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I've been trying to convince my DM to switch to piecemeal armor by the time we are level 10, which is still a number of levels from now (we just made 4th), though he's pretty much only thrown things at us that we can casually handle thus far, large category spiders, goblins, and hobgoblins.
I will admit, the other players in my group have done their level best to get dead though, our Cavalier managed to get himself put to negative HP last session.
Is Legends as Items in UC? Or possibly UM? I gotta get me dem books.
No; Piecemeal armor, called shots, and armor as DR are all too messed up to use.
I will admit, the other players in my group have done their level best to get dead though, our Cavalier managed to get himself put to negative HP last session.
Must be a Cavalier thing. Ours did the same thing last Friday.
We're currently playing strict PFS rules through a Carrion Crown campaign right now. Hoping to try some of those out afterwards.
No; Piecemeal armor, called shots, and armor as DR are all too messed up to use.
I wouldn't say that. These are variant rules. They are mainly for campaign flavor. I can see certain campaigns running with any of these rules, but the feel of others may make any of the variants seem broken.
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I will admit, the other players in my group have done their level best to get dead though, our Cavalier managed to get himself put to negative HP last session.Must be a Cavalier thing. Ours did the same thing last Friday.
We're currently playing strict PFS rules through a Carrion Crown campaign right now. Hoping to try some of those out afterwards.
Currently I blame bad luck and a lousy healer. He got hit with a critical shot from a longbow and our oracle doesn't take hints very well, by that I mean I was literally yelling at her to heal him before this had happened.
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I am considering creating an adventure that starts the players out in the arena so I plan on utilizing the performace stuff. Since this was written after the core I am looking through it to perhaps add some performance flare to previous feats or see how things will match up.
I was thinking of opening up the called shot rules to anyone that takes weapon finesse, to offset the fact that in general a dex melee fighter does not seem to have the damage output of a str one. I will probably play test this concept in a few one-shots first though.
No; Piecemeal armor, called shots, and armor as DR are all too messed up to use.
How are called shots borked?
No; Piecemeal armor, called shots, and armor as DR are all too messed up to use.How are called shots borked?
I rather like the idea of the called shots, the idea that a ranger character for example would be aiming his shots for maximum impact rather than just shooting wherever he can hit makes sense. The manner in which the effects take place are also nicely done, and the increase in effect also makes sense.
I have to admit I am going to be using the called shots mechanic in the game I am going to start running soon, am curious what the players will make of it.
I'm going to be using Called Shots.
I'm open to using piecemeal armor but will introduce it slowly, I think.
I'm taking a hard look at Wounds & Vigor. I like it better than any prior attempts at Wounds/Vitality and my gut says it'll improve my games. I'm still trying to work through the implications, especially ones that aren't immediately apparent. I would have liked some sidebars or additional pages discussing some of these considerations - like impact to undead CR/effectiveness, etc.
Armor as DR - I probably won't be using this. As much as I like the concept, the implementation is just kind of "hey try this out". Also, the lack of a Defense progression seems like a tremendous oversight and I'm not sure that this variant rule can really be combined with Called Shots as written without significantly impacting the game.
So basically, the two options that received significant attention I'm using. The two that didn't get enough pages (in the definitive combat book -- ARGH!), I'm not certain of yet.
I'll never be using called shots, just like I don't use any kind of fumble table, etc.
In order to maintain any realism in the setting, such things also have to be available to non-characters as well.
As such, all it would take is a horde of goblins using called shots to bring down any party; sooner or later all those called shots are going to kick in.
All of the critical feats are about as close as I'm willing to come to called shots.
I'll never be using called shots, just like I don't use any kind of fumble table, etc.
In order to maintain any realism in the setting, such things also have to be available to non-characters as well.
As such, all it would take is a horde of goblins using called shots to bring down any party; sooner or later all those called shots are going to kick in.
All of the critical feats are about as close as I'm willing to come to called shots.
The feats and the called shots mechanic are there for heroes. The PC's are meant to be something well off from the established norms for their race. They are able to do things that many NPC's cannot. Therefore, the called shot mechanic for example does not have to be available to every NPC in the world. The feats etc represent training and experience well beyond the normal, and lets face it, its not every NPC farmer that goes out and slays dragons for a living, takes the hoard of treasure and sleeps with the mayor's daughter.
