Sorry bro, anime tends to be closer to classic western myth and fantasy then D&D is. Haters gon hate.
It's simply that PF/D20 and the source material are too incompatible. They can be made compatible, by mutilating PF beyond recognition, or by disregarding huge chunks of the source material. Either way, it's the whole bicycle-to-the-moon problem: Sure you can do it, but with the mods required, the end result isn't a bicycle anymore.
I think this depends a lot on what source material you want to emulate. Anime is not a genre. It is a medium. There are dozens of genre within it, and even in 1 of the genres that is appropriate for a fantasy style game, you have great variability.
Kenshin, for instance, works fine as a campaign without primary casters. Almost all of the special abilities people have can be handled as simple buffs or lower level spells. There are a few mid-level bards/alchemists/varient monks, but the high level characters are pretty much all fighters/rogues. Spring attack and charge have been modified to work with Vital Strike and Cleave (common house rules), and a few custom monk powers were added, but those can mostly be handled with existing varients. Almost all of the special named attacks can be handled by adding fluff to standard base attacks. Perhaps a few custom feats were added, but nothing too hard.
Naruto on the other hand is not easily handled by Pathfinder. Everyone has special magical powers that are fairly issolated in 1 theme. People are highly mobile. Combat is more about outsmarting your opponent and his special powers than it is about straight up figthing. d20 rules are a little to static to handle this well.
Inu Yasha suffers similar problems to Naruto, but could be handled with some house rules. Every character in the series has 1 boon, that is over-powered relative to their level. This allows them to deal with challenges of inappropriate CR, but when that boon does not apply they are facing pretty normal challenges. This would only be a slight modification to the system, and something many GMs already do.
To be blunt, you are entirely wrong. It's as though you grew up only playing baseball, and now find yourself condemning someone who brings a soccer ball to the field because you don't see how this giant ball could possibly fit into a glove or be properly hit with a bat. You need to take a step back and understand there are other ways to play.
Possibly so -- or possibly he grew up playing baseball, and you hand him a soccer ball and tell him "we don't keep track of goals -- that's for minmaxers! -- and unlike socer you can use your hands if it looks 'cinematic' -- and pretty much we don't pick teams, because that models a skirmish-type scenario that is antithetical to our lofty ideals. But there's a ball, and we get to run around and stuff!"
Yes, everyone might have a lot of fun at that, but I personally wouldn't go so far as to call it a "game," although others might. There's a level of make-stuff-up-as-you-go at which point I would consider it a "freeform activity" instead (or, if you're sitting at a table, a "story hour.").
One isn't better than the other -- it's a matter of preference. Preferring to having a few more hard mechanical rules doesn't make someone an inferior being of some sort. Conversely, wanting storytime instead of a structured game isn't a bad thing. If storytime is better for modelling most popular Anime (and I suspect it is), then so be it. But calling that a "higher level of game" or "better" or whatever is somewhat off the mark.
It's simply that PF/D20 and the source material are too incompatible.I think this depends a lot on what source material you want to emulate. Anime is not a genre. It is a medium. There are dozens of genre within it, and even in 1 of the genres that is appropriate for a fantasy style game, you have great variability.
True.
There are two problems I found with this thread.
1. Terminology. I use the term "anime", and people jump all over it (even though I've been a part-time otaku for over a decade). In my OP, I also went so far as to include books or movies or other media... pretty much anything. But some otakus just can't get past the word "anime" in negative connotation, dispense with rational thought, and go on something resembling an offense.
2. The other problem is that people are misreading the what could qualify as the "TL;DR"; the intent of the OP. I'm not saying "never do it". Words which cater to possibilities and exceptions are all over my posts, from the OP onward... but my deferral to these possibilities is totally missed by many responders. I'm saying "most media doesn't port over well. If it doesn't, don't embarrass yourself by thinking it does."
Yes, everyone might have a lot of fun at that, but I personally wouldn't go so far as to call it a "game," although others might. There's a level of make-stuff-up-as-you-go at which point I would consider it a "freeform activity" instead (or, if you're sitting at a table, a "story hour.").
I wasn't talking about freeform role-play. I was talking about RPGs at a higher level of conflict abstraction than tactical simulation. Heck, even something as concrete as Cortex can still model cinematics in a balanced way.
You can have non-tactical games that still have detailed mechanics and balance. It's not just a choice between balanced tactical-level rules and no rules at all. There are other levels upon which to balance rules.
One isn't better than the other -- it's a matter of preference. Preferring to having a few more hard mechanical rules doesn't make someone an inferior being of some sort.
I agree with you here, and never said differently. It was the OP who made the mistake of calling one kind of game unplayable crap. I enjoy balanced tactical games, but I just recognize that the world isn't limited to them.
