| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Polearm Master fighter archtype gains the ability of Sweeping Fend at level 13. It reads:
Sweeping Fend (Ex)At 13th level, a polearm master can use any spear or pole arm to make a bull rush or trip maneuver, though he takes a –4 penalty to his CMB when making such attempts. Weapons with the trip property do not incur this penalty on trip maneuvers.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 3.
Does this mean that you normally can't make a trip maneuver with a polearm? Or is the penalty normally greater than -4?
If you can't normally make a trip maneuver with a polearm, why do some CRB polearms have the trip property? The Polearm Master archtype didn't appear until the APG.
You don't need a trip weapon to perform a trip maneuver, and I can't find anything in the rulebook which says you can't make a trip maneuver (or bull rush for that matter) with a polearm.
1) You cannot normally make a trip attempt with any weapon, unless it has the trip property.
2) The Sweeping Fend ability lets the polearm master achetype make trip attempts with any spear or polearm, even ones that don't have the trip property.
3) A normal trip or bull rush attempt is not made with a weapon, which means you cannot take advantage of any other weapon properties while doing so (namely reach to avoid attacks of opportunity). Core Rulebook, pg. 145 for the trip property, pg. 199 for the bull rush special attack, and pg. 201 for the trip special attack; note that both bull rush and trip state "in place of [the/a] melee attack."
1) You cannot normally make a trip attempt with any weapon, unless it has the trip property.
...
3) A normal trip or bull rush attempt is not made with a weapon
How do you make a trip attempt without a weapon? Chapter 6 indicates that you can only trip with a weapon which has the trip property, which an unarmed strike does not, and nothing in the unarmed strike section or the trip section seems to indicate otherwise. I seem to recall you could do unarmed trips in 3.5, but (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't see anything making it possible in Pathfinder.
How do you make a trip attempt without a weapon?1) You cannot normally make a trip attempt with any weapon, unless it has the trip property.
...
3) A normal trip or bull rush attempt is not made with a weapon
Do a legsweep to kick your opponent's feet out from under them? Reach down, grab the back of their knee and pull? It's narrative details like this that are not explicitly detailed under the system mechanics. In addition to these regular trip attempts, some weapons (usually with a curved shape or a hook) are suitable for attempting something similar.
How do you make a trip attempt without a weapon?
If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No. Note that when making a trip combat maneuver, you don't need to use a weapon at all--for example, you can trip when you're unarmed, even though unarmed strike isn't listed as a trip weapon.
There are advantages to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver. One, if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone. Two, you can apply the weapon's enhancement bonus, weapon-specific attack bonuses such as Weapon Focus, and so on to your trip combat maneuver roll.
For example, you'd add the enhancement bonus from a +5 whip to your trip combat maneuver roll because a whip is a trip weapon. You wouldn't add the enhancement bonus from a +5 longsword to your trip combat maneuver roll because a longsword is not a trip weapon. In effect, there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt.
—Sean K Reynolds, 03/15/11
FAQIf you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No.
Thank you for referencing the FAQ Grick. I think a lot of people have the misconception that a trip weapon is required to make a trip maneuver. As the FAQ clearly states, you can use any weapon to perform a trip maneuver.
And this brings us back to my original post/question. If a trip weapon is not required to perform a trip maneuver, then what is the purpose of this Extraordinary Ability that the Polearm Archtype gets at level 13?
In fact, if anything the Polearm Master takes a penalty when using this ability that they otherwise would not have. At level 12 they can perform a trip maneuver with any polearm, but at level 13 they take a -4? Where's the logic in that?
As the FAQ clearly states, you can use any weapon to perform a trip maneuver.
Not really.
"there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt."
The same would be said of a Lance. There's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a Lance because the lance doesn't help you make the trip attempt.
If a trip weapon is not required to perform a trip maneuver, then what is the purpose of this Extraordinary Ability that the Polearm Archtype gets at level 13?
It allows the Polearm Master to not only use his Lance to trip, but he gains the Lance enhancement bonus, weapon training, weapon focus, and other bonuses to his Trip combat maneuver roll, and he can perform it at reach.
Because, as also listed in the above explanation, you get to add all your weapon accuracy enhancements to the attack. Someone with a +3 weapon with the trip quality will have an additional +3 to his CMB to the trip attempt.