Also, surely the whole point of this game is that it is a FANTASY game setting? Why bother with the realism all the time?
The feats and the called shots mechanic are there for heroes. The PC's are meant to be something well off from the established norms for their race. They are able to do things that many NPC's cannot. Therefore, the called shot mechanic for example does not have to be available to every NPC in the world. The feats etc represent training and experience well beyond the normal, and lets face it, its not every NPC farmer that goes out and slays dragons for a living, takes the hoard of treasure and sleeps with the mayor's daughter.
Also, surely the whole point of this game is that it is a FANTASY game setting? Why bother with the realism all the time?
So critical hits, attacks of opportunity, can't be used by NPCs?
You can certainly run your game where PCs are the only ones who can take advantage of called shots, but that seems an odd exception to make.
Yes, PCs will possibly face more called shots. They also face more monsters, attacks, level drains, etc. They also have greater abilities than most NPCs & monsters and easier access (as they rise in level) to curative magic -- even death isn't a permanent problem.
They're HEROES. They're supposed to be overcoming the odds & facing death. That's why there heroes.
I am considering creating an adventure that starts the players out in the arena so I plan on utilizing the performace stuff. Since this was written after the core I am looking through it to perhaps add some performance flare to previous feats or see how things will match up.
I was thinking of opening up the called shot rules to anyone that takes weapon finesse, to offset the fact that in general a dex melee fighter does not seem to have the damage output of a str one. I will probably play test this concept in a few one-shots first though.
I did just that! ala Spartacus, my players began as criminals in the arena. Things were going bad for them performance wise, until one of them made a called shot the "Vitals" area of the gladiator, and basically after kicking him in the jimmies, the fight turned around, and the enemy gladiator begged for mercy.
All we use is called shots, which has basically degenerated into the two dwarves, one a fighter the other a barbarian stabbing people in the crotch.
All we use is called shots, which has basically degenerated into the two dwarves, one a fighter the other a barbarian stabbing people in the crotch.
Heh, heh... this reminds me of an old game of Champions- one of my friends seemed to end up rolling 'groin' on random hit location about 90% of the time- with razor sharp electrified throwing knives. Ah, good times...
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The feats and the called shots mechanic are there for heroes. The PC's are meant to be something well off from the established norms for their race. They are able to do things that many NPC's cannot. Therefore, the called shot mechanic for example does not have to be available to every NPC in the world. The feats etc represent training and experience well beyond the normal, and lets face it, its not every NPC farmer that goes out and slays dragons for a living, takes the hoard of treasure and sleeps with the mayor's daughter.
Also, surely the whole point of this game is that it is a FANTASY game setting? Why bother with the realism all the time?
So critical hits, attacks of opportunity, can't be used by NPCs?
You can certainly run your game where PCs are the only ones who can take advantage of called shots, but that seems an odd exception to make.
Yes, PCs will possibly face more called shots. They also face more monsters, attacks, level drains, etc. They also have greater abilities than most NPCs & monsters and easier access (as they rise in level) to curative magic -- even death isn't a permanent problem.
They're HEROES. They're supposed to be overcoming the odds & facing death. That's why there heroes.
A bit of an exageration. The post is saying that PC's are Heroes above and beyond the norm. Critical Feats, called shots etc. are not for your average joe.
Does this mean all NPC and bad guys must be complete numpties? Of course not, but I would not expect a band of heroes coming across a hoard of goblins all expertly called shotting their asses.|
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We also use Legends as Items variant rules which is quite fun. In the game I'm currently running people are loving it. Basically instead of giving out masses of loot I give out +X gold worth of enhancement bonus. My gunslinger player loves it as his gun he has been using since playtest is his Lucky Reliable gun Lady Thunder. Makes items part of the character, makes loot levels more believable and gives players more control over what they want.
I would actually like to know more about this "Legends as Items" variant. I think it would actually make my game a little more streamlined, and prevent a lot of the "walk into a magic shop and purchase the exact same item, only slightly better" stuff. I was never really a big fan of that happening. It just doesn't preserve the game's continuity.