Also, again, hard mechanical rules are not limited to simulationist games. Simulation is not the only way to balance your rule set. Rules can be balanced at higher levels of abstraction -- again, the most obvious one being to mechanize success but leave the narrative details to the player. This isn't "storytime" just because it's more abstract than D&D, Warhammer, or PF.
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I have BESM. It's a horribly incomplete system...
I really don't see how it's horribly incomplete. Does it require a bit of GM tweaking depending on what exact genre you use it to play? Of course, as do all universal systems. But it can do fantasy, sci-fi, modern, horror...basically any genre you want to play. And really, you don't even have to give it an anime flavor if you don't want to, since that's really more of a style thing opposed to a mechanical thing.
If anything, BESM makes a game like Pathfinder look horribly incomplete, since Pathfinder can't really be used to do anything outside of fantasy without major modification.
I see the whole of anime combat in the light of Champions' (Hero Games) special effects rules. My Mega-Death Solar Incineration Cannon is a great RP and fluff bit, but it still does D6, stun only. That's half a slap. You have to actually have the attack, otherwise, its just fluff.
Dear anime fans.
Even though I'm pointing at Anime here, this also applies to many movies, books and so on, of multiple genres.
It's often pure fail. Here's why.
Anime, movies, books and so on are not made in consideration of game rules or game balance. They're not supposed to, either. Alot of people don't get this and try to port it over anyway, and one of many things happens ...
I am NOT an anime fan, so I'm not trying to defend anything here... but your second sentance is the most important. It applies to EVERYTHING...
Any character described as superheroic doesn't have to worry about rolling the D20... the moment he DOES, your going to be disappointed. That has NOTHING to do with mixing genres, and everythign to do with mixing literature with game.
Salvatore is notorious for simply writing a good story with interesting characters, despite the fact that they simply can NOT be statted up in any legitimate way. And he's writing gaming novels.
In fact MOST of the characters in the Realms novels were cooler than stats and paper could simulate... I saw it in Star Wars... I saw it in Marvel/DC superheroe RPGs...
Trying to tie awesomeness to mechanics will lead to disappointment.
...So instead of your Monk, Ninja, Wizard, Paladin, etc...being sent on a quest to storm the nearest dungeon, they're kids trained in these ancient secret fighting arts and sent to be new students at a modern High School to help protect the mystic relic buried deep beneath it.
PC's have to deal with evil demonic creatures trying to infiltrate, challengers from rival high schools, minions of the math teacher who's secretly a worshiper of the Old Ones, and homework. All while keeping the normal students and faculty (low level commoners and experts) from finding out about he "hidden world".
Sounds like Sigil Prep to me. Man, that was some awesome stuff :D .
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I've been developing a game system that emulates Anime to an extremely accurate and fun degree. It's true that it is hard to balance it all together into something cohesive that still elicits the level of excitement of the genre, but it's far from impossible and need not end in "disappointment that only the most serious fanboys could like" or whatever.
And for the record, fanboys don't like anything. No matter how closely you model it. "Fanboy" is a bad word precisely because it indicates a person so zealous about a thing that no discussion, emulation, or analysis of that thing could ever hope to measure up to his mindless adoration of it.
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Running and leaping from speeding car to speeding car while firing a pair of hand-cannons (bonus points if you have a matchstick in your mouth and keep your sunglasses on)
No problem. It's an acrobatics check to jump. If both cars are speeding at about the same speed, there is really nothing to it. Doesn't matter if both hands are full, we're talking about heroes here, not some random guy off the street.
So I'm in a group of heroes. My buddy, the wizard, makes reality his b%*!+, the cleric has a direct line to his god and can not only ask for a whole river to be rerouted to put out that big fire but will have his demand answered, but when I, the high-level rogue, jump from one speeding vehicle to the other, suddenly the world is coming to an end?
Skydiving without a parachute (!!!).
Fall damage maxes out at 20d6. 70 points of damage on average, maximum 120. High-level characters will hit the ground, get up, dust themselves off, beat up an army and go find a cleric for the little boo boo they have.
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Dear original poster:
This is not your game. You get to play it, but others get, too. They might like things you don't, and as long as they don't play in your party, you either have to learn to deal with this or stop playing.
Or, you can chug 10 litres of haterade and go on a hissy fit about people who share things they like but you don't, having badwrongfun in your city and now you must don your mask and cape and go on a crusade.
Of course, that will generally earn you mainly ridicule, but that's okay. You seem okay with that sort of thing. At least dishing it out.
