- Dweomercraft -
The bigger deal is that the typical party will be making a LOT more rolls to hit and damage than will there be caster level or concentration checks. For this reason I have to give this ability the big thumbs down... it is less useful that the ability it replaces.
Sure, though I don`t know if you will say that when dealing with opponents with serious SR.
Incidentally, I think a Magus doing Spellstrike could benefit from the attack bonus since it IS a spell`s attack roll.For me, I ask, `how can I live with giving up Inspire Courage?`
Well, you still have spells which give similar buffs, which normally are at least partially superfluous with the Performance. The Arcane Bond means you have more slots to throw around, for this, as well as making use of Metamagic. There are also other classes that can give similar buffs, if you decide that you really need them. Players have tons of options to get extra to-hit... not so much for SR. The Concentration bonus makes Grappled Spellcasting POSSIBLE to think about :-)
- Spell Supression -
So you get this ability at 8th level when things will be casting 4th level spells pretty easily. NPCs don't have a bunch of encounters per day and are likely to bust out their best spells right at the beginning of combat... not 4 rounds into the combat... so you can't stop them. If they are kind enough to cast a 1st level spell the 1st round, a 2nd level spell the second round, etc., then you will own them... it is just not likely to go that route.
Full Casters will often have many spells pre-cast, either long-duration, or when they have several rounds of warning. Most of the spells used by those Casters are not their top-tier spells. All of those lower-tier spells you can easily take care of... All the more so when you also have several rounds` warning to pre-buff, during which you can start your Spell Suppression performance, setting you up to take down top-tier spells, especially when the battle lasts several rounds.
And given Paizo has explicity stated this, you can`t look at ability trades 1:1.
Compare having Spell Suppression to Inspire Courage and Dirge of Doom (which you can`t use simultaneously).
Your melee allies may be hitting a bit lower, but you`ve just stripped the bread-and-butter buff spells giving AC bonuses and miss-chance... that Full Casters de facto RELY ON. That more than balances out IMHO. With Extended Performance, you can start your Caster Check-boosting Peformance, switch to Spell Suppression, and benefit from the Caster Level bonus when Dispelling. And the assumption that you will only face `Full Caster` opponents seems silly: enemy Bard and Summoner (not to mention Magus) spells are all the more easily dealt with by Spell Suppression.
Improved Counterspell - (also, as a bard you don't have spells of every school, and you are casting spells below the max spell level of a wizard you are fighting... so even optimally you aren't a great counterspeller.)
I generally agree with you, using the Spell Suppression will generally work better that actual Counterspelling even with this bonus Feat (though it`s nice to have the option), but this point (that I`m quoting) completely clashes with the fact they gain bonus spells from any list via Expanded Repertoire, i.e. of whatever School they want.
- Expanded Repertiore -
Again, you seemed to over-look the huge thing about this ability, that these are spells from ANY arcane spell list, so it is in no way comparable to the Human Favored Class Bonus or even the Extra Arcana Feat. As mentioned up thread several times, you can cherry-pick the Class List you want, using Wizard, Witch (including normal Cleric/Druid spells), Summoner, or Magus, the latter of which have many early-entry (spell level) spells... OR `just` Bard spells.
- Arcane Bond -
MY only question about this ability (and one that I just thought of), is whether it makes you ineligible to gain Arcane Bond via another means, e.g. Eldritch Heritage:Arcana to gain a Familiar. If so, that sucks 8-(
Over-all, if you`re willing to give up some Core Bard abilities to be better `fighty Bard`, I`d say that Arcane Duelist IS going to be alot easier, more direct, and less complex strategies to think about. If you`re willing to take account of more complex strategies, Magician Bard is more than workable, and it`s abilities don`t actually require a maxed CHA/casting focus, so your physical combat abilities can be high enough to be effective. Ironically, both have `anti-caster` abilities (Disruptive/Spellbreaker and Spell Suppression), although in different forms.
Sure, though I don`t know if you will say that when dealing with opponents with serious SR.
My tactic would be to not cast my spells on the creature with SR but instead cast them on my allies who won't save or resist when I buff them.
Basically, as a bard you are not a full casting class. When you are getting to higher levels you are casting spells of a lower level and have a disadvantage when it comes to saves and such. Don't be trapped by that, use your spells to buff... you tend to get more bang for your spell that way anyway.