We also use Legends as Items variant rules which is quite fun. In the game I'm currently running people are loving it. Basically instead of giving out masses of loot I give out +X gold worth of enhancement bonus. My gunslinger player loves it as his gun he has been using since playtest is his Lucky Reliable gun Lady Thunder. Makes items part of the character, makes loot levels more believable and gives players more control over what they want.I would actually like to know more about this "Legends as Items" variant. I think it would actually make my game a little more streamlined, and prevent a lot of the "walk into a magic shop and purchase the exact same item, only slightly better" stuff. I was never really a big fan of that happening. It just doesn't preserve the game's continuity.
My understanding is that you would replace some of the treasure with an equivalent GP value in "Legend Points" or something similar. Then you would just spend those points like you would pay gold for having items enchanted. Basically, your items would grow with the character, without ever having to visit a wizard to enchant them.
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I did just that! ala Spartacus, my players began as criminals in the arena. Things were going bad for them performance wise, until one of them made a called shot the "Vitals" area of the gladiator, and basically after kicking him in the jimmies, the fight turned around, and the enemy gladiator begged for mercy.
I am considering creating an adventure that starts the players out in the arena so I plan on utilizing the performace stuff. Since this was written after the core I am looking through it to perhaps add some performance flare to previous feats or see how things will match up.
I was thinking of opening up the called shot rules to anyone that takes weapon finesse, to offset the fact that in general a dex melee fighter does not seem to have the damage output of a str one. I will probably play test this concept in a few one-shots first though.
Cool, I was looking at spartacus for inspiration also I enjoyed both of the series. Have you adjusted any previous feats for your campaign? I was looking at things like dazzling display for example, that would seem to have a combat performance flare, but were written prior to UC.
Also did you set your campaign in Golarion? I was considering it, having the arena in the mana wastes so that magic was not a factor initially. This would put some off to playing a caster to start, I was thinking I could off set this with a campaign trait of "Arena Training" or some such that would give a bonus to fighting in an arena setting only.
Do you use the called shot system as is or did you implement something else?
A bit of an exageration. The post is saying that PC's are Heroes above and beyond the norm. Critical Feats, called shots etc. are not for your average joe.
Does this mean all NPC and bad guys must be complete numpties? Of course not, but I would not expect a band of heroes coming across a hoard of goblins all expertly called shotting their asses.
It's less of an exaggeration than goblins "all expertly called-shotting".
My point was it's a tactic that's available to any character, not just the PCs. If goblins want to try it, and greatly reduce their chances of success, they can. If they try it and a lucky shot pays off, that's just part of the game -- risk-vs-reward.
I'm currently testing WP/VP in a lead up adventure to my next campaign. After seeing it in action during a couple of sessions, I'm still on the fence. It seems to drag out the combat, which already eats up quite a bit of time. I like the idea behind it, and I think it's the best version of the "John McClane" model of taking damage, but I'm still not convinced. The "healer" in the group is a little frustrated by it as well. I'll keep testing it through the end of this adventure, but we'll see.
Once the actual campaign kicks off I'll be using a restricted form of Called Shots. I'm allowing it, but a Hero Point needs to be spent to make a called shot. I'm hoping this limits a wild abuse of the mechanic, and it seems "flavorful" to make that heroic shot to the Ogre's eye using a Hero Point.
As for the rest... I will not likely be using them. Armor as DR sounds nice, but doesn't strike me a fully fleshed out. Performance combat is too situational. There's fighting pits in the Northlands of my campaign, so they might get broken out up there... maybe. Piecemeal armor looks broken. Again, a nice idea, but it allows some unbalanced (IMO) armor combos.
The variant rules are interesting, and I'll introduce Called Shots and Piecemail Armor in my games. But I believe Armor as DR and Wounds and Vigor are not as practical as they should, especially Armor as DR. Wounds and Vigor just make no sense.
Called Shots are nice and very practical, but I think the feats (especially Improved) makes them overpowered and would be widely used. However, it would make the combat even slower.
Piecemail Armor are nice too, but need a previous preparation. In the game session, again, would make even slower. But are really nice and realist.
Armor as DR are simply useless. Decreases too much AC and the DR guaranteed not balance the match. In my opinion, only makes the combat faster because of the deadliest blows. Also, can't use with Called Shots, or would be even more deadly. For those who think that the combat taking too long, it might be practical, although one should take into account the high Dex (and AC) creatures.
Wounds and Vigor are so stupid that even deserves to be taken into consideration! Just make no sense!