Yes, but at a -4 penalty. The sum total is -1 (+3 weapon, -4 penalty). However at level 12, before the fighter gains this ability, he can make the trip attempt without a -4 penalty, and without the weapon bonus. The sum total is 0 in this case.
Why should the player take a penalty at level 13 which they didn't have at level 12?
You take the penalty so you can drop the weapon. And you can trip at range.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
First, Bull Rushes are not normally made with weapons unless specified otherwise (such as in Sweeping Fend). This is unlike Disarm, Trip or Sunder which imply weapons can be used in their execution (although they can be made unarmed).
Not really.
"there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt."
The same would be said of a Lance. There's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a Lance because the lance doesn't help you make the trip attempt.
There is a difference between a lance and a longsword because a Longsword does not have Reach.
It allows the Polearm Master to not only use his Lance to trip, but he gains the Lance enhancement bonus, weapon training, weapon focus, and other bonuses to his Trip combat maneuver roll, and he can perform it at reach.
Grick, thanks for bringing the FAQ to the attention of the original poster. It has great impact on this discussion. However, I find that the conclusion you draw in the above quotation is lacking. Instead, I will suggest that the writer of the Archetype had confusion on how Trip (trip property) works and how Trip works, as the FAQ on Trip did not come out until recently.
Keeping the FAQ in mind, let us examine a Trip weapon with Reach: the Guisarme. Ok? Ok.
So we know that from the FAQ on Trip that a weapon does not have to have Trip to be used in making a Trip Attempt.
there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt.
You're still hitting the opponent with your weapon when you trip, you just don't get any bonuses. The trip property simply does the following:
There are advantages to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver. One, if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone. Two, you can apply the weapon's enhancement bonus, weapon-specific attack bonuses such as Weapon Focus, and so on to your trip combat maneuver roll.
Notice this does not say that it is an exclusive benefit of a weapon with the Trip property to be used at Reach or at Range. Nor, does it say in the Trip property's description in the Core rules that this is the case. But, we know the Bola, Guisarme and the Whip are specifically designed to make trip attacks from Reach/Range.
Therefore we must conclude that:
A) Any weapon can be used to make a trip attack
B) Weapons with the Trip property add bonuses to the attack
C) Weapons with the Trip property can be dropped if a trip attempt goes sour
D) It is by virtue that a weapon is a Reach weapon that it can be used to make trip attempts at Reach.
Would anyone argue that you could not make a Disarm or Sunder attempt with a reach weapon?
If a weapon doesn't have the trip property, you don't use it to make the trip maneuver.
I.e. you don't use the longsword in a trip attempt any more than you use your bedroll in said trip attempt. No trip property = cannot be used with trip.
Please re-read the FAQ in which a longsword is used to make a trip attempt.
If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No. Note that when making a trip combat maneuver, you don't need to use a weapon at all--for example, you can trip when you're unarmed, even though unarmed strike isn't listed as a trip weapon.
[...]
You wouldn't add the enhancement bonus from a +5 longsword to your trip combat maneuver roll because a longsword is not a trip weapon. In effect, there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt.
Although Longsword/Unarmed strike are not trip weapons, they are quite different. As the FAQ states, either option can be used to execute a trip attempt (sans the bonuses Trip Property weapons enjoy). Therefore you can use a Longspear to Trip at Reach as well.
You take the penalty so you can drop the weapon. And you can trip at range.
There is nothing in the rules as written which implies that the Polearm Master wouldn't fall prone if he failed a trip attempt using a polearm without the trip property. As for tripping at range, that depends on how you interpret the Trip FAQ I guess.
Although Longsword/Unarmed strike are not trip weapons, they are quite different. As the FAQ states, either option can be used to execute a trip attempt (sans the bonuses Trip Property weapons enjoy). Therefore you can use a Longspear to Trip at Reach as well.
This is how I have interpreted the Trip FAQ as well, in which case the 13th level ability of the Polearm Specialist feels redundant, if not broken. The fighter could make a trip attempt with their non-trip property polearm at level 12 at a -0 penalty, but at level 13 it becomes a -4 penalty.
Muzzy,
I believe the intent of the Polearm Master's ability is to count the weapon as if it had the "Trip" feature and thus the Polearm master can benefit from all additional benefits normally used "to-Hit" on the Trip role, such as Weapon Focus, Enhancement Bonus, etc.
