive into swarms of enemies while swinging their 2-handed weapon around violently in a tornado motion for massive area of effect damage (and I do NOT mean Whirlwind Attack).
Deflect magic with a shield. In WoW, if a magician attempts to cast a targeted spell on a high level warrior, they can literally reflect the spell back at the caster, similar to a spell-turning (doesn't work for AoEs of course, but stuff like scorching ray, disintegrate, or hold person would be fair game).
Preform an unstoppable charge over a great distance. High level warriors in World of Warcraft can actually break out of snare effects such as entangle, being frozen, and across terrible terrain to get right to their foes. This would be like acting as if under the effects of freedom of movement when you preform a charge.
Damage over time effects. A fairly simple but effective option for warrior types should be the ability to pour on some heavy bleed damage or similar. If you can wound a foe so that they suffer 1d6/4 levels plus your strength modifier bleed damage, it at least gives them a way to force a foe to go on the defensive (ok, so now the mage is taking an average of damage every turn until they spend actions to use a cure light wounds potion or something, and casting a spell is DC 26 + spell level vs ongoing damage).
Delayed damage and conditions. Give them the option to delay the effects of a condition or even death for a round, which could give them a second chance versus such conditions. You get turned to stone? It takes longer to transmute your body. Stunned? You grin and bear being kicked in the cajones for six more seconds. Take a sword through the heart? You...
In my homebrew, I'm working essentially at this, plus reworking domains and schools, and dividing class features in a way combat does not steal to non-combat.
Every class has something magic, but the more mundane ones only have a bigger control over equipment and are the best weapon and armor crafters (fighters) or have old abilities merged and reworked (rogues steals things froms PrCs).
Now I agree that a lot of the melee classes need help at the high levels when compared to casters. However, I will point out some of the awesomeness that barbarians can do at high levels which fits into what you all want to see in a high level melee character.
Barbarians have:
Superstition - Ridiculousness saves. Up there with the monk and the paladin
Str Surge - Add my level to any CMB or CMD check 1/rage
Beast totem tree - natural armor, natural attacks (d8 claws), and POUNCE
Clear mind - reroll a will save 1/rage
Come and Get Me - Make an AoO everytime some one attacks you, 1AoO/attack. This can give you 5 extra attacks at full BAB.
Ghost Rager - Do normal damage to incorporeal creatures and add superstition bonus (can be as high as +13) to touch AC
DR - Invulnerable rager has DR10/- and DR20/- against non-lethal damage
Knockdown/Knockback - make bullrush/trip attacks with any weapon as part of an attack
Spell Sunder - Sunder check to dispel any spell 1/rage
Unexpected strike - make an AoO when someone takes a 5ft step 1/rageNow alot of the barbarians power are 1/rage, but at lvl 17 (or earlier if you become immune to fatigue) you can rage cycle and each of these powers is now 1/round.
It seems that lab rat is on some people's ignore, so repeating this point as well. Barbarians get to do some amazing things, without having it come across as just some spells that they can cast. I would really like to see fighter's get some fighter only feats that did some cooler stuff.
There is blood in my hands there is blood in my eyes
With blood in my voice I scream as you die
Thirsting for vengeance and mounds of the slain
Shaking the forest onto the plain
Fierce is my blade fierce is my hate born to die in battle
I laugh at my fate
Now pay in blood when your blood has been spilled
You're never forgiven death is fulfilled !
The clash of honor calls to stand when others fall
Gods of war feel the power of my sword
THAT is what a high-level martial should do... perform feats of physical and martial prowess far beyond what mortal men can do. And they shouldn't have to rely on wizards and clerics to do it. To make them even better... yes. But not rely on them to do appropriate amounts of damage and have an AC that matters. Or to reach their enemies.
Part of it should be mechanics. A fighter should have amazing jumping capability, speed and reactions. His sword should cleave through dragon wings, while his grip should be like sovereign glue on it's back. Anybody who has played Dawn of War knows about the sync-kills, where the Force Commander leaps into the air to smack a Bloodthirster around before sending it to the ground. Fighters should be able to do that to a balor.
The other part... should be a change in the base assumptions about encounters. Instead of a flat plain where the dragon is unreachable by anybody who can't teleport onto it's back, it should take place beside a cliff the fighter can fling himself off of. Terrain elements should allow him to vault off a crumbling balcony in the ruins onto it. Rules for sharing spaces should allow a fighter to attack it while on it's back.
It seems that lab rat is on some people's ignore, so repeating this point as well. Barbarians get to do some amazing things, without having it come across as just some spells that they can cast. I would really like to see fighter's get some fighter only feats that did some cooler stuff.
No prob. I just wanted to throw it out there as an example of the kind of supernatural abilities that melee classes could have (and that barbarians do have). Nothing says melee juggernaut like sundering a prismatic wall spell with a hammer and force of will.