If I use Armor as DR, I plan to add Ref save into Defense. After all, isn't Reflex all about avoiding damage?
If I use Armor as DR, I plan to add Ref save into Defense. After all, isn't Reflex all about avoiding damage?
This means double DEX to AC. DEX is an already overstacked stat, you really don't want to do that, trust me.
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If I use Armor as DR, I plan to add Ref save into Defense. After all, isn't Reflex all about avoiding damage?This means double DEX to AC. DEX is an already overstacked stat, you really don't want to do that, trust me.
I think he just means the base save, which I also don't like, especially since it might have the odd side-effect of including other bonuses to AC, like the paladin's charisma, and cloaks of protection, which is where it gets really crazy.
The paladin doesn't need to be adding all that stuff to his AC.
If I use Armor as DR, I plan to add Ref save into Defense. After all, isn't Reflex all about avoiding damage?This means double DEX to AC. DEX is an already overstacked stat, you really don't want to do that, trust me.I think he just means the base save, which I also don't like, especially since it might have the odd side-effect of including other bonuses to AC, like the paladin's charisma, and cloaks of protection, which is where it gets really crazy.
The paladin doesn't need to be adding all that stuff to his AC.
Pardon my little rant here, BUT:
Why in the world would anybody think I was talking about double Dex to AC? There would still be a max dex bonus on the armor. It would take 15 levels to get the AC bonus lost from most armors. The Def bonus schemes out there are usually half again higher than Ref base saves. I have used Ref save to Def for awhile now & have had NO problems. Why put another stat out there that "adds a special reflexive defense bonus learned as you gain levels" when it ALREADY exist?
It would take 15 levels to get the AC bonus lost from most armors.Er, no, not even remotely close. It takes 15 levels to get the AC bonus lost from the best armor in the game. Most armor are 6 or less. Most armors that most high-reflex characters can wear is 4 or less. By level 15 you've actually increased your AC by choosing the option where you don't get armor bonuses to AC. That's just dumb.
And many of your classes have poor Ref saves, which are +5 at 15th level. That is way less than the higher AC armors a fighter is giving up. By your own statement, most armors are +6 or less. Your rogues will be better, but they will also not be in the higher DR armors. It makes more sense that they would learn to dodge better. Again, all of the Def bonus charts I have seen used in games that still used armor as AC were MUCH higher than adding in Ref saves instead. Look at d20 Modern as an example. Look at the variant rules for armor as DR from Unearthed Arcana for 3e.
And many of your classes have poor Ref saves, which are +5 at 15th level. That is way less than the higher AC armors a fighter is giving up.It would take 15 levels to get the AC bonus lost from most armors.Er, no, not even remotely close. It takes 15 levels to get the AC bonus lost from the best armor in the game. Most armor are 6 or less. Most armors that most high-reflex characters can wear is 4 or less. By level 15 you've actually increased your AC by choosing the option where you don't get armor bonuses to AC. That's just dumb.Yes, and the immense amounts of DR they're getting from those armors.
Are you really of the opinion that the Armor as DR system shouldn't lower AC at all, just give tons of DR for free? Because that's what your system will result in.
Not MY system. The system proposed in UC. I just suggested a way to mitigate the loss of Defense from armor. I suggested it because many people were saying on this thread that it was too big a loss. Apparently you haven't read the whole thread. You seem to be operating from a false premise on why I suggested what I did.
Oh? Did you not say:
If I use Armor as DR, I plan to add Ref save into Defense. After all, isn't Reflex all about avoiding damage?That's your system.
And I still stand by what I said. I have been using Ref added to AC for awhile now & it works great. That is without the DR rules.
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Why in the world would anybody think I was talking about double Dex to AC? There would still be a max dex bonus on the armor. It would take 15 levels to get the AC bonus lost from most armors. The Def bonus schemes out there are usually half again higher than Ref base saves. I have used Ref save to Def for awhile now & have had NO problems. Why put another stat out there that "adds a special reflexive defense bonus learned as you gain levels" when it ALREADY exist?
I didn't say you were adding dex twice, in fact I was saying that you weren't adding dex twice. What I was saying is that -OTHER- bonuses would probably add to it.
Which would make some of the classes like the paladin utterly ridiculous, the paladin is already a force of nature, if they build for a high charisma, then you are talking a guy adding his Charisma to his AC, saves, and smite, which improves his AC again.
Then there's the ranger, not really the type of class to go trundling across the battlefield, but he isn't supposed to be better at avoiding hits than a barbarian is... you know, when the barbarian is thinking straight.
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No; Piecemeal armor, called shots, and armor as DR are all too messed up to use.I wouldn't say that. These are variant rules. They are mainly for campaign flavor. I can see certain campaigns running with any of these rules, but the feel of others may make any of the variants seem broken.
The problem with piecemeal armor isn't the flavor. It's that it's mechanically broken.
Armors you can create with the system:
LIGHT:
Protective and Mobile:
AC +4, Max Dex +4, Armor Check -0, ASF 15%, Movement 30, 21 gp
(Lamellar curiass torso for 15, studded leather legs for 5, padded arms for 1)
MEDIUM:
Full Movement:
AC +7, Max Dex +4, Armor Check -2, ASF 35%, Movement 30, 128 gp
(Chain torso for 100, hide legs for 3, horn lamellar arms for 25)
Max Protection:
AC +8, Max Dex +4, Armor Check -5, ASF 35%, Movement 20, 48 gp
(Four-mirror armor torso for 20, hide legs for 3, horn lamellar arms for 25)
Druid Legal:
AC +5, Max Dex +4, Armor Check -2, ASF 30%, Movement 30, 38 gp
(Hide armor torso for 10, hide legs for 3, horn lamellar arms for 25)
HEAVY:
Protective:
AC +10, Max Dex +2, Armor Check -4, ASF 40%, Movement 20, 525 gp
(Plate torso for 200, o-yoroi legs for 300, horn lamellar arms for 25)
Protective Lower-ASF:
AC +10, Max Dex +2, Armor Check -4, ASF 30%, Movement 20, 725 gp
(Agile plate torso for 400, o-yoroi legs for 300, horn lamellar arms for 25)
Full Plate Equivalent Cheap:
AC +9, Max Dex +3, Armor Check -4, ASF 40%, Movement 20, 228 gp
(Plate torso for 200, hide legs for 3, horn lamellar arms for 25)
Okay people. A little common sense. It would ONLY be Base Reflex save added in. Me, as a GM would not let any of the abilities that were intended for JUST saves to be added into a Defense Bonus. The Paladin would not get Cha to Defense. Just because a spell or ability applies, as of now, to saves, I would not let it apply to Defense. That is NOT what it was intended for. My reasoning behind Ref to Defense is people were calling for a defensive bonus that goes up with level. They exist in other d20 rules. It is I see no reason to add another set of stats to keep up with when such a bonus is already in the main system.
Personally, I am NOT trying to get anybody else to use this. I just said that I would. I already use Ref in normal games. It works just fine & has been balanced. I have had no problems & my players have fun. That is my concern.
Now, as for piecemeal armor, I have no opinion on if it is broke or not. I don't use it & don't plan on using it. Rather, I make a judgement call based on common sense if somebody feel the need for that sort of thing. Again, my game, so I am not trying to convince you to play my houserules. If I were to use it, it WOULD be for flavor. Many times flavor for the sake of flavor leads to rules that don't make sense to me any way. Still, it is what somebody did to enhance the type of atmosphere of play they were trying to get across. Piecemeal rules of some type would be great for a Gamma World style game. Players would be picking up bits & pieces to armor themselves anyway. You could just subtract 1 from all piecemeal bonuses if it bothers you, or make up your own rules.
If I wanted to blow minds here, I would tell you what else I would use bonuses from armor for, besides DR in alt rules. I would apply (most like 1/2 of the base armor bonus) to, get this, the Fort save. If armor is damage reduction, then it kinda makes sense that it would help you absorb damage. Again, this would not apply to things that armor doesn't work against, like poisons. These rules are really ones I have seen in other d20 based rules. True20 & Star Wars Saga Edition come to mind.
@xorial: I still don't think it covers some of the bigger differences, the Ranger and Gunslinger classes suddenly become a lot tougher than they should be, outclassing fighters, barbarians, and cavaliers.
You don't have to use it. Like I said, I merely said what I would do.
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@xorial: I still don't think it covers some of the bigger differences, the Ranger and Gunslinger classes suddenly become a lot tougher than they should be, outclassing fighters, barbarians, and cavaliers.You don't have to use it. Like I said, I merely said what I would do.
And I'm just saying that I think it's a very bad idea.
Xorial, is just a matter of making sense. Light armored fighter like rogue or ranger lose the least ammount of AC (since light armor give less AC than heavy) and gain the largest ammount of bonus from the base reflex since Ref is usually a good save for them. Instead the Warr/Barb in heavy armor lose the most and gain the less.
For number sake, a 10 level rogue whould lose the armor of a chain skirth that is 4 + ench for a +7 Defence. A 10 level warrior would exchange their full plate +9 + ench for a + 3. So in the end the warrior get a lower defence than the rogue. And please note that the system already consider that the rogue will still have more Dex than the warr so even better defence. If you find comfortable with that, then of cours feel free of doing whatever makes your gamig experience better.
Xorial, is just a matter of making sense. Light armored fighter like rogue or ranger lose the least ammount of AC (since light armor give less AC than heavy) and gain the largest ammount of bonus from the base reflex since Ref is usually a good save for them. Instead the Warr/Barb in heavy armor lose the most and gain the less.
For number sake, a 10 level rogue whould lose the armor of a chain skirth that is 4 + ench for a +7 Defence. A 10 level warrior would exchange their full plate +9 + ench for a + 3. So in the end the warrior get a lower defence than the rogue. And please note that the system already consider that the rogue will still have more Dex than the warr so even better defence. If you find comfortable with that, then of cours feel free of doing whatever makes your gamig experience better.
I already am aware of the defence numbers you have thrown out. So what are the DR numbers? That every other system that adds a Defense bonus that goes up in level does the same thing. The lighter combatants end up with better defenses. The deference with what I'd do is that I combine it with DR. Now the warrior gets something from the loss of defense. He gets a pretty good DR.
I already am aware of the defence numbers you have thrown out. So what are the DR numbers? That every other system that adds a Defense bonus that goes up in level does the same thing. The lighter combatants end up with better defenses. The deference with what I'd do is that I combine it with DR. Now the warrior gets something from the loss of defense. He gets a pretty good DR.
I ask for pardon since i've not explained it in the right way. The point i'm making is
Rogue : sacrifice light armor for DR = exchange 4 AC for 4 DR (plus bonus)Warrior: sacrifice full plate for DR = exchange 9 AC for 9 DR (plus bonus)
the exchange is already balanced, since the war now have less armor but more DR. So the rogue gets hit less, but suffer more when hitted. That is point of the sistem.
Now, that given, we add your houserule. The rogue gains 7 defence, the warrior only 3. Now your warrior is completely right to ask you "why the hell you gifted the rogue with 7 Def and i got only 3?"
I already am aware of the defence numbers you have thrown out. So what are the DR numbers? That every other system that adds a Defense bonus that goes up in level does the same thing. The lighter combatants end up with better defenses. The deference with what I'd do is that I combine it with DR. Now the warrior gets something from the loss of defense. He gets a pretty good DR.I ask for pardon since i've not explained it in the right way. The point i'm making is
Rogue : sacrifice light armor for DR = exchange 4 AC for 4 DR (plus bonus)
Warrior: sacrifice full plate for DR = exchange 9 AC for 9 DR (plus bonus)
the exchange is already balanced, since the war now have less armor but more DR. So the rogue gets hit less, but suffer more when hitted. That is point of the sistem.
Now, that given, we add your houserule. The rogue gains 7 defence, the warrior only 3. Now your warrior is completely right to ask you "why the hell you gifted the rogue with 7 Def and i got only 3?"
It isn't an argument, because basically that is what I am going for. I have my reasons.
No on all four counts:
Armour as DR: Can't be bothered actually. I haven't looked at it too much, but it didn't sound too bad. The DR type thing is kinda weird, though - and it means that once you have a +4 weapon, you can pretty much ignore most of the DR.
Called Shots: I don't think it really works with HP. If we had an actual damage system, then maybe.
Piecemeal Armour: As has already been amply demonstrated, this is more broken then a fragile weapon you rolled twenty natural 1s in a row with.
Wounds and Vigour: The fact that some effects can directly target vigour (i.e. negative damage) seems to be problematic. Channel negative energy has just become way scary.