Given the statements from the Developers about most trips not using the (non-trip) weapons in hand, it is douptful that you can trip at range with a reach weapon without the trip feature.
The developers use an example of a Longsword being used to trip. Please let me know where I am reading this incorrectly.
The longsword is a non-trip weapon. Yet, it is used to make a trip attempt.
The FAQ even begins with:
If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No.
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."
"SKR's FAQ on Trip wrote:
there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt."
So yes you can make a trip attack with a longsword, but you cannot drop it to avoid being tripped if you fail the role by 10 or more, nor do you get any benefit from the "+5" quaility of the weapon.
Given the rules as written do not ban you from tripping with a reach (Non-trip) weapon, you can attempt the trip at range, with a reach weapon.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Given the rules as written do not ban you from tripping with a reach (Non-trip) weapon, you can attempt the trip at range, with a reach weapon.
Thanks David. It is a strange situation, I admit, but the Trip property is adding a lot more confusion than is necessary. The underlying point is the one you made in the quote (and post) above. Making a trip attempt with a non-trip weapon is viable.
So that leaves us at my original point:
I will suggest that the writer of the Archetype had confusion on how Trip [(the trip weapon property)] works and how Trip works, as the [more comprehensive] FAQ on Trip did not come out until recently.
If the level of debate is so low that you refuse to read the text you're quoting and actually add things to it that are not there, I don't see why any rational person would spend time explaining this.
I understand you have your own interpretation, but the developers have plainly stated that having the Trip property has no bearing on if the weapon can be used to trip or not.
The trip property simply confers a set of bonuses when making the attempt, as noted in the FAQ.
Why else would they make the comparison of Longsword to Unarmed? Would they not have stated something a little more clear?
Such as: Unless you make a trip attempt with a trip weapon you are considered to do it unarmed (ie sans-weapon)?
You have the text. Read it. Understand it. Be intellectually honest
Good day.
Perhaps when you return you'll have some evidence to further this debate and help convey your interpretation to the rest of us.
It would have been better if the ability granted the wielded pole-arms the "Trip" and "Bull-rush" features, but at a -4 Penality. At 13th Level the Fighter is still going to be ahead on the Trip attempt as all the extra benefits come into play.
I wonder if it was the intention of the developer that the "Bull-rush" feature would allow for attack iterative attempts? Or is it just the ability to Bull-rush at range (But still taking a standard action)
It would have been better if the ability granted the wielded pole-arms the "Trip" and "Bull-rush" features, but at a -4 Penality. At 13th Level the Fighter is still going to be ahead on the Trip attempt as all the extra benefits come into play.
That would have been nice, but they'd have to outline a Bull Rush feature - which I would be ok with.
I wonder if it was the intention of the developer that the "Bull-rush" feature would allow for attack iterative attempts? Or is it just the ability to Bull-rush at range (But still taking a standard action)
Hmm.. since bull rushes can't normally be taken "in place of a melee attack" I think its just the bull rush at range, because bull rush CMB attempts don't normally take weapons (ie non-natural sources of Reach) into account.
Stynkk,
As written I agree, it would at best allow for a Bull-rush at range. (With the -4 penalty and weapon bonuses, focus etc).
A Pole-Arm Master has probably chosen a Pole-Arm with Trip, so this is not a great ability.
I suppose it does allow for pushback from 10' to 15', thus denying the opponent (Assuming both are medium sized) a full attack action.
{5' step back [to use the pole-arm in the first place], Standard Action Bull rush} But the same effect can be got by taking the 5' step after the bull-rush without the ability.
I suppose it does allow for pushback from 10' to 15', thus denying the opponent (Assuming both are medium sized) a full attack action.
{5' step back [to use the pole-arm in the first place], Standard Action Bull rush} But the same effect can be got by taking the 5' step after the bull-rush without the ability.
I concur with the assertion that this is a minor boon at best, especially since the Pushing Assault feat is also in the APG.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."
"SKR's FAQ on Trip wrote:
there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt."So yes you can make a trip attack with a longsword, but you cannot drop it to avoid being tripped if you fail the role by 10 or more, nor do you get any benefit from the "+5" quaility of the weapon.
Given the rules as written do not ban you from tripping with a reach (Non-trip) weapon, you can attempt the trip at range, with a reach weapon.