Edit/Addendum: I hate getting personal, but you complain about people wanting to play powerful characters, maybe even powerful enough to go beyond the core power level, and when I open the profile, I "get" to read this:
"Was an Elf once. Now he's a lich. Malignor hates his old mortal self.
Malignor dwells in his Abyssal Core, experimenting on various creatures and turning them into vile things and unleashing them back upon the world. Enjoys challenging gods and mortals alike to many-layered games of manipulation, cruelty and deception, even if they win. Sadistic, malicious, curious and mischievous."
Yeah, the guys who jump from car to car with two big guns are bad. The guys who want to be undead super-elves who can trick the very gods are totally fine, though.
Dear original poster:
This is not your game. You get to play it, but others get, too. They might like things you don't, and as long as they don't play in your party, you either have to learn to deal with this or stop playing.
Or, you can chug 10 litres of haterade and go on a hissy fit about people who share things they like but you don't, having badwrongfun in your city and now you must don your mask and cape and go on a crusade.
Of course, that will generally earn you mainly ridicule, but that's okay. You seem okay with that sort of thing. At least dishing it out.
Edit/Addendum: I hate getting personal, but you complain about people wanting to play powerful characters, maybe even powerful enough to go beyond the core power level, and when I open the profile, I "get" to read this:
"Was an Elf once. Now he's a lich. Malignor hates his old mortal self.
Malignor dwells in his Abyssal Core, experimenting on various creatures and turning them into vile things and unleashing them back upon the world. Enjoys challenging gods and mortals alike to many-layered games of manipulation, cruelty and deception, even if they win. Sadistic, malicious, curious and mischievous."
Yeah, the guys who jump from car to car with two big guns are bad. The guys who want to be undead super-elves who can trick the very gods are totally fine, though.
Quoting the gamut to prevent edits.
How the above got favorited, multiple times, is surprising. It is probably the most stellar expression of misunderstanding, misquoting and reading comprehension fail I've had the pleasure of being addressed with. The assumptions required to type the above 2 posts are so seemingly plucked out of thin air that I found myself blinking at the screen with an expression which can be described as "LOLwut? Seriously?"Oh! I guess it's funny enough in its accidental self deprecation... I get it now.
I'll have more fun with this later. Have to shower and head to work.
[EDIT]Okay, I got a few minutes now; holding my kid so the mrs. can go for a smoke.
Re: HKAT
HKAT is a great system, designed around the concept that players build actors in Hong Kong. They bid for roles in movies made by the "Director" (the DM) which fall into genres of Kung Fu, Gunplay, or Bizarre Fantasy. Stunts like leaping from speeding car to speeding car while firing hand-cannons, or skydiving without a parachute, are remarkable because in this game they're supposedly stunts being done, by actors (not superbeings), for an action movie. That's why I think doing crazy stunts in HKAT are uproariously fun for the whole table - the imagery of this stuff in a live-action movie with real actors brings some OMG-factor leading to laughs and such.
Did I say this kind of stunt-pulling can't go into PF? No I didn't. PF and fantasy games are meant for all kinds of over-the-top craziness. The fact that I love the Sunder feat, despite what Mythbusters suggests, is a point of reference here. I love the idea of Fighters and Rogues (chosen for their lack of magic, to bring a point home) performing superhuman feats, like mixing Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave to effectively intercept and wipe out 60'x15' worth of charging orcs in the span of 6 seconds. Or being thrown off a 200'+ cliff and surviving. If you've read the original source material for King Arthur, there are battles between knight and giant which last hours, and entire acres of land are soaked in both their blood. Superhuman fantasy is awesome!
Look, the post 2 back (about falling damage etc.) I totally agree with, and always have, and never said anything to the contrary, yet the tone suggests you're trying to debate with me. My response to that post can only be "yeah, and...?"
Hence, what I say about assumptions, invented sentiments and so on. But there's more in the quoted stuff which is what really hammers that nail down.
Okay, shower. TTYS
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How the above got favorited, multiple times, is surprising.
If you're that surprised by what is clearly a somewhat popular reaction to your posts, you might want to continue taking a step back and seeing if you're not coming off quite as you intended.
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I've only seen season 1, but from what I've seen, it will likely work well without insulting either PF or Slayers.
May have already been done, though. Ah! You mean you start with this and ... aha. Now I'm quite sure this will work.
I've only seen season 1, but from what I've seen, it will likely work well without insulting either PF or Slayers.
May have already been done, though. Ah! You mean you start with this and ... aha. Now I'm quite sure this will work.
Yes, I really like the magic system they introduced. I hope it will work too! It is very high powered but would work with the right players/GM.
Yes, I really like the magic system they introduced. I hope it will work too! It is very high powered but would work with the right players/GM.
I've only seen season 1, but from what I've seen, it will likely work well without insulting either PF or Slayers.
May have already been done, though. Ah! You mean you start with this and ... aha. Now I'm quite sure this will work.
Even for public consumption it may work fine. The genres mesh, and GoO (the guys who made BESM; hooray for them creating different game setting/ruleset variants for different series) got the Slayers license and applied it to d20. Assuming they managed to model the kinds of spells and abilities accurately, PF-izing it should be a very workable task, without requiring a ton of work.
How the above got favorited, multiple times, is surprising.If you're that surprised by what is clearly a somewhat popular reaction to your posts, you might want to continue taking a step back and seeing if you're not coming off quite as you intended.
We need to be less subtle:
OP - don't be condescending, don't be insulting, don't tell others how to play the game. In short: Don't be a jerk. Being a jerk is against the board policy.
You may be replicating work that has already been done. I dont recall the actual website but there is a japanese D&D website with its own campaign setting (The Japanese Pathfinder). They seem to have a detailed D&D game with lots of Manga.
I'm not designing a roleplaying game. I have no fear whatsoever that my particular idea has been done. Not that there's anything new under the sun, but my particular thingy is pretty unique. Unique and fun enough to guard jealously. I actually have a patent pending.
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Have you ever tried Anima Beyond Fantasy?
I know it's not d20 system it's d100 (%) type of system but it does IMHO a great job to emulate pretty well most of the typical Anime things you expect to see or find in a game.
If I remember correctly it has about 10-15 different "jobs/profession". They cover everything from the ninja with magic abilities to the common rogue, warrior, dark knight, paladins, summoners, mages, martial artist with different martial arts like shotokan, kempo, aikido, kung fu or wrestling just to name a few of them.
Fantasy Flight Games has published about 3 expansions for it also.
This is just a suggestion just in case you don't mind it to be in other system that is not d20.
You can port d100 to d20 also with a bit more accuracy, since I think there are rules on how to do the d20 to d100 in the basic book also close to the end.
OP - don't be condescending, don't be insulting, don't tell others how to play the game. In short: Don't be a jerk. Being a jerk is against the board policy.
Thank you for saying this so soon after your previous post. Such irony is not lost on me.
In the post where you directly attacked me, claiming I drank "haterade" and went on a "crusade", you are wrong about the proverbial mission statement. Your entire attack on me is based on falsehood. I won't bother re-iterating, but let me help you anyway:
Drop hyper-reactivity, open your mind and re-read the OP. All of it. Don't pick out only the parts which support such an emotionally negative knee-jerk reaction, while neglecting others. Does it say I'm against powergaming? Against people adding to PF for their pleasure? What does it say?
If you're not sure, and since you like going through my profile so much, look at my other posts on this thread. Do they paint a picture of 1-dimensional closed-minded "haterade"-chugger? I claim that you were far too quick to judge, and far too quick to attack. Did you even bother to read this before responding?
people are misreading the what could qualify as the "TL;DR"; the intent of the OP. I'm not saying "never do it". Words which cater to possibilities and exceptions are all over my posts, from the OP onward... but my deferral to these possibilities is totally missed by many responders. I'm saying "most media doesn't port over well. If it doesn't, don't embarrass yourself by thinking it does."
Please respond to what was written, and in proper context. I'm sure you'll see it differently.
Have you ever tried Anima Beyond Fantasy?
I know it's not d20 system it's d100 (%) type of system but it does IMHO a great job to emulate pretty well most of the typical Anime things you expect to see or find in a game.
If I remember correctly it has about 10-15 different "jobs/profession". They cover everything from the ninja with magic abilities to the common rogue, warrior, dark knight, paladins, summoners, mages, martial artist with different martial arts like shotokan, kempo, aikido, kung fu or wrestling just to name a few of them.
Fantasy Flight Games has published about 3 expansions for it also.
This is just a suggestion just in case you don't mind it to be in other system that is not d20.
You can port d100 to d20 also with a bit more accuracy, since I think there are rules on how to do the d20 to d100 in the basic book also close to the end.
I've been interested in Anima for a while now, but haven't been able to find anyone who actually plays it. I was hoping to find a game at Gen Con this year, but no luck.
It looks good, and the production values are through the roof, especially the art. My one complaint so far is (ironically) the opposite of the complaint many have of Pathfinder, namely that Anima's setting is ridiculously overdeveloped. The books I've seen spend so much time developing its absurdly complicated metaplot that there doesn't seem to be anything for low-level characters to do.
Check out Anima Beyond Fantasy
Curious. Can't say I'm very interested, as I'm not looking for another system, but it does look like a quality product. The stylization of it looks nice, and the art looks great.
I admit, I have no idea where such confidence comes from.
