I usually give the players plenty of leeway in making characters as to me, its a game for fun, make a character that you will enjoy.
One player has decided he wants to make a lycanthrope character, and I am worried it might completely throw off the balance of the party and game. It reminds me of a botched attempt to play Drow Nobles, that ended with the characters breezing through too many encounters. Is the Lycanthrope the same in power? He volunteered to give up the DR, but wanted to be able to use the two-weapon fighting feat chain, thus giving him a boat load of attacks. This plus the +2 to str, con, wise and a -2 to Cha, plus the initial racial modifiers makes for a brutal character. (imagined this on a barbarian who rages).
Simply, I am looking for people who have tried the were-... and to know if it is too powerful.
Thanks.
I can't say that I've tried it, but I can say yes. A were is going to be too powerful. Unless you let everyone else play something potent and raise the threat level of the game.
And this coming from someone who has allowed a centaur in game using Savage Species style advancement.
PF got rid of level adjustments, and for good cause: early boons just don't tend to matter in the higher levels. Instead it's up to you, the DM, to decide how powerful the character is and adjust accordingly. An easy way to do this is to look at the monster's CR and add 1 to determine the rough "level."
Synergy is another thing to pay attention to as well. If a character is monopolizing on the monster's strengths you should probably treat it as higher CR when estimating level, like a fighter with a high strength race.
As far as the were races being too powerful, it depends. If you can keep your players at relatively equal power levels it won't be an issue. You can compensate by offering stat boosts to weaker characters, or bonus feats, etc. I'd avoid giving them levels as that sort of thing really imbalances the system later on.
Basically, keep your group equal (relatively) and adjust the campaign to suit the characters. Easy peasy.
A lot of the Were's bonuses are situational too (IE, have to be in Hybrid form)
If he gives up the DR, that's a huge cut in an were's power. Also, shifting every fight might not be the best move, if you have NPC's play up a fear of Weres.
Also, what were does he want to be? A Weretiger is WAAY more powerful then a Wererat. The rat might give him a dex boost, depending on what he plays, but his con and str probably won't increase from the Hybrid forms baseline stats.
It also comes down to the maturity of the group and the player specifically. In some Star Wars games I've run in the past I've had one player play the Jedi Knight/Master while others have played a Padawan character with several levels difference between them. But the players understood and the Master took to the mentor role and didn't always power through a situation and deny a 'learning opportunity' to his charges.
That could be something you could do here (I have no idea about your group specifics). You could either just go whole hog and make the Were PC a higher level that is 'shepherding' the new set of adventures.
Or you go the other way and make the other adventurers more 'senior' characters, bump them up and have them take on the new recruit that has potential, but is still green. The Were abilities could give him could survivability so he doesn't get smoked by accident.
Both options can play off solid fantasy tropes and if the lower level characters have 2 Hero Points they even have a free 'whoops, nope, I didn't just die' avoidance mechanic.
And a more subtle way to potentially balance things if you want to keep the group at the same level would be to give the Non-weres more traits and/or some of the Hero point feats for free so they can earn more per level and/or have a chance to not lose them when they are used. While Hero points don't quite match to the raw stat boosts you can get with some templates, they tend to come into play when everything is on the line so its a solid boost when the chips are down.
Don't forget that PF were- are only a +1 CR, and don't have the huge stat shifts that 3.x did.
Rule wise, if i understand what your PC is saying, is he wants to get the TWF chain to get iterative attacks with the natural weapons granted by hybrid form?
I'd say no to that myself, unless you as a DM started giving all your monsters iterative attacks with their own natural weapons as well. T-rex full attack bite 3 times! munch munch munch.
As written, he should be able to weapon wield and make a bite or free hand claw attack(if his type of were- granted them) at -5. (-2 with Multiattack Feat) Multiattack Feat is not normally available to PC's but it is one i would allow to a player.
Also you need to determine if he would be an Infected or Natural were-. An infected were- has to make rolls to shift voluntarily and also has bad times during full moons.
I'd dock him a level for the Were- template(because of the +1 CR), meaning he'd always be 1 lower then the rest of the party.
Honestly a raging max 20 Str base barb at level 1 can already do 20+ damage regularly with a scary hit bonus, so adding 2-3 more damage from +2 more strength on top of it doesn't change the splatter dynamic much at all.
If he is wanting to claw/claw/bite, well, he gets basically 2 1d6+8 attacks and 1 1d8+8 damage attack on a full round(assuming his Were- gives 2 claws and a bite, like a tiger.), which is also heft at level 1, but will never scale into more attacks as he levels. He'd actually do less damage by the level 11 range, possibly even by level 6. (two handed weapon/power attack is the melee damage king as it is.) EDIT: also be prepared for 'tricks' like getting enlarge person/etc to further jump damage dice to push the pure damage done even higher.
Those are my thoughts on it, hope they help!
The real problem is going to be his monthly killing sprees, isn't it?
I guess that the Player wants be play a natural Lycanthrope as opposed to an afflicted Lycanthrope.
However one problem still remains and that is that the character will affect anyone with Lycantrohpy that he bites.
That and the fact that Hybrid form is pretty powerful:
+2 Str, Con, Wis
-2 Cha
DR 10/silver
+2 natural armor
+1 primary natural attack (which never gets any iteratives!)
Over the top even without the DR!
I would suggest him playing a toothy Orc Barbarian instead. With the right build (see APG) and just minimal GM fiat you can have an natural attacking PC by Level 5 that is quite powerful.
Now is a good time to point out Curse of the Moon by Paizo's own SKR.
http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/s/seanKReynoldsGames/v5748btpy84e9&sou rce=search
This book offers a bunch of insight and helpful mechanics for doing exactly what you want.
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The real problem is going to be his monthly killing sprees, isn't it?I guess that the Player wants be play a natural Lycanthrope as opposed to an afflicted Lycanthrope.
However one problem still remains and that is that the character will affect anyone with Lycantrohpy that he bites.
That and the fact that Hybrid form is pretty powerful:
+2 Str, Con, Wis
-2 Cha
DR 10/silver
+2 natural armor
+1 primary natural attack (which never gets any iteratives!)Over the top even without the DR!
I would suggest him playing a toothy Orc Barbarian instead. With the right build (see APG) and just minimal GM fiat you can have an natural attacking PC by Level 5 that is quite powerful.
He could even re-skin it as a 'wolfman'.
I've seen numerous references to Paizo's inhouse GMs filing-off-the-serial-numbers for NPCs. Doing thst for PCs shouldn't be too much of a leap.
If the game is big on pc/npc interaction then the shapeshifting can have a big effect on the game. Pretty humiliating for other players to have maxed-out bluff and disguise and the shapeshifter can effortlessly be someone else. Wolfman all the time solves this.
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Now is a good time to point out Curse of the Moon by Paizo's own SKR.
Linkificated for your edification!
This book offers a bunch of insight and helpful mechanics for doing exactly what you want.
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The real problem is going to be his monthly killing sprees, isn't it?I guess that the Player wants be play a natural Lycanthrope as opposed to an afflicted Lycanthrope.
However one problem still remains and that is that the character will affect anyone with Lycantrohpy that he bites.
That and the fact that Hybrid form is pretty powerful:
+2 Str, Con, Wis
-2 Cha
DR 10/silver
+2 natural armor
+1 primary natural attack (which never gets any iteratives!)Over the top even without the DR!
I would suggest him playing a toothy Orc Barbarian instead. With the right build (see APG) and just minimal GM fiat you can have an natural attacking PC by Level 5 that is quite powerful.
This right here is the biggest problem and easiest solution to this issue. A natural Lycanthrope is bordering on too powerful for the early game (up to level 10) but an Afflicted werewolf is much more inline with PC power levels.
The lycanthrope template is really not that big of a power bump, on average it's a +1 damage, +1 HP/level and a slight AC bump. The DR is the biggest advantage this template gives but the afflicted version (5/silver) is low enough to not really overpower the game once you get past 4th level on average.
There are only 3 things you must keep an eye on with a player who decides to go Lycanthrope (or natural weapon user).
1. Monk or unarmed fighter levels.
The synergy between improved unarmed strikes and natural attacks (especially for Monk Levels) is really high and you can easily by 6th level have a player doing 6 attacks a round at greater then 3D6+X damage per hit all at Bab-2 (only the last attack would be at bab -7)
2. Movement, most of the lycanthropic forms have very high movement rates that stack with movement increasing effects/feats/spells. A regular werewolf can take a move action to switch forms charge 50' to get into melee range with any opponent and attack. This makes it hard to use ranged characters or casters against a lycanthrope. (throw on a few levels of monk or barbarian and they can maintain a combat patrol of the entire battlefield).
3. Polymorph spells, while they are shapechanged they are effectively immune to all polymorph effects (they can choose to allow it and dismiss it at will by changing shape again) this is potentially a ver powerful immunity depending on how your campaign runs.
the only recommendation I can give you are:
A). If you decide to let them play a werewolf make sure they are an afflicted type and make sure to enforce the Control Shape skill.
This will let you handle the PC just like the typical Wild Raging Barbarian with only the most minor adjustments.
B). Take into account the high mobility and immunities the lycanthrope template gives when setting up encounters. They are easy to work with you just need to stay aware of them.
Now is a good time to point out Curse of the Moon by Paizo's own SKR.
Linkificated for your edification!
This book offers a bunch of insight and helpful mechanics for doing exactly what you want.
Thanks. I just forgot to do it and the preview looked right because I use a Firefox add-on that turns all URLs into clickable links.
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Agree with the inflicted, and I'd play into that hard. Lycanthropy is a curse, and he should want rid of it...
Also, I agree that allowing attack types to stack is way too munchkin. I'm curious as to the actual rules, but just as I'd not allow TWF and bows, I'm not going in for monks that bite. Not outside of a world where were-monks have an established fighting style and school.
In short, mind the drawbacks and limit stacking that results in power shortcuts. If the were-ness gives something attainable otherwise, then I'd permit it. But not otherwise, even though that makes me a stick-in-the-mud GM.
I'm surprised no one has brought it up, but the last Wayfinder as I recall has a Barbarian Alternate variant called Wolf Shifter which plays with the idea of being a lycanthrope-like character by spreading much of the advantages of being a werewolf along a 20 level advancement track & removes the whole infectious element. Basically your trading Rage for (a somewhat nerfed) wolf-transformation. It's what I've been offering my players when they bring up the desire for wanting to run Lycanthropes in my games (though no one has taken me up on it yet, so I haven't seen how one works in play).
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I'm surprised no one has brought it up, but the last Wayfinder as I recall has a Barbarian Alternate variant called Wolf Shifter which plays with the idea of being a lycanthrope-like character by spreading much of the advantages of being a werewolf along a 20 level advancement track & removes the whole infectious element.
Do you trust the balance from such sources for a thing as important as a character class? I'm not sure I do.
Tried it. It worked out good, no problems with it.
In a current game I am DMing I have a afflicted werewolf character. I don't know anything about your game or what the circumstances surrounding it are but for mine the affliction is an actual curse.
As my players are still low I balked at the natural lycanthrope template. Thus far it's not an issue and he plans to use his hybrid abilities only if he has to (as I'm enforcing the "alignment shift when changed" - letting the beast out could end up being dangerous for the party after all).
This campaign is highly RP/Social and everyone has secret motivations so it might not work for yours. The restrictions are also due to campaign issues. Depending on the campaign a lycanthrope could work or it could be an unbalancing factor.
Give it a try if you think it could work in the story and learn :)
Not really, at least not for the campaign that just ended. One of my characters, my cohort actually, was bitten by a werewolf and failed the save. We played it out that the first X number of times she could not control it, but later Could be in control if she chose to transform. If it was the full moon and she didn't choose to transform, she was full blown lycanthrope and I had no control over her. But in hybrid form I did. While she is powerful indeed, it is a problem when she transforms and just goes on a rampage and as a player you can't do anything. It would mean the potential party killing the PC, but that is a risk you take when your a werewolf traveling with a party.
Simply, I am looking for people who have tried the were-... and to know if it is too powerful.
Thanks.
In our Legacy of Fire campaign one of the players (a rogue) picked up lycanthropy due to a wound from a magic weapon somehow, not clear on the item's stats. Anyways, it's a pretty powerful form of lycanthropy werejaguar or something - but she's effectively a weretiger. We haven't noticed any particular over-poweredness. All of us are old hands at D&D, and besides my martial character being a little jealous its been a non-issue.
Also, since it was afflicted lycanthropy and not natural lycanthropy, the PC in question evidently had to take 2 feats to make it useful. (It's difficult to control the change if you're afflicted, you might make your player agree to that in order to gain the template)
I'm surprised no one has brought it up, but the last Wayfinder as I recall has a Barbarian Alternate variant called Wolf Shifter which plays with the idea of being a lycanthrope-like character by spreading much of the advantages of being a werewolf along a 20 level advancement track & removes the whole infectious element.Do you trust the balance from such sources for a thing as important as a character class? I'm not sure I do.
Sure I do. I frequently have let players try out 3pp Classes in my games without any trouble. Then again, I've found core/paizo authorized material I've raised an eyebrow to and wondered just how balanced it might be (witness this very thread).
I certainly would rather deal with a player running a level 2 Wolf Shifter PC in my game than a 1st level natural Lycanthrope Barbarian in a low-level game (mid to higher level games I suspect it increasingly wouldn't be that much of an issue).