So, yes. I most definitely want want by +3 to hit and damage to all my friends when I am facing a creature with high SR... they tend to have a tougher time resisting extra damage and getting hit a bunch. So I would still come down on the side of Inspire Courage very strongly.
Maybe if the ability had boosted DC... but it doesn't.
Incidentally, I think a Magus doing Spellstrike could benefit from the attack bonus since it IS a spell`s attack roll.
I don't know... interesting... since the attack is through a weapon you are then making the weapon attack. As a GM I would allow it though (but only for that one attack in a full attack routine), as I don't think it would break the game at all.
For me, I ask, `how can I live with giving up Inspire Courage?
And this is probably where we are coming to the disagreement. Not that you are asking the wrong thing, just not what I would ask. For me it is, "Which is more useful, the ability I am giving up or the one that I am getting?"
Since in this case you are giving up a really, really useful ability in most encounters in the game (not all, there are social encounters as well), that buffs more people in the party (tends to be more meleers than spellcasters in any given round), I have to come down on this being a loss to trade out. It's not that it is inherently a bad ability, it is useful, just not as useful as Inspire Courage.
Well, you still have spells which give similar buffs, which normally are at least partially superfluous with the Performance.
Pathfinder made a fairly subtle change to the Inspire Courage ability that change the buff type from a morale bonus in 3.5 to a competence bonus. This makes it WAY more useful. It used to be that you would want to coordinate on any spells cast by others that buff since they often also did a morale bonus (like Bless), but this is no longer the case. It's a fairly unique bonus type, so it stacks very nicely. You can have your courage and bless it too.
Inspire Courage (and the ability that replaces it) are precision buffing... you decide round to round if you need it rather than a one shot for the day. Yes, you still have buffing spells, but since these can likely stack nicely with Inspire Courage you want them too, not in place of Inspire Courage.
The Arcane Bond means you have more slots to throw around, for this, as well as making use of Metamagic.
Arcane bond will only give you one additional spell per day. Your call on the level and of any spell you know. For a wizard or any other non-spontaneous caster this is fantastic! But for a spontaneous caster it amounts to nothing more than a free spell per day at your highest level. Not that an extra spell at your highest level is a bad thing mind you, but it isn't a huge one either...
There are also other classes that can give similar buffs, if you decide that you really need them. Players have tons of options to get extra to-hit... not so much for SR.
Again, I would rather have 4 other guys doing extra damage and missing less than having a slightly better chance that one or two spells a round might go through. That creature only gets so many hit points and once they are gone his spell resistance doesn't really matter. Yes, there are absolutely situations I can think of where higher checks against SR would be better than +hit/+dmg, but it will not be useful in nearly as many situations.
It's important to remember we are talking a party wide buff, not just a buff to your character alone (in which case maybe the SR one would pull a bit more weight than I give it credit for).
The Concentration bonus makes Grappled Spellcasting POSSIBLE to think about :-)
This is hopefully a really rare situation, and certainly one that comes up even less than the bonus to saves from charm and fear effects that Inspire Courage gives. Once you are able to cast dimension door (admittedly latter in the game), you can just pop out of grapples anyway... your wizard friend should be doing so even earlier.
Full Casters will often have many spells pre-cast, either long-duration, or when they have several rounds of warning. Most of the spells used by those Casters are not their top-tier spells. All of those lower-tier spells you can easily take care of...
If this ability let you dispel in place magical effects like you describe (ie. get rid of a mage armor cast at the beginning of the day), it would be a HOT, HOT, HOT ability. Unfortunately it only lets you counter spells as they are being cast, so that mage armor is staying nicely in place... I suppose if you dispel that buff another way and then you have this going when the enemy tries to recast the buff then you have him by the short hairs, but I see that as a much less likely scenario.
I think the confusion here is coming from the ability saying:
"The attempt to counter the spell is made as if using dispel magic, using the bard’s level as the caster level."
Dispel Magic has specific wording on how it works if it is used to counter a spell. This does not mean that that the other portions of dispel magic (like targeted dispel) can be used by the Spell Suppression ability.
Like I said, if you have an enemy nice enough to cast level 1 spells on the first round, level 2 spells on the second, etc., then this is a really powerful ability. My experience as a player and GM is that this isn't the way of things. As you said, many enemies pre-cast lower level buffs so they are not counterable (you weren't there singing this song when they were cast), and once in combat they are busting out the big guns first (they only have one combat per day so no reason to save them).
All the more so when you also have several rounds` warning to pre-buff, during which you can start your Spell Suppression performance, setting you up to take down top-tier spells, especially when the battle lasts several rounds.
This is an interesting tactic that I hadn't considered (good job!), but I am still not impressed enough to say it makes it a useful ability. Instead of having precision buff you can use just when you need it you have something that has to blanket the combat for the duration so you can counter any spells that MIGHT be cast. Additionally in many situations you won't have several rounds that you can start performing in prior to the combat. In those situations though, this ability could be really nice... but it would hog such a huge amount of your rounds of performance that you couldn't do it too often.
but this point (that I`m quoting) completely clashes with the fact they gain bonus spells from any list via Expanded Repertoire, i.e. of whatever School they want.
Good point! I hadn't considered using Expanded Repertoire to make sure you had spells of each school. That said, countering is still a really clunky mechanic that doesn't work well. Taking spells for their school means you aren't taking what are just some awesome spells that would have done you a TON of good if cast. Expanded Repertoire is one of the better abilities this archetype gets, and using it like this limits the ability... pulls this one up slightly, but not enough for the cost of using it.
Again, you seemed to over-look the huge thing about this ability, that these are spells from ANY arcane spell list, so it is in no way comparable to the Human Favored Class Bonus or even the Extra Arcana Feat.
You are absolutely right, I did overlook that, and that does indeed make this a VERY good ability. I will definitely change my opinion of this ability. It is awesome sauce.
MY only question about this ability (and one that I just thought of), is whether it makes you ineligible to gain Arcane Bond via another means, e.g. Eldritch Heritage:Arcana to gain a Familiar. If so, that sucks 8-(
I think if you gained the Arcane Bond ability from another class that this and that class would stack for abilities of the bonded item. However, if you get it from a feat... I am not sure... nor am I sure of a RAW ruling on this one... guess I will just have to say I don't know, but I would be surprised if you could end up with both a bonded item and a familiar.
Anyway, good discussion points! I appreciate you challenging my conclusion and making me think about them. However, while I am now much more impressed with Expanded Repertoire, it isn't enough to pull the whole archetype into a more useful spot in my eyes. What it loses in total is not overcome by the total gains. As you said you can't JUST look at each individual trade... and I am not when I say that this archetype just doesn't do enough for what it loses IMHO.
Sean Mahoney
Yeah, I think I mis-read the Spell Suppression re: Dispelling existing spell effects.
BAH! It SHOULD work that way! ;-)
I definitely agree that Magicians will tend to burn alot of Performance Rounds `warming up` their Spell Supression, and thus will almost certainly want the Extra Performance Feat at low-mid levels, although that concern lessens once you have enough levels under your belt. ...And the Extended Performance ability helps alleviate it as well, for when you use the other performance types. Given that ALL casters benefit hugely by extra rounds to `prepare`, I don`t see the cost here as disproportional, and it IS a very efficient way to spend buffing rounds (obviously for when you forsee enemy spellcasters, not every fight per se).
I think I just come at it from looking at Casters in general from being very powerful in terms of being able to alter pretty much any mechanic that affects a situation... So ensuring that it works when allies spend their round to Cast, or negating the enemy`s round when they try to Cast, is a very strong ability... Especially when you`re not spending your combat round (ala Counterspell) to pull it off. I see it as tending to end the fight earlier if an enemy spell is counterspelled - Though probably not (the full spell level) number of rounds earlier, that means you and your allies are saving spells as well.
FYI, while you CAN cast non-Somatic spells while Grappled, there`s a hefty Concentration check to do so:
The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
I.e. Dimension Door with no Somatic components doesn`t avoid the Concentration check.
And the same goes for if you are Entangled (just 15 + spell level in that case).I guess the assumption, which may not be obvious, is that being jostled or hassled draws your attention away from mentally concentrating on the spell, even if you don`t need to concentrate on physical gestures.
(Don`t ask me why they didn`t use CMD, which suffices for everything else, instead of 10 + CMB.)
Yeah, I think I mis-read the Spell Suppression re: Dispelling existing spell effects.
BAH! It SHOULD work that way! ;-)
I agree! I REALLY wanted to like this archetype, but the mechanics just didn't live up to the promise. I guess it all goes back to me really wanting to counterspell... but it just not working in the game. I got really excited when I thought I had another good way to do it, but am just not real happy with how it would be done. Oh well...
If it did let you dispel existing effects it might be a bit too powerful and I would be waving the flag that it was awesome.
Don't get me wrong, it isn't a bad archetype, it may even be pretty much on par overall with what you lose if you are specifically looking for these things... just not in general (again, IMHO... I fully respect that others don't share all my opinions).
Sean Mahoney
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The Magician is an interesting archetype for the Bard. On one level you can simply look at the Expanded Repertoire Class Feature as a way to tweak your Bard build by cherry-picking those few spells you'd really want from other classes lists... but then you're not really utilising the whole of the archetype for what it seems designed to be: the Bardic blaster.
Look at the Dweomercraft performance. It boosts caster level checks (to help you blow past Spell Resistence), concentration checks (to help you cast in the thick of melee), and attack rolls with spells and spell-like abilities (to help you hit things). It's also, importantly, an untyped bonus - the very best kind around. Seeing this performance as just a boost for the other 'blasters' in your party may work, but to fully appreciate it you need to be a blaster yourself - and by 'blaster' I mean flinging out spells which need attack rolls to hit their targets (so melee touch spells, rays, all that good stuff). If there's a Magus in your group and you have this thing up you become his new best friend, because the Magus uses a lot of those sorts of spells; but as a Bard you share the Magus blaster's advantage of being a 3/4 BAB class, as opposed to the Sorcerers and Wizards out there. Hitting with touch attacks may be relatively easy, but the Magician is the guy designed to singe the hairs off a gnat's bum with his scorching rays...
The Magician is also built around wand use. Look at the Wand Mastery Class Feature: it's basically designed to keep non-utility wands relevant throughout the entire range of levels... but to use the Class Feature, the wand has to be packing one of the spells on the Magician's list. So, when he's picking up those Expanded Repertoire spells early on, he needs to be thinking about which spells he'll want to be spamming in wand-form in a few levels time, and to make Wand Mastery worthwhile at all, they need to be spells with save DCs which benefit a lot from increased caster level - so, basically, offensive combat spells, even if not pure blaster-bait.
Luckily for the Magician he gains the Arcane Bond Class Feature at level 5. This can't be a Familiar or a weapon... but it can (and really, really, ought to) be a wand. This way he can enchant the thing without needing the Craft Wand Item Creation Feat, it only works for him (palm-print recognition on your wand!), self-heals, and he can reload the thing with a little time and gold every time it runs dry - even loading in a different spell if he so wishes. Your Gunslinger may have a black-powder firearm... your Magician gets to pack a frickin' ray gun! ;)
The Metamagic Mastery performance also lends itself to blasting, as many Metamagic Feats work better (or only) with blasting type spells. By the time the Magician gets this performance at 14th level, starting a performance is a swift action for him. So, essentially, Metamagic Mastery allows the guy to spend a swift action and one round of Bardic Performance in order to circumvent the usual spontaneous caster limits on Metamagic use. This makes Metamagic actually worth considering for the guy.
The Magic Talent Class Feature makes the Magician the world's best spammer of Detect Magic, the world's best user of wands, and (combined with Improved Counterspell and / or the Spell Suppression performance) an absolute ace counterspeller. His limited spell levels (6 Vs 9) and slower spell level progression compared to a full caster hamper his counterspelling a little, but even high level Wizards don't go straight to Wish for everything.
Spell Suppression is a tricky tactical choice - you see an obvious enemy spellcaster as combat erupts, do you start the Spell Suppression, looking for the chance to knock down some of his spells, or stick to Dweomercraft and blast him out of his little pointy boots? If you commit to Spell Suppression you're almost certain to get a good trade-off out of it - a few rounds of Bardic Performance are generally thought of as a cheaper resource than the actual spells the bad guy is trying to launch. The thing is to bide your time, keep the performance going, and look for your golden shot. Sometimes the bad guy will make it easy - starting out by self-buffing with the low-level classics while his melee guys act as a barrier: mage armour... dispelled! shield... dispelled! If you get lucky he'll not even have his defenses up by the time you and your buddies get round to him. If he's a bit more prepared, then you just keep the performance going until he goes to cast something you can and want to dispell later on - most bad guy casters won't just cast spells for one or two rounds then stand by twiddling their thumbs, after all! By the time you're starting Bardic Performances as move or swift actions this thing really comes into its own.