"Not listed as a trip weapon" =/= "not a trip weapon"
A weapon without the trip property "doesn't help you make the trip attempt." Using a weapon with the reach property (but without the trip property) to make a trip attempt adds no benefit to the trip attempt, including the reach weapon property.
Stop deliberately looking for loopholes. Just because it's not explicitly prohibited, the RAW and RAI are pretty clear: there's "no difference" between an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a non-trip weapon. Just as you can't disarm at reach using a non-disarm reach weapon, you can't trip at reach using a non-trip reach weapon.
Sweeping Fend is a specific exception (like many other abilities and feats). If it weren't, as some have mentioned, it's a pretty worthless ability (apart from the bull rush part).
"A weapon without the trip property "doesn't help you make the trip attempt." Using a weapon with the reach property (but without the trip property) to make a trip attempt adds no benefit to the trip attempt, including the reach weapon property."
That is the bit that we disagree on.
I can use a Long Spear at range (10') to interfere with your movement (Waving the spear at your feet). It is not very effective (no bonus from the weapon enchancements and my feat /abilities) and you can pull on the spear to pull me off my feet. But it is still using the "reach" feature of the weapon.
I can use a Long Spear at range (10') to interfere with your movement (Waving the spear at your feet). It is not very effective (no bonus from the weapon enchancements and my feat /abilities) and you can pull on the spear to pull me off my feet. But it is still using the "reach" feature of the weapon.
Well put, the reach feature is in no way tied to the trip feature. The weapon is not helping you (adding weapon-specific bonuses), but that does not mean it is not used in the attempt (like SKR's longsword). Again we look to the FAQ example:
The longsword is used in the attempt - but provides no bonuses thus it is in effect the same as an unarmed trip attempt. It is however in actuality using a weapon weapon in the attempt instead of making the attempt unarmed (as Trikk suggests) - that is plainly stated.
Do you deny that SKR's example in the Trip FAQ is a character using a +5 Longsword to trip the opponent? A simple yes or no response please - no conditions necessary. If we can't agree on that then we can't agree on anything. Hint: it is a yes.
The point of this exercise to show that a weapon is involved in the attempt as per the FAQ, much to Trikk's dismay and exactly the opposite of his conclusion here:
You cannot trip with a non-trip weapon.
While an Unarmed Strike and a Longsword are the same (in that they don't have Reach), if a weapon is in fact used in the attempt then you can use the properties of the weapon involved (such as reach). If this were not the case, then there would be no point in Sean taking his time to differentiate employing a sword from unarmed in a trip attempt.
Therefore you must conclude that the reason reach weapons can be used to trip is the fact that they are reach weapons.
For further Rules Proof let's examine the Trip Weapon Feature. At no point in the description of it is it written or implied that this feature allows you to make a Trip attack via the Reach feature, instead it is quite clear in the bonuses it deals with. Enabling the use of reach is not one of them.
The amount of semantics involved in this discussion is just staggering.
Sweeping Fend is a specific exception (like many other abilities and feats). If it weren't, as some have mentioned, it's a pretty worthless ability (apart from the bull rush part).
It is pretty worthless with the new FAQ, that is what we are trying to state.
If the level of debate is so low that you refuse to read the text you're quoting and actually add things to it that are not there, I don't see why any rational person would spend time explaining this.
You have the text. Read it. Understand it. Be intellectually honest.
Good day.
Think of it another way. If you have to use your unarmed attack to trip an opponent while wielding a longsword, then shouldn't you be taking a -8 penalty for your off hand attack, and a -4 to your primary hand? The FAQ doesn't mention that at all, nor does it even suggest it.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
The "trip with a non-trip weapon" issue (which only exists because of the stubborn, willful misinterpretation of the FAQ be a vocal minority) has already been decisively clarified.
And to anyone who doesn't wish to continue to invent an issue, that's the end of it.
Jiggy,
I would have just linked directly to James Jacobs ruling on this vs your favorite list.
"Caineach wrote:
My question to this is if you have a reach weapon that is not a trip weapon, can you trip at reach. There is nothing in the rules to prevent it, but your interpretation would.
James Jacobs Answer:
In order to trip with reach, you either need to have reach on your own as a virtue of your race, or you need to be wielding a reach weapon with the trip ability.
Being able to trip with any long-hafted weapon like a spear or pole arm is a neat idea, but that's better handled as a specific feat rather than allowing any long-hafted weapon to gain the trip ability."
Given that statement, I was wrong in my belief, as stated earlier in this thread, that you can trip with a (non-trip) Reach weapon and gain the benefit of the Reach.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Jiggy,
I would have just linked directly to James Jacobs ruling on this vs your favorite list.
Given that James had to repeat himself several times in that thread, I felt that quick access to that repetition would be helpful to have on hand. Also note that my entire Favorites list is devoted to the trip question, with only one post not from James, and even that one references him.
Given Jiggy's posting of James Jacob's definitive ruling on the issue, it would be helpful if the trip weapon quality description and the trip manoeuvre itself in the PRD were amended to explicitly state that:
a. the only weapons that can be used to make trip attacks are ones with the trip quality
b. you can still make a trip attack if you do not have a weapon with the trip quality, but you are using your body when you do so.
or words to that effect.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Given Jiggy's posting of James Jacob's definitive ruling on the issue, it would be helpful if the trip weapon quality description and the trip manoeuvre itself in the PRD were amended to explicitly state that:
a. the only weapons that can be used to make trip attacks are ones with the trip quality
b. you can still make a trip attack if you do not have a weapon with the trip quality, but you are using your body when you do so.
or words to that effect.
Well, part of this you can infer from the Trip weapon quality:
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.[/url]
There is an implication (an admittedly moderate one) that, since part of the definition is that "you can do X", then the normal state must be that you can't.
Even so, yes, there did need to be more clear language on the subject; hence the FAQ.
Jiggy, thanks for adding to the discussion. It is interesting to see more developer thoughts on the idea.
However interesting these "new" posts are, there is an issue... and I'm glad that I'm here to point out the clear and GLARING problem with the "revelation" of James' rulings/discussion on the matter as the RAW.
James was commenting on Trip in 2010 in FEBRUARY. Obviously his opinion on the matter was taken into account and discussed internally with the rest of the rules & mechanics team.
SKR's FAQ Clarification came out NEARLY A YEAR LATER in March 2011. I hope that people take this into account when they read the FAQ and compare James' statements to it.
The title of the FAQ is: If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature? No.
And then proceeds to OUTLINE a case in which a +5 LONGSWORD (non-trip weapon) is used in a Trip Attempt. Maybe I am naive in my faith in Paizo and their clarification, but I would think if they wanted to eliminate all confusion they would not reference the Longsword *at all*
So clearly the development team does not feel the same as James Jacobs does.
Well, part of this you can infer from the Trip weapon quality:
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.There is an implication (an admittedly moderate one) that, since part of the definition is that "you can do X", then the normal state must be that you can't.
Even so, yes, there did need to be more clear language on the subject; hence the FAQ.
The whole issue of trip-or-not has been caused by inferring things and implications resulting in different views for different people. Plus the "you can do X, the then normal state must be that you can't" is also fraught with potential for differences of opinion. That's why a clear cut "If you want to use a weapon, you have to use one that lists "trip" under its Special category" or a "You can't trip with a weapon unless that weapon has the word "trip" listed under its special", as per James Jacobs's posts is the way to go.
That's why a clear cut "If you want to use a weapon, you have to use one that lists "trip" under its Special category" or a "You can't trip with a weapon unless that weapon has the word "trip" listed under its special", as per James Jacobs's posts is the way to go.
Except we're now willfully ignoring Sean's more recent FAQ (not opinion) post that says you can trip using a non-trip weapon?
Jiggy, thanks for adding to the discussion. It is interesting to see more developer thoughts on the idea.
However interesting these "new" posts are, there is an issue... and I'm glad that I'm here to point out the clear and GLARING problem with the "revelation" of James' rulings/discussion on the matter as the RAW.
James was commenting on Trip in 2010 in FEBRUARY. Obviously his opinion on the matter was taken into account and discussed internally with the rest of the rules & mechanics team.
SKR's FAQ Clarification came out NEARLY A YEAR LATER in March 2011. I hope that people take this into account when they read the FAQ and compare James' statements to it.
The title of the FAQ is: If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature? No.
And then proceeds to OUTLINE a case in which a +5 LONGSWORD (non-trip weapon) is used in a Trip Attempt. Maybe I am naive in my faith in Paizo and their clarification, but I would think if they wanted to eliminate all confusion they would not reference the Longsword *at all*
So clearly the development team does not feel the same as James Jacobs does.
So does a Creative Director trump a Lead Game Designer or a Developer? Just because you believe James and Sean have a different position on tripping with a non-trip weapon, it doesn't therefor mean that the "development team" does not feel the same way as James Jacobs.
My personal reading of SKR's "+5 longsword" comment, is that he is saying that it doesn't matter whether you are holding a funky longsword or a plain old longsword or even a a hand sandwich when you try and trip someone - there is no benefit as you aren't using the longsword itself. The "the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt" bit suggests to me that if it isn't helping it isn't being used.
And as far as it pertains to tripping when adjacent to your foe, it is irrelevant whether you actually use the weapon or not as, if you were to actually be able to use the weapon, you get no benefit over not using the weapon. The only relevance is to the argument about whether you can trip with a reach weapon that does not have the trip special quality. As James said "In order to trip with reach, you either need to have reach on your own as a virtue of your race, or you need to be wielding a reach weapon with the trip ability".
One thing I have found from working as an editor for many years is that what a person actually writes and what their intended message is don't always match. A writer can be sure that they are saying "X = Y" yet some people read it as "X =/= Y" or "X is similar to Y".
So you can either parse the sentence to death and then go back to the author to ask them to clarify what they have said (particularly if what they are writing related to rules, assessments or instructions). Or you can try and work out what the author's intent is, based on the rest of what they have written.
For something like Pathfinder the former is preferable as the latter approach leads to all these posts where multiple positions are held and no one agrees even where someone in authority makes a definitive statement on the issue.
That's why a clear cut "If you want to use a weapon, you have to use one that lists "trip" under its Special category" or a "You can't trip with a weapon unless that weapon has the word "trip" listed under its special", as per James Jacobs's posts is the way to go.Except we're now willfully ignoring Sean's more recent FAQ (not opinion) post that says you can trip using a non-trip weapon?
You say wilfully ignoring, I say open to interpretation. In the absence of an unequivocally clear statement, preferably as a change to the actual rulebooks and PRD, then you can continue to go around and around in circles.
|
By the FAQ, you can trip with a non-trip weapon, but if you do you do not get the enhancement bonus, any feat related attack bonus like weapon focus, or the ability to drop the weapon to prevent being tripped yourself.
So I would say that this ruling is more receant as was previously stated then that old post from a year ago. That being said the polearm master probably needs to be updated as well, I think if I was GMing I would just rule that you could recive the normal fighter bonus for that level instead of the one involving trip.
SKR states: "the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt."
Since the sword and the lance are both not trip weapons, we can take the following as true: "the lance doesn't help you make the trip attempt."
So if you are tripping someone 10' away from you, how is this happening if the lance isn't helping you make the trip attempt?
Answer: The lance is helping you make the trip attempt by allowing you to use the reach property.
There's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a lance because the lance doesn't help you make the trip attempt.
The FAQ and James do not disagree.
No. Note that when making a trip combat maneuver, you don't need to use a weapon at all--for example, you can trip when you're unarmed, even though unarmed strike isn't listed as a trip weapon.
There are advantages to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver. One, if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone. Two, you can apply the weapon's enhancement bonus, weapon-specific attack bonuses such as Weapon Focus, and so on to your trip combat maneuver roll.
For example, you'd add the enhancement bonus from a +5 whip to your trip combat maneuver roll because a whip is a trip weapon. You wouldn't add the enhancement bonus from a +5 longsword to your trip combat maneuver roll because a longsword is not a trip weapon. In effect, there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt.
—Sean K Reynolds, 03/15/11
Rules errata and FAQs are updated over time. Yes James Jacobs post came before the FAQ entry, but that entry does not make it invalid because of the last line in the FAQ "Because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt."
The FAQ entry would have killed 2 birds with one stone if the weapon used in the example was a Long Spear +5 & reference was made to the reach or lack there of. Hopefully this will be updated in the future.
Sean just updated the FAQs so they read more clearly:
If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
Note that there are advantages to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver. One, if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone. Two, you can apply the trip weapon's enhancement bonus, weapon-specific attack bonuses such as Weapon Focus, and so on to your trip combat maneuver roll.
For example, you'd add the enhancement bonus from a +5 whip to your trip combat maneuver roll because a whip is a trip weapon. You wouldn't add the enhancement bonus from a +5 longsword to your trip combat maneuver roll because a longsword is not a trip weapon. In effect, there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt.