|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
No no no... Throwing weapons have nothing to do with this issue as that's RANGED combat, throwing weapons works just the same as iterative attacks on a bow. If you are throwing AND meleeing at the same time, then you're talking TWF fighting and the attendend penalties would apply.Ah yes, I remember that. The conclusion we came to at the end was that it could ONLY refer to extra attacks from TWFing or every throwing character with quick draw and knives would get screwed for seemingly no reason (every attack after the first would automatically be off-hand by the "any extra attack" ruling).
To be fair, I asked for clarification in that thread if he was referring to any extra attack or just TWFing and got no response.
Incorrect sir. You can two-weapon fight with thrown weapons. It even has its own heading in the combat section under two-weapon fighting saying exactly this.
The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapons when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
EDIT: In addition, even if it didn't fall under two weapon fighting it does fall under "attack with a different weapon" by the definition given in the linked post.
Before you get me wrong, please read.
Let's say I have a BAB of +6/+1.
Can I use the +6 to hit with my sword, and do the +1 attack with my shield in the offhand for example?
It's obviously not TWF since I don't get an additional attack, but I'm not sure you can switch weapons like that.
Yes, you can fight in this manner. However, this is not technically TWF (as people have pointed out previously). That is a very specific PF game term.
You are instead using your iterative attacks (another very specific game term *bleh*). You may use your iterative attacks with any weapon you have that can currently make an attack (or any weapon if you have quick draw).
Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
That is the only way you are not going to have the massive negative for TWF.
|
Weilding a weapon in each hand is not two-weapon fighing unless you take the "extra attack". However you will still suffer the off hand strength damage adjustment ... right?
This is actually correct. In addition, you would still incur the Primary/Off Hand attack penalties.
To do what the OP wants, a Shielded Fighter has to give up his Weapon Training class feature.
PRD Shielded Fighter Archetype[/url]]Shield Fighter (Ex): At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels beyond 5th. With a full attack action, a shielded fighter may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
The, very clear, implication here is that the vast majority of characters in the world lack sufficient training to pull off this very specific class feature.
Edit:
|
Actually, VonGonda/Wolfthulhu, I think all you've demonstrated is that the Shielded Fighter archtype sucks. The RAW appears to allow this already, and we've got a quote from JJ to back that up.
TWF does not appear to be the same thing as fighting with a different weapon in each hand. It appears to only be when you fight that way AND it confers an extra attack.
Though I'm interested in any rules-evidence you've got to the contrary. I think we've definitely discovered an area that needs a bit of love.
|
|
As the ONLY place in the rules to mention doing what is asked for in this thread, I think it's a great rule that shows you are wrong, and I'm not sure how you manage to interpret James' post to support your idea, but it clearly does not.
The ONLY time an attack is considered an off-hand attack is when you make an attack with a second weapon in the same round you make an attack with a first weapon.
I'm not sure how it could be any more clear, he lists NO special circumstances, no mention of TWF. He says, "attack with a second weapon".
Seems pretty clear cut. In the end, do what you like, but don't try it at my PFS table.
|
|
As the ONLY place in the rules to mention doing what is asked for in this thread, I think it's a great rule that shows you are wrong, and I'm not sure how you manage to interpret James' post to support your idea, but it clearly does not.
I see. So since you have an optional archtype in an optional sourcebook, which may or may not be the work of a freelancer, you feel this is authoritative?
Why?
Have you read the other posts? Or did you just skip to the end?
Actually, VonGonda/Wolfthulhu, I think all you've demonstrated is that the Shielded Fighter archtype sucks. The RAW appears to allow this already, and we've got a quote from JJ to back that up.
TWF does not appear to be the same thing as fighting with a different weapon in each hand. It appears to only be when you fight that way AND it confers an extra attack.
Though I'm interested in any rules-evidence you've got to the contrary. I think we've definitely discovered an area that needs a bit of love.
I think the shield fighter benefit is just to get a touch more damage ... however looking at JJ's comment, I would interpret it as ...
fighter has a sword in 1 hand, dagger in second hand
fighter has BAB = +7/+2
example 1
fighter swings sword at +7
fighter stabs dagger at +2 (off hand attack because different weapon - incur 1/2 STR mod)
example 2
fighter stabs dagger at +7
fighter swings sword at +2 (off hand attack because different weapon - incur 1/2 STR mod)
example 3
fighter swings sword at +7
fighter swings sword again at +2 (no off hand because same weapon)
Regarding off-hand weapon damage. You get full STR when using iterative attacks - even if you use different weapons in different hands. Off-hand rules never apply.
1. You are not Two Weapon Fighting if you fight with Two Weapons.
I'll let that sink in for a minute. Let that marinate in there.
2. You are only Two Weapon Fighitng if you use the Full Attack action to gain an extra attack. This is called Two Weapon Fighitng in PF game terms. Then off-hand penalties/damage apply.
|
|
As the ONLY place in the rules to mention doing what is asked for in this thread, I think it's a great rule that shows you are wrong, and I'm not sure how you manage to interpret James' post to support your idea, but it clearly does not.
The ONLY time an attack is considered an off-hand attack is when you make an attack with a second weapon in the same round you make an attack with a first weapon.I'm not sure how it could be any more clear, he lists NO special circumstances, no mention of TWF. He says, "attack with a second weapon".
Seems pretty clear cut. In the end, do what you like, but don't try it at my PFS table.
Well I do hope you at the very least don't penalize them more than the reduced strength bonus. Even by the broadest interpretation James' quote there that would be the only penalty as long as you don't try to get an extra attack from it.
I asked James in that thread to clarify if he meant any additional attack or just TWFing and, despite responding to other comments in that thread afterwards, he did not respond to mine. One of the concerns with the impact of the "any weapon but the first is off-hand" ruling is thrown weapons, since you have to use extra weapons. And they do have off-hand rules since they can also be used with TWFing.
|
|
As the ONLY place in the rules to mention doing what is asked for in this thread, I think it's a great rule that shows you are wrong, and I'm not sure how you manage to interpret James' post to support your idea, but it clearly does not.
The ONLY time an attack is considered an off-hand attack is when you make an attack with a second weapon in the same round you make an attack with a first weapon.I'm not sure how it could be any more clear, he lists NO special circumstances, no mention of TWF. He says, "attack with a second weapon".
Seems pretty clear cut. In the end, do what you like, but don't try it at my PFS table.
Well I do hope you at the very least don't penalize them more than the reduced strength bonus. Even by the broadest interpretation James' quote there that would be the only penalty as long as you don't try to get an extra attack from it.
I asked James in that thread to clarify if he meant any additional attack or just TWFing and, despite responding to other comments in that thread afterwards, he did not respond to mine. One of the concerns with the impact of the "any weapon but the first is off-hand" ruling is thrown weapons, since you have to use extra weapons. And they do have off-hand rules since they can also be used with TWFing.
Reduced Str damage and attack penalties, just like the rules say.
As for thrown weapons, you know there's a feat for that. It's called Quick Draw.
|
|
As the ONLY place in the rules to mention doing what is asked for in this thread, I think it's a great rule that shows you are wrong, and I'm not sure how you manage to interpret James' post to support your idea, but it clearly does not.I see. So since you have an optional archtype in an optional sourcebook, which may or may not be the work of a freelancer, you feel this is authoritative?
Why?
Have you read the other posts? Or did you just skip to the end?
Seriously? You asked for a rule, one happens to be handily available for interpretation, but that's not good enough because it may not have come from James Jacobs' own hand?
|
|
As the ONLY place in the rules to mention doing what is asked for in this thread, I think it's a great rule that shows you are wrong, and I'm not sure how you manage to interpret James' post to support your idea, but it clearly does not.
The ONLY time an attack is considered an off-hand attack is when you make an attack with a second weapon in the same round you make an attack with a first weapon.I'm not sure how it could be any more clear, he lists NO special circumstances, no mention of TWF. He says, "attack with a second weapon".
Seems pretty clear cut. In the end, do what you like, but don't try it at my PFS table.
Well I do hope you at the very least don't penalize them more than the reduced strength bonus. Even by the broadest interpretation James' quote there that would be the only penalty as long as you don't try to get an extra attack from it.
I asked James in that thread to clarify if he meant any additional attack or just TWFing and, despite responding to other comments in that thread afterwards, he did not respond to mine. One of the concerns with the impact of the "any weapon but the first is off-hand" ruling is thrown weapons, since you have to use extra weapons. And they do have off-hand rules since they can also be used with TWFing.
Reduced Str damage and attack penalties, just like the rules say.
As for thrown weapons, you know there's a feat for that. It's called Quick Draw.
I was assuming they had quickdraw. And no, they wouldn't take attack penalties even with James' ruling. Only two-weapon fighting gives attack penalties, and that only triggers if you get extra attacks. This fact is part of the combat chapter description of two-weapon fighting.
The way the post from James is worded, the first attack designates that attack as "primary" and all others become "off-hand". Therefor, if you drew a dagger and threw it, that would be primary, but all subsequently drawn and thrown daggers would be off-hand (even if they are simply iterative with no extra attacks involved and even if that person has only one arm). THIS is (part of) why I wanted it clarified. It is essentially a nerf to an already ailing style of combat, in addition to being an unnecessary penalty to those who happen to be capable of switching weapons easily.