|
Just because 'leveling' stops doesn't mean you can't continue having rewarding adventures. I guess I just don't seeing leveling as the purpose of an RPG.
Yes, but most people seem to expect it. The ones who can just pick their preferred level and tell their story without ever advancing seem to be rare. Otherwise you'd see a lot more 'this is a 6th level game' advertisements.
No one said he lied. However, we all miscall things, much less things months back that you can not recall who said it or when they said it or in what context.
James , Erik and even Vic have said many times, across a dozen or more threads high level adventures do not sale as well. James even stated that high level adventures where in less demand in Dungeon. That is one of the first links you can find.
Nightmare Keep was indeed one of the high level ones, as was the Rod of Seven Parts.
Nightmare Keep was in Cormyr, where you're taking on this lich in a super-maze as she's making a horde of tiny lich-bugs to gather souls for her and stuff. It opens up by dumping you into an acidic pit with the bodies of the mercenary company that came before you floating around in it.
I seem to remember a FR module about an epic drow cleric of their goddess of undeath researching an undead horde spell, and you have to go down and waste her. No idea where I saw it, however...I do remember it was a pretty epic underground journey, however. Stone Giants and a raft over a lake come to mind...
===Aelryinth
Nightmare Keep was indeed one of the high level ones, as was the Rod of Seven Parts.
Nightmare Keep was in Cormyr, where you're taking on this lich in a super-maze as she's making a horde of tiny lich-bugs to gather souls for her and stuff. It opens up by dumping you into an acidic pit with the bodies of the mercenary company that came before you floating around in it.
I seem to remember a FR module about an epic drow cleric of their goddess of undeath researching an undead horde spell, and you have to go down and waste her. No idea where I saw it, however...I do remember it was a pretty epic underground journey, however. Stone Giants and a raft over a lake come to mind...
===Aelryinth
City of the Spider Queen. Yup, another high-level one. Funny how the list keeps growing, huh?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
City of the Spider Queen. Yup, another high-level one. Funny how the list keeps growing, huh?Nightmare Keep was indeed one of the high level ones, as was the Rod of Seven Parts.
Nightmare Keep was in Cormyr, where you're taking on this lich in a super-maze as she's making a horde of tiny lich-bugs to gather souls for her and stuff. It opens up by dumping you into an acidic pit with the bodies of the mercenary company that came before you floating around in it.
I seem to remember a FR module about an epic drow cleric of their goddess of undeath researching an undead horde spell, and you have to go down and waste her. No idea where I saw it, however...I do remember it was a pretty epic underground journey, however. Stone Giants and a raft over a lake come to mind...
===Aelryinth
Yeah. And if we throw in BECMI conversions, it could get silly quick.
===Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*I* need epic content. My players are 14th level, and I don't plan to stop until around 25-30 at least.Then I suggest you start yourself cracking. No matter what happens I don't see it likely that you're going to see a stream of 20+ level modules from Paizo... EVER. Even TSR and WOTC COMBINED only cranked out 4 or so at 18 or higher... and that's counting everything from 1st to 3rd edition. The only ones I can remember, are the Bloodstone series which had ONE module for 18-"100" (sort of)for 1st Edition, and Isle of the Ape which was an 18th level mod for 3.0.
As gbone said, I want a 20+ level ruleset. I have no issue generating stories and adventures for my players utilizing said ruleset.
And I'm no stranger to using an epic ruleset to its fullest. I'd just prefer to utilize a great one designed by Paizo than the poor one from WotC.
I would be in favor of a epic level book. Not so much for the "set rules" but for ideas that I hadn't thought of before. I never really remember anyone I've gamed with going off the standard idea of a character. If somebody goes of the idea that a fighter can only be a muscular guy in big armor carrying a big sword, then I would suggest 4th edition. It would be my opinion to do something along the lines of the complete series in 3.5, just add epic progression to the classes. This would give variants for all levels of gamers. And I do agree that it is up to the DM to control the game. No matter what level you are playing at, it is possible to have out of control power gaming.
|
I'm in a 3.5 campaign that's nearing epic territory (levels 19-20 in the party) and we're all starting to debate whether we want to continue beyond 20. The GM is bringing the current campaign to a nice stopping--huge battle with the big evil boss next session--but says he can put together a new epic plot line if we want to go on. Personally I find the high level play to be too much like a superhero game. It's interesting in it's own way, but I think that mid-level play is more engaging for me. You're not afraid of large rats anymore, but there are plenty of big challenges ahead. I probably won't run my current Pathfinder campaign up into epic territory, but I would likely buy the "Ultimate Epic" book (or whatever it gets called) just for ideas. Who knows, I might find the Pathfinder epic book drawing me in. We'll see.
Everyone likes different play. After running one high-level campaign, I'm looking forward to starting the next one, even though this one won't be finishing for some time yet.
Other people feel the "sweet spot" is something like levels 5-9. To each their own.
|
If anyone wants to take a chance with it, Little Red Goblin Games came out with their own epic level progression. It's called Legendary Levels
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel the opposite; I think that NOT having Post 20+ rules for Pathfinder PUTS a nail into it's coffin. My table, already on our FOURTH campaign now is getting tired of having to stop playing at level 20.
But, as a person who would like epic rules as long as they're far different from the 3.5 crap and is otherwise fine with just 20 levels (because, I say, the numbers can be and are fun, but they're nothing against the fluff), AND as a GM who doesn't use the XP system but rather makes the characters advance when he feels that the players have truly had all the fun they could from a given level, I'd ask you: except maybe for campaign reasons (like you became the overgods of your worlds and had nothing more to do) why did you have to stop? Just because you won't add a new level, it doesn't mean you have to trash a character sheet as soon as 19 switches to 20, or just do a boss battle at 20th level and then adieu. Actually, that could be where the fun starts, rather than end, despite not increasing in level anymore.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with epic levels is that the existing system begins to break down well before you get to 20th level. So unless the solution to epic levels is to basically switch to an entirely different (and non-d20-based) system, epic-level play is going to have some major problems.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Brothers I have seen a disturbing trend of late. Join me! WE must stop this vile threat of Necromancy! Or at lest make sure it has a sexy outfit."
The problem with epic levels is that the existing system begins to break down well before you get to 20th level. So unless the solution to epic levels is to basically switch to an entirely different (and non-d20-based) system, epic-level play is going to have some major problems.
Just needed to chime in here and say that some people think the existing system begins to break down and some people think that the only solution is to create a whole new system.
There are other people who, based on years of experience, entirely disagree with statement of such things as factual rather than opinion.
Just sayin' :)
Higher level does not make it epic. I can run an epic game and never go above 12th level or 6th if I want to.
Higher level does not make it epic. I can run an epic game and never go above 12th level or 6th if I want to.
Hence my typical careful avoidance of the word 'epic' in most posts, for just that reason, regardless of the fact that "epic" has a very specific denotation in the 3.0, 3.5 and even Pathfinder rule set (look for DR/epic if you don't believe me).
Someone can always chime in and say "oh yeah?? well my level 11 game is epic!!"
It makes no sense for someone to chime in and say "oh yeah?? well my level 11 game is level 21+!" :)
@Gorbacz: Combat? Who's talking about combat? :)
I really doubt you can have the same emotion of epic play at level 6 than 21+, its not the same to have a house in the woods than a floating castle that can defend itself or have a plot to convince a major than a god
I really doubt you can have the same emotion of epic play at level 6 than 21+, its not the same to have a house in the woods than a floating castle that can defend itself or have a plot to convince a major than a god
But the point is, you see, those things you mentioned are fluff, not numbers. You can make epic fluff even at 1st level, or you could twist fluff so that you're a 1st level Fighter God. You are immortal and can't be harmed by mortals (whose stats and numbers won't matter the slightiest). And look, your sheet says you only have 14 hp. The same as what a normal 1st level character is compared to a normal ant.
Yet some people are desperate for those numbers that will bring them beyond the normal 20th level, changing nothing in the fluff that they couldn't have changed themselves without trouble. Ideally, I too want those numbers, but in truth they are all except necessary, despite someone desperately trying to sell that idea.
I really doubt you can have the same emotion of epic play at level 6 than 21+, its not the same to have a house in the woods than a floating castle that can defend itself or have a plot to convince a major than a godBut the point is, you see, those things you mentioned are fluff, not numbers. You can make epic fluff even at 1st level, or you could twist fluff so that you're a 1st level Fighter God. You are immortal and can't be harmed by mortals (whose stats and numbers won't matter the slightiest). And look, your sheet says you only have 14 hp. The same as what a normal 1st level character is compared to a normal ant.
Yet some people are desperate for those numbers that will bring them beyond the normal 20th level, changing nothing in the fluff that they couldn't have changed themselves without trouble. Ideally, I too want those numbers, but in truth they are all except necessary, despite someone desperately trying to sell that idea.
but what is the point or satisfaction of start as level 1 fighter god, I think is better start as level 1 fighter and gain experience (not just XP) and rewards and become a god 20+ level, then the fighter is a god because he won it and not just because the GM say "you're a god".
At least for me the fluff is better doing with rules, and yes I want numbers too. I like to see stats for the gods and similar entities, that the PCs can reach
I'm a relatively new poster here, though I've been lurking for since about 2 years ago when I was lured into PF after a long hiatus from tabletop.
Put my vote down (for what it counts) for Epic / High Level game play books. Please note, I'd much rather vote with my dollar and do intend to purchase any modules or source books that offer 18th+ level of play.
One reason I've hesitated in joining PFS is because it stops at 13th level, which is what I normally consider the lower end of a fun character or group.
-TimD
Don't forget that advancement is an incremental thing. Or it is in the games I run.
With an exception for a late player, we don't have anyone who sat at the table and created a 40th-level character. They did start at level 6. But then they were 7, then 8, etc. We've just been doing it for a long time.
When A PC is level X, level X+1 really isn't all that different, even when it's the jump from level 20 to level 21; all that happens there (using the 3.5e rules) is that your BAB and Saves normalize and you have new feats available.
Not really that shocking of a transition no matter what X is, and the same incremental change happens as your level increases.
In fact, I found the most tremendous ramp in power happened in the stretch from levels 12-20. The PCs are gaining crazy new powers and spells during that time. After level 20, it kinda settled down. A lot.
In my opinion (and it is just my opinion, and that's just because of the kind of feel I like in my games), a game where you start as a brand new character with a power equal to or greater than a level 20 character is an entirely different experience than a game where you fought your way up to that point step by step.
The problem with epic levels is that the existing system begins to break down well before you get to 20th level. So unless the solution to epic levels is to basically switch to an entirely different (and non-d20-based) system, epic-level play is going to have some major problems.
I agree and I think that's what should be done.
At further risk of being flamed, I think that it should be a post-20 alternate advancement system... something that many MMOs have looked into and implemented very well.
Some of us consider it the upper end of where all class types still remain equally viable for play and the fighters don't serve as cheerleaders to the all mighty casters.
So you don't want 20+ rules because you think martial class are futile past 12 level?
There are issues with the system past level 12. some small some massive and going past 20 just makes it worse.
|
That said, I'm in no rush for a post-20 core book as there are so many things I want covered before that. Don't get me wrong, I eventually would like to see core books detailing in-game world management, taking over a planar metropolis, and deicide (especially deicide), but first...
- 300+ page steampunk book
- 300+ page scifi/space opera book
- post-apocalypse sourcebook
- modern sourcebook
- a 'pure' magic variant (no arcane/divine/psionic/etc. just magic) sourcebook
- 300+ page dramatic/romance/mystery/horror/non-combat guidebook (complete with tables...)
- more bestiaries
This.
I dont need rules for 21+, We already never go past level 15. lol
I find myself wanting more ways and content to run Pathfinder as low-fantasy; Conan-Style, far more than I'm interested in campaigns where youre in a medieval fantasy world playing as superheroes and killing the gods to take their stuff.
Also,
double negative in the title... she does need epic content
Or possibly, she wants the rules for levels 1-20 scrapped, and would prefer to have all games start at epic levels. lol.
Ah, Grammar.
Ah, Grammar.
WE HAS GRAMMAR CRACKERS. THEY BE GOOD.
|
I rather see Epic rules. Sure I can use the bare bones one in the core book. Or the Epic Level Book from Wotc yet I think it's needed. Both 3.5 and 4E allow you the option of high level play. Like everything else no one has to use them but at least you have the choice. Not to mention I'm getting tired of reading up in the Bestary and other products of high level mosnters such as Demon and Devil lords yet Paizo cannot stat them up because of them not having Epic rules.
There should be rules to support over-the top beings. The kind that can wipe a city, or topple a mountain. There are fantasy books about such things, movies, comics... some people want to create rule-compliant crunch for such things, such as DMs making Sauron ripoffs, or anime fans trying to emulate their favorites including scale.
It's not about the "+77 to hit" business. It's about being able to create big, grand scenes of truly earth-shaking strength and apocalyptic magic.
PF isn't really "complete" until there exists the means to emulate your favorite fantasy tales, myths and legends... including the grand-scale ones.
That is called level 20. By that point you are more powerful then superman really, wizards can shatter worlds, build demi-plans and all around play god. Melee classes can lay waste to armies, naked.
High level pathfinder has left fantasy behind and entered super-hero land.
|
|
Does no one listen to Pink Floyd anymore?
Oh. Now I've gotten the reference.
I dont really like Pink Floyd. or the Beatles, for that matter, so while I've heard their songs, I dont pick up references unless someone points them out to me.
Rolling Stones are pretty good though. As is Zeppelin. Personally if I'm listening to older music, I'll gravitate toward those, or some Iron Maiden or something.
|
|
In X-man 3, Magneto lifts the Golden Gate bridge up into the air.
In Secret Wars, Molecule Man lifts an entire mountain range.
What level does a Wizard need to be to do those things?
Those things could be very high level spells. Or High level spells with expensive components.
But if I wanted to emulate superheroes I'd be doing it in a game of Superheroes. Maybe M&M, or Aberrant, or Unisystem's "Beyond Human", once it comes out.
|
|
I don't care much for them either, I just like making song lyric references in common conversation. :)
Ah. I see. I tried to do that a few times back in highschool, but nobody got the references I made except for a couple rocker/metalhead friends I had, so I stopped using song quotes in speech. It just isnt as fun when nobody gets the references. lol.