The best part about what you just said here, knowing your superhuman powers of dry sarcasm, is that this can be taken any way I want. That said:
I know. ;)
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Yes the detail with Anima Beyond Fantasy ( I play it a bit)
Is the crunch factor there is A LOT to digest and it might seem hard at first but it actually isn't.
The reality of it is that you have SO MANY character options and ways to do things is the problem, you have so much to choose from and mechanics.
Anima players must think first what they really want to play and their GM points them out to the mechanics just remember to go to classes to start character creation.
There are missions for "low-level" it's just that the setting is high power even from level one.
Edit: Well it was just a suggestion that might help you get some ideas to take and make them into d20.
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Game balance is maintained, despite the source content, creating a disappointing shadow of the intended content; an embarrassing knock-off which only the worst fanboys would appreciate or consider playing.
Heh, we used to call this making a "Takara" version... ah, the good old days of Video Gaming... ^_^
Mutants and Masterminds released a book (I believe in 2010) called "Mecha and Manga" that pretty much allows the player to create most of the genres of anime. The entire system of M&M is built to deal with a large range of different powers and concepts.
Mutants and Masterminds released a book (I believe in 2010) called "Mecha and Manga" that pretty much allows the player to create most of the genres of anime. The entire system of M&M is built to deal with a large range of different powers and concepts.
Every time I've seen a game system which claimed to cover multiple genres in one book, it's always been disappointing. So much so that I can't help but imagine the authors as creatively lazy people trying to make a quick buck off of naive kids. Many years ago (10 or more), I was one of those naive kids, buying BESM, and after really reading the book, I realized how limited it was and lost interest instantly.
There are other games, like GURPS or Rolemaster, whose products suggest their understanding that you can't fit multiple genres in one book. You have to split it out to do any justice to the material. For example, if I saw "Dragonball Law" or "Gundam Law" from ICE, I'd wager it would be done well, whereas "Mecha Law" would cover lots of different kinds of series, from Gundam to Macross to Hades Project to Hellzone 23... I would instantly doubt its quality unless it was a substantially thick book.
For a great space opera with mecha (which could easily be a manga/anime series) I love Jovian Chronicles by DP9, and even Heavy Gear by the same company. They pick a genre, have a nice mechanics system with cinematic optional rules, and make it work very well.
Mutants and Masterminds released a book (I believe in 2010) called "Mecha and Manga" that pretty much allows the player to create most of the genres of anime. The entire system of M&M is built to deal with a large range of different powers and concepts.Every time I've seen a game system which claimed to cover multiple genres in one book, it's always been disappointing. So much so that I can't help but imagine the authors as creatively lazy people trying to make a quick buck off of naive kids. Many years ago (10 or more), I was one of those naive kids, buying BESM, and after really reading the book, I realized how limited it was and lost interest instantly.
There are other games, like GURPS or Rolemaster, whose products suggest their understanding that you can't fit multiple genres in one book. You have to split it out to do any justice to the material. For example, if I saw "Dragonball Law" or "Gundam Law" from ICE, I'd wager it would be done well, whereas "Mecha Law" would cover lots of different kinds of series, from Gundam to Macross to Hades Project to Hellzone 23... I would instantly doubt its quality unless it was a substantially thick book.
For a great space opera with mecha (which could easily be a manga/anime series) I love Jovian Chronicles by DP9, and even Heavy Gear by the same company. They pick a genre, have a nice mechanics system with cinematic optional rules, and make it work very well.
Mutants and Masterminds IS a good system to design various Japanese pop culture heroes in--as it is a good system to design all kinds of heroes in.
I own Mecha and Manga---it is actually a pretty good book. It covers popular genres of anime/manga pretty well and provides guidelines to build the most common tropes you will find. Yes, it is broad and general, but it makes no attempt to say "YOU CAN MAKE EVERY ANIME" with this--but it's actually a decent source to provide ideas of common "anime-inspired" campaigns I've seen. It doesn't need to get into nitty gritty details for every kind of game because M&M is broad based enough, you can figure it out for yourself how any given genre/story you want to imitate with the system. And indeed, you don't even need Mecha and Manga--it just provides some particular ideas and premade templates and items and the like. I started building Read or Die characters (a spy/superhero seinen series) in M&M before Mecha and Manga ever came out and it worked out just great.
If it ain't your cup of tea, fine, but having read the material, I would say it actually would be very useful to many players interested in an "anime-style" game (again, understanding that is a hugely, almost ridiculously broad brush--let me say, for those interested in running games in the following genres: gun bunny, martial arts with mystic abilities, magical girl, superhero, future with mechs, dystopic future, cops and/or spies in contemporary or future settings, and likely lots of things I'm forgetting).
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I don't think anyone has yet pointed out this little gem, so I thought I'd share:
Media focuses on just a handful of characters. RPGs inherently cannot.
Thus your threshold of 'mirrors X perfectly so fanboys love it' is so impossible as to be a false test. You simply cannot take a narrative that is intended to depict superhuman examples of a world and make that into a viable RPG. Imagine the horrible mess the campaign would be if you DID succeed. Something like this, I'd imagine.
Why?
Because of the limits. RPGs set limits based on their rule sets. (And in this vein I very much agree with Kirth Gersen. Get too far away from balance and limits and the 'G' at the end of that acronym gets very, very soft. Is 'Cops and Robbers' an RPG?) Narratives, be they movies, novels, or whatever, set limits as they're being created. Characters do stupid things, power levels are over nine thousand, and so on. These types of shenanigans are typically tossed in the 'game breaking' and/or 'not fun' categories by players of an RPG, but happen in every single narrative ever. Anime is no exception. What keeps those stories plausible and entertaining simply can't work in a world where there are thousands of different players all tugging at the limits of the system.
Social contract, and all that.
I don't think anyone has yet pointed out this little gem, so I thought I'd share:
Media focuses on just a handful of characters. RPGs inherently cannot.
Thus your threshold of 'mirrors X perfectly so fanboys love it' is so impossible as to be a false test. You simply cannot take a narrative that is intended to depict superhuman examples of a world and make that into a viable RPG. Imagine the horrible mess the campaign would be if you DID succeed. Something like this, I'd imagine.
Why?
Because of the limits. RPGs set limits based on their rule sets. (And in this vein I very much agree with Kirth Gersen. Get too far away from balance and limits and the 'G' at the end of that acronym gets very, very soft. Is 'Cops and Robbers' an RPG?) Narratives, be they movies, novels, or whatever, set limits as they're being created. Characters do stupid things, power levels are over nine thousand, and so on. These types of shenanigans are typically tossed in the 'game breaking' and/or 'not fun' categories by players of an RPG, but happen in every single narrative ever. Anime is no exception. What keeps those stories plausible and entertaining simply can't work in a world where there are thousands of different players all tugging at the limits of the system.
Social contract, and all that.
Cops and Robbers isn't an RPG. Its a LARP. Your getting up and running arround, using the scenery.
You don't really need any rules to play an RPG. They help some people, but there are RPGs with fewer rules than Barrnon Munchousen.And not everyone is playing in organized play. In fact, I would wager to bet that the vast majority of players do not. You don't need a ballanced system when you are not playing with outside groups. Most players I want to play with don't care about ballance, and asymetrical games can be a lot of fun when done right.
You don't need a ballanced system when you are not playing with outside groups. Most players I want to play with don't care about ballance, and asymetrical games can be a lot of fun when done right.
This is very true. This truth is also snuck into my OP rant, by simply saying that sharing a port is often embarrassing. The wording was chosen carefully, specifically, to exclude ports for personal use as a bad thing. Also, risking embarrassment among friends is a manageable thing because you can work together to make it work for your group
I, for one, run wildly imbalanced games. When I design a game, I ignore balance, because I know that
That said, I instead aim for the narrative and the fun. It often ends up leading to power games, which is like a bad addiction for me, but ~shrug~ meh.
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You don't need a ballanced system when you are not playing with outside groups. Most players I want to play with don't care about ballance, and asymetrical games can be a lot of fun when done right.This is very true. This truth is also snuck into my OP rant, by simply saying that sharing a port is often embarrassing. The wording was chosen carefully, specifically, to exclude ports for personal use as a bad thing. Also, risking embarrassment among friends is a manageable thing because you can work together to make it work for your group
I, for one, run wildly imbalanced games. When I design a game, I ignore balance, because I know that
Balance, true balance, is a ghost you can chase but never catch. Balance does not make a game inherently better. Any GM/DM worth his or her salt knows how to make an imbalanced game fun for all participants.
That said, I instead aim for the narrative and the fun. It often ends up leading to power games, which is like a bad addiction for me, but ~shrug~ meh.
There's a word for imbalanced private games: 'favoritism'.
'Unfair' also works.
Your inside group gets the awesome stuff, the outsiders get screwed. When you're the receiving the benefit of it, I can certainly see how you wouldn't object. But if you're on the other end, that's likely a different story.
"You are not as awesome as me" is an untestable assertion, and I cannot except that as an argument against such a logical notion as fairness.
There's a word for imbalanced private games: 'favoritism'.
'Unfair' also works.
If such an oversimplification is also implying better or worse, then you're very incorrect.
Imbalance is imbalance.
Unfairness is unfairness.
Also, I think you meant that you can't "accept" the argument, which you apparently need clarification on.
Any GM/DM worth his or her salt knows how to make an imbalanced game fun for all participants.
This means that, if one character is exceptionally more powerful than the others, the GM makes in-game justification for in-game responses to the imbalance.
As an example, if one character has vast combat power compared to the rest, the GM makes situations where this OP character is the only one strong enough to occupy an enemy while the others go ahead & save the day. Or the GM creates an enemy who is strong, but has a weakness which one of the less OP characters can exploit.
In other words, a good GM will offset the imbalance of the characters by altering the balance of the situations, or creating situations/obstacle for everyone to contribute in their own way. Weaknesses and strengths, which create imbalance, also create roles. It's the GM's job to ensure that all these roles have a part to play in the game.
The beauty is, the vast majority of the time that there's imbalance, it also means there are different flavors of abilities or skill sets. The goon is obviously all about fighting, but the non-goons are about stealth, or technology, or what have you. A party composed of a super soldier, a master of disguise, and a world class computer hacker is, in my mind, an "imbalanced party" because only one guy will be of major use in a combat, while the others struggle to survive. But a good GM can have all three doing intense and rewarding things, in the same room, at the same time.
A party composed of a super soldier, a master of disguise, and a world class computer hacker is, in my mind, an "imbalanced party" because only one guy will be of major use in a combat, while the others struggle to survive.
In a standard Pathdfinder game, that would be an extremely imbalanced group, because the poor computer hacker is specialized in a skill that doesn't even exist in the campaign setting, and the disguise guy keeps getting sent into dungeons full of monsters who eat anyone they meet, disguised or not.
In a James Bond 007 game, that would be an EXTREMELY well-balanced party, because they all have areas of focus which are roughly equivalent in importance in those rules.
Most often, imbalance in D&D/PF looks more like this, and it's pretty glaring. Even under a skilled GM, it feels enormously contrived and gets tired after a couple of sessions.
That's a great Shadowrun group, too. A Street Samurai, a Face, and a Hacker/Rigger. Perfect. Could use a Mage, but usually either the Face can hire one for the jobs that really need 'em or the Hacker can substitute.
... as I shed another tear for the Shadowrun game that houstonderek never quite got off the ground.
I once played in a homebrew system where the GM made a stat we could buy points in without telling us what it did. I maxed the stat. It was inversely proportional to its actual power in game, since the stat represented how stable the character was in their views of reality, in a game about re-writing reality by shear willpower. A high stat meant you believed newtonian physics were immutable, so you had no power to do crazy s~$$. Meanwhile, the characters who put nothing in the stat could re-write reality to their whim, allowing them to do whatever they wanted. Effectively, every point spent in the stat made you weaker.
I maxed the stat. I was by far the weakest person in the party, having paid a bunch of points for what ammounted to a flaw. I loved that game, and would gladly make that choice again.
The same GM had run annother game where he told the players the mechanics, and then told them to build the character they wanted, assigning numbers as they saw fit. He would then tell them how many points in flaws he felth they should have. Flaws were not that big of a deal though, and actually were benneficial in a lot of ways. They were more RP flaws than actual bad things. Effectively it was a point buy where the GM arbitrarily assigned points. In that game, he told me afterwards that he hadn't realized how mediocre the stats I assigned were, and I was probably the weakest character (of 15). My character was probably the most powerful at the end, even with the worste stats. Creativity balances stats so much.
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A party composed of a super soldier, a master of disguise, and a world class computer hacker is, in my mind, an "imbalanced party" because only one guy will be of major use in a combat, while the others struggle to survive.In a standard Pathdfinder game, that would be an extremely imbalanced group, because the poor computer hacker is specialized in a skill that doesn't even exist in the campaign setting, and the disguise guy keeps getting sent into dungeons full of monsters who eat anyone they meet, disguised or not.
In a James Bond 007 game, that would be an EXTREMELY well-balanced party, because they all have areas of focus which are roughly equivalent in importance in those rules.
Most often, imbalance in D&D/PF looks more like this, and it's pretty glaring. Even under a skilled GM, it feels enormously contrived and gets tired after a couple of sessions.
Yes, that's very much my point as well. If you ignore balance, using only the excuse that it will never be perfect, you wind up with situations like RIFTS' Vagabond vs Hatchling Dragons. Or Superman and Spiderman. They don't belong in the same story, assuming that everyone is at the table to play an equal.
I empathize with the desire to keep things from being too bland and vanilla, I really do. But 'bang I shot you' isn't an RPG. They're intended to have systems for resolving conflicts and it is usually expected that equal opportunity exists for all the characters in the books. Getting away from that isn't in any way wrong, but it isn't what I would call a 'game'. It's too arbitrary for that descriptor.
Creativity balances stats so much.
I'd say that creativity and stats are only tangentially related. In this case, you're minimizing the importance of stats by focusing only on the creative aspects and hiding everything else under the rug.
Imagine a 1st level commoner PC and a 15th level wizard PC. The players have a great time, and never have a problem with balance, because instead of sending their characters through dungeons or wilderness adventures or whatever, they spend each session drawing pictures of their PC and his home, relatives, etc. Creativity isn't balancing the stats so much as it's eclipsing them.
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Effectively it was a point buy where the GM arbitrarily assigned points. In that game, he told me afterwards that he hadn't realized how mediocre the stats I assigned were, and I was probably the weakest character (of 15). My character was probably the most powerful at the end, even with the worste stats. Creativity balances stats so much.
So long as you're having fun your time isn't wasted. Still, though, a GM increasing your character's power without reflecting that in the mechanics has gone 'off the rails'. That's fine, but few can do it reliably, and I suspect even that GM may get mixed results from time to time.
I once did a similar open-format fantasy game using the d6 system. Stats 1 through 6 were the standard stuff. Stat 7 was for 'specials'. Magic for the wizard, gargoyle traits, vampire traits, etc. The balance of that system was in the opposed checks of the stats. The vampire could roll his 2d+2 Domination against an opponents 3d willpower. It worked. The biggest danger, though, was in keeping those powers equivalent to skills in that same vein.
I guess I'm saying I prefer to rely on the design of the game to handle this sort of thing, and failing that will always fall back on some kind of measurement. YMMV.
Yes, that's very much my point as well. If you ignore balance, using only the excuse that it will never be perfect, you wind up with situations like RIFTS' Vagabond vs Hatchling Dragons. Or Superman and Spiderman. They don't belong in the same story, assuming that everyone is at the table to play an equal.
That's ironic. When I refer to the imbalanced games I ran, I generally think of all the Rifts and Heroes Unlimited games.
The Palladium system caters very well to imbalanced parties.
For example, XP is rewarded by accomplishment and by challenge on an individual basis. A foe that's easy for a Hatchling is overpowering for a Vagabond, plus the Vagabond needs 1/5th the XP that a Hatchling does to level. Granted, the benefits of leveling up in Palladium are a lower impact.
For another example, PB is very much a skills based game system, and also a very setting-influenced game. The dragon wouldn't be able to contribute in the infiltration of a Coalition States outpost (the psi-stalkers & dog boys'll sniff him out from half a mile away, literally!), where the Vagabond could blend in perfectly. This isn't contrived at all in my mind; it's part of the setting itself.
For a superheroes genre... well in my last one there was a supernatural spellcasting PC who could literally take out a planet, another who was an immortal super soldier in dimension-shifting alien power armor, and a martial artist with guns. The kung fu guy with guns was pretty much window dressing... or so it seemed: Over a few games, he went from zero to hero by picking out a decent Chi mastery technique and computer hacking skills, and plotted a plausible way to become disgustingly rich off a BBEG. Self-made, and awesome. He was still technically "overshadowed" by the planet-destroying demon mage and power armored super soldier, but it was easy to give everyone some very satisfying challenges. He just found different ways to shine.
Creativity balances stats so much.I'd say that creativity and stats are only tangentially related. In this case, you're minimizing the importance of stats by focusing only on the creative aspects and hiding everything else under the rug.
Imagine a 1st level commoner PC and a 15th level wizard PC. The players have a great time, and never have a problem with balance, because instead of sending their characters through dungeons or wilderness adventures or whatever, they spend each session drawing pictures of their PC and his home, relatives, etc. Creativity isn't balancing the stats so much as it's eclipsing them.
Not every game is about going off and fighting things. And you don't have to resort to overexagerated examples. Pathfinder is a bad system to explain this in, but its more like giving 1 person a 10 point build and annother a 50, and staying at low levels. Some people will like that game. They enjoy the challenge of dealing with their flaws. Other players want to feel superior to others. This can bennefit both players. If your game isn't focused on the ways that the players are superior, for instance in a mostly diplomatic or explorative game allowing a combat monster, it isn't that big of a deal. You can easily let that player shine every once in a while, even though they do not take over the game. They can protect all of the other players from an attack, win favor for the group through a duel, intimidate enemies to get information, or countless other things. The only problems really come when the player specializes and then doesn't pick up on the cues for them to jump in or feels like they shouldn't contribute outside their specialty, which I have seen happen. You can get some dissolusioned players that way, but I find those players tend to get that way no matter who the GM or players are, or what style of game is played.