Generally speaking a human Magician is going to do the best, since his human Favoured Class option allows him to expand his spells known, and getting at least one from each school is important to get the most out of Improved Counterspell.
So yes, overall, it probably helps to think of the Magician as 'has wand, will travel'. For Expanded Repertoire spells, stuff like shocking grasp, hydraulic push, rays of all stripes, and the like are great choices - as they make great wand-fodder, and basically become your guy's 'weapon of choice'. Some may use a sword, or a bow... you blast 'em with your ever-handy wand of scorching rays. You also pack a quiver full of other, helpful, wands too, of course - your UMD is through the roof, and if they do happen to be on your class list you get the Wand Mastery loving as well...
Yeah... Magicians can rock. :)
I generated a 1st level half-elf archer arcane duelist as an exercise. Used the race trait Ancestral Weapon to get long bow. Feats were arcane strike and point blank shot. This looks like a very viable character.
To the person suggesting it, thanks for a great idea.
I'd like to point out that even one level dip into wizard adds almost all the arcane spells to your "spell list".
You are then using your charisma to set the DC of basically all wands you use. And eventually your caster level.
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I'd like to point out that even one level dip into wizard adds almost all the arcane spells to your "spell list".
Not your Magician spell list though, which is what the Wand Master Class Feature seems to require. After all, you can't spontaneously cast spells from your Wizard spellbook using your Bard spell slots - the two lists are seperate and distinct (and you generally need something like the Mystic Theurge Prestige Class to have any sort of 'cross-over' between two spell lists... not that Mystic Theurge would help a Bard/Wizard, but hopefully you get the point).
On the other hand, allowing the Wand Master Class Feature to work with any wand you don't need a UMD check to use (which is basically what you're suggesting) would make a certain amount of sense from a thematic point of view - I just doubt that it's the intent of the Class Feature.
I'd like to point out that even one level dip into wizard adds almost all the arcane spells to your "spell list".Not your Magician spell list though, which is what the Wand Master Class Feature seems to require. After all, you can't spontaneously cast spells from your Wizard spellbook using your Bard spell slots - the two lists are seperate and distinct (and you generally need something like the Mystic Theurge Prestige Class to have any sort of 'cross-over' between two spell lists... not that Mystic Theurge would help a Bard/Wizard, but hopefully you get the point).
On the other hand, allowing the Wand Master Class Feature to work with any wand you don't need a UMD check to use (which is basically what you're suggesting) would make a certain amount of sense from a thematic point of view - I just doubt that it's the intent of the Class Feature.
It simply says "spell list", not "Magician's spell list."
That means that RAW, it will work with any spell of any class he has levels in.
It's like how if you dip one level into ranger, you can suddenly use wands of cure light wounds, since it is on your spell list.
It simply says "spell list", not "Magician's spell list."
That means that RAW, it will work with any spell of any class he has levels in.
It kind of does...
A magician uses a wand containing a spell on his spell list...
The 'his' is referring to the magician... so it IS saying 'on [the magician's] spell list.'
If it hadn't used magician earlier in the sentence and just said 'a character' or something similar, you would be right.
If you dip one level a ranger you can use that wand of cure light wounds because a first level ranger can use that wand of cure light wounds and you are a first level ranger. It doesn't add the ranger spells to your total spell list.
Sean Mahoney
It simply says "spell list", not "Magician's spell list."
That means that RAW, it will work with any spell of any class he has levels in.
It kind of does...
A magician uses a wand containing a spell on his spell list...The 'his' is referring to the magician... so it IS saying 'on [the magician's] spell list.'
If it hadn't used magician earlier in the sentence and just said 'a character' or something similar, you would be right.
If you dip one level a ranger you can use that wand of cure light wounds because a first level ranger can use that wand of cure light wounds and you are a first level ranger. It doesn't add the ranger spells to your total spell list.
Sean Mahoney
How else would you refer to the Magician? Seems to me that if they wanted it restricted to the magician's spell list, they would've just said so.
Since it doesn't specifically say
At 10th level, when a magician uses a wand containing a spell on his magician spell list, he uses his Charisma bonus to set the wand’s save DC.
I'm gonna go with the FAQ that says it would apply to all spells on the character's spell list.
It can't say bard either, because then the spells he adds from ER won't be buffed.
The reason why a first level ranger can use the wand of cure light wounds is because CLW is on his spell list. You can't cast 'em, but you have them.
Sean, and others: