Indeed.
Most of the times, nudity or "exposure" in combat was made with the intent of leaving some kind of impression or statement, either targeted at the enemy or at your own troops. From the naked Celts to the amazon-clad Eleanor of Aquitaine*, it has been observed in history throughout most continents and most epochs. I doubt that nakedness was done for no reasons.
*I'm aware that this is a historically disputed fact, but the fact that people talked about an amazon-clad (ie. bare chested) female rider notes the impression it left in the crusader's mind.
Yeah I pointed that out.
GoldenOpal, who has led countless charges in real combat into enemy lines and is far more experienced at hand to hand combat for survival than any of those peoples has already put the kabosh on such frivolity.
Ok Truce on Butt-Naked.
Despite the fact that he went into umpteen lethal encounters and lived.
Whilst Butt-Naked.
Well if this thread's not already too derailed by 'debate', here's a few image of warrior women in non-sexualized armor:
The Girl Knight by Wen-M
Knight Girl by Wen-M
Samurai Girl by Wen-MAveline from DragonAge 2
BTW, one point I don't think I've seen raised is that characters aren't always walking around fully clad for a dungeon crawl or open warfare. At chiefly diplomatic events, it might make a great deal more sense to wear ceremonial armor or otherwise less Battle Practical™ attire so as to gain other advantages. In such situations it might even be against decorum to wear your full kit — particularly if it's all dinged and such from seeing actual usage in the field.
Not every depiction of a character (even one wearing armor) needs to assume they are currently in or expecting a fight. I don't know about you guys, but my characters and NPCs don't exactly walk around in the same gear 24×7. IMO it's a bit unfortunate that the iconic characters never seem to get a change of clothes. I'd personally love to see more variety in even a single character's attire.
those are some nice pictures that look awesome.
I will never argue for "more skin" in PF art. I worked at a 1-hour photo lab for years, and believe me when I say HOORAY FOR CLOTHES!
I just wanted to pop into the thread to indicate that I recently learned a fascinating sociological reason for the nudity-in-battle trope that kept popping up around the world: it prevents infection of the wound. Bits of cloth wedged in a wound could turn it from minor to lethal. Not as much of a problem in PF, where there isn't even a mechanic for infection... just a historical side note.
lol on the photo lab experience, and thanks for the interesting historical note.
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Glad you liked them doctor_wu. Here's a few more that I found in a Deviant Art group entitled "Battle-Ready-Womyn". Some are animé style, some concept art, some character studies. There's more BreastPlate™ in these designs, but I don't think any of the poses or dispositions could be considered demeaning or even funny-looking.
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- Have ax will travel rogue & warrior
- RPG fantasy character design Viking shield maiden
- Titania epic hair
- Female Melee Armor concept art
- Holy Avenger paladin
- Half-Elven Paladin Everquest character
- Girl Power BAD-ASS! Valkyrie/paladin
- Kedlai Everwinter Guild Wars character
- Armor Female Concept concept art
- Auredia - character study Roman lorica segmenta perhaps?
- Astrid character study
- Female Knight chainmail
- Nanna Finished ceremonial armor?
- The Northlander Viking ranger?
- Defender fantasy armor
- Commission: Torea Sterling ceremonial armor?
- Guardian of Kyrenoc fantasy armor
- Bellona - Goddes of War Greco-Roman musculata armor
Laithoron, those are absolutely gorgeous, thanks so much for posting them.
Good pictures
Hmm a few of these still crop top the plate... one makes up for it with chain underneath...
Dont get me wrong... I prefer my fantasy art to have context that is if there is a good story as to why the person is dressed in a particular way then I will go with it....
Gratuitous and overdone boob pictures or warriors that look like they spent 5 years at the gym on roids arent my cup of tea - but I am also happy to let people celebrate the sexual nature of fantasy art without getting my hackles up.
Good pictures
Hmm a few of these still crop top the plate... one makes up for it with chain underneath...
Glad that you, Laurefindel, and DQ like the pics.
As far as cropped plate...
Try leaning forward and side to side to check your flexibility. For me, at about a hands-width below my sternum, I become become able to actually bend. If you want to retain good mobility for tumbling, etc. then you need to limit the use of inflexible plates to those areas of the body that do not flex: thighs, shins, upper and lower arms, skull, and upper torso.
In areas where flexibility is required, you either have to leave it unprotected, or gird it with something that allows for bending/twisting such as leather, chain, kevlar, articulated plates, etc. — elbows, knees, hips, abdomen, wrists, etc. Needless to say, some types of protection are much more affordable and prone to locking up when damaged than others.
These considerations apply regardless of gender.
Whilst Butt-Naked.
What is it with you and naked muscle men?
Whilst Butt-Naked.What is it with you and naked muscle men?
Simple.
The argument that the 'nay-sayers of cheeze' put forward is pretty much built around the concept of sexualing and objectifying/exploiting women.
They can't hack it when it is pointed out that:
* Fighting cultures in the past have often fought naked.
* Women in the past have fought naked or in a state of undress.
* MEN have fought naked too.
General Butt-Naked was brought up because the deniers tried to state that the nakedness would have ONLY happened in some ignorant dark ages a bajillion years ago when no one knew better and there was no acceptable reason (to the nay sayers) for said state of undress - completely discounting religious and cultural significance; he thus became a perfect tool to upset them with.
It is quite funny to note the reactions to the mention of naked men, and just how uncomfortable some posters become all of a sudden. You mention scantily clad chicks and they all go and 'examine the picture for its relative merits' so it can be mass debated, yet mention a semi-naked guy...
I think the nay-sayer chicks on this forum arew only nay saying on the basis of what they might look like in a chainmail bikini.
Glad that you, Laurefindel, and DQ like the pics.
...I hadn't said so yet but indeed, I very much enjoyed those pictures; particularly the viking shield maiden, Auredia and Bellona (although that last one is still somewhat sexualised).
[edit] ah yes, I 'faved' your post...
When I see DeathQuaker's name abbreviated as DQ, I can't stop myself from reading "Dairy Queen"...
Dotting. Putting aside the arguments and claims of "exploitation" and what have you I've seen so far (I honestly think some of you are making a mountain out of a molehill), I am enjoying the images -- keep 'em coming. I am actually playing a female Fighter in a Kingmaker campaign right now, whose typical combat attire is a wool shirt, trousers, riding boots and a calf-length armoured coat which is starting to show some wear. I want her to eventually commission a wicked-looking suit of full plate, so when that happens, some of these images will be a useful resource.
As for the sculpted breastplate, there really are plenty of those for men as well, and they are definitely aesthetic in those cases.
As for the sculpted breastplate, there really are plenty of those for men as well, and they are definitely aesthetic in those cases.
Right allong with the 8 inch metal codpieces sticking straight out.
I don't think having junk that big is an advantage to warriors as it is eaiser to kick them there then. Have Axe will travel looks nice as well. I like the pictures of females where it looks like they are ready to swing their weapons or actually fight.
I don't think having junk that big is an advantage to warriors as it is eaiser to kick them there then. Have Axe will travel looks nice as well. I like the pictures of females where it looks like they are ready to swing their weapons or actually fight.
I was refering to actual armor, not fantasy. I would find some pictures, but I don't want that on my search history at work.
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As for the sculpted breastplate, there really are plenty of those for men as well, and they are definitely aesthetic in those cases.Right allong with the 8 inch metal codpieces sticking straight out.
The larger the Cod piece the better in Renaissance time. It was a way to be a peacock and flaunt what they might or might not have really had. Some of the paintings og Kin Henry the VIII show a rather massive cod piece.
Cod pieces where not just in daily clothing but in the armor of that time. But of couse by the 16th century and 17th century the armor was all but obsolete on the battlefield and was mainly used in tournaments and for the rich. But then again Good King Henry did wear his into battle in the early part of the 16th Century and up to the point of his death.
So yeah... Large cod pieses. that would be like a female stuffing her bray with faux breats and to do all the lift and push to try and catch attention... which BTW only a wh0&3 would do. Most women where modest and the corsets of the time flattened and made you a cylinder shape and flattened the sisters Modesty was a virtue for woman and to show to much you where considered a loose woman or worse... a seductress that could be burned as a witch.
But for males it was OK to try and show off what you did not have or did have.
IceniQueen, my memories from English Renaissance studies are foggy with old age, but I'm certain I learned it was actually relatively common during the Tudor and Jacobean areas for English women to walk around bare-breasted--for ease of breast feeding (and the local aesthetic was cool with it).
Perhaps the "flattening" was common among the upper classes? But I don't think the opposite was reserved for prostitutes (although perhaps "bodice-stuffing" was, and if that's all you were getting at, okay then!).
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Traditionally it was the "middle" classes that were the most puritanical (so much so a lot of them got booted out of the country) - The upper-classes were debauched drunk and into all kinds of fun and games - and depending on what the time period the lower classes were preoccupied with survival or celebrating (getting drunk and debauched) that they were still alive after x war or y plague.
Clothing was revealing and attitudes to sex were vastly different.
We have the middle classes to thank for our hang ups about the body.
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Clothing was revealing and attitudes to sex were vastly different.
Not the rich and Noble class. Trust me. I have 4 Historically accurate as we can do in modern times Renaissance dresses. 1 is exactly like a dress Katherine of Aragon Henry VIII 1st wife. The 2nd is a dress styled exactly like a dress Katherine Parr Henry VIII 6th and last wife. One is an Elizabethan that has more layers on it and would have been worn by anyone of rank in Elizabeth's court, the 4th is similar but not as many layers.
I have authentic Tudor corsets and an Elizabethan Corset. The corsets are NOT like Victorian or modern and flatten you out. You have to REALLY "FLUFF" the sisters to get cleavage and in those times as a noble this was not something you did on a regular bases.
While yes there was a lot of debauchery, it was frowned upon by women to do that in a court. Anne Boleyn was considered the Great Whore and a Seductress and a witch because of her "loose ways" with Henry VIII. A male to do this was a libertine and it was OK to have and to flaunt as long as you had more power than the church.
During Charles I and II reign is when you start seeing more of the show more and breast pushed up, but not in Tudor or Plantagenet England.
When Cromwell took over England it was even more frowned upon to be debauched, men, women or anyone.
Clothing was revealing and attitudes to sex were vastly different.
Not the rich and Noble class. Trust me. I have 4 Historically accurate as we can do in modern times Renaissance dresses. 1 is exactly like a dress Katherine of Aragon Henry VIII 1st wife. The 2nd is a dress styled exactly like a dress Katherine Parr Henry VIII 6th and last wife. One is an Elizabethan that has more layers on it and would have been worn by anyone of rank in Elizabeth's court, the 4th is similar but not as many layers.
I have authentic Tudor corsets and an Elizabethan Corset. The corsets are NOT like Victorian or modern and flatten you out. You have to REALLY "FLUFF" the sisters to get cleavage and in those times as a noble this was not something you did on a regular bases.
While yes there was a lot of debauchery, it was frowned upon by women to do that in a court. Anne Boleyn was considered the Great Whore and a Seductress and a witch because of her "loose ways" with Henry VIII. A male to do this was a libertine and it was OK to have and to flaunt as long as you had more power than the church.
During Charles I and II reign is when you start seeing more of the show more and breast pushed up, but not in Tudor or Plantagenet England.
When Cromwell took over England it was even more frowned upon to be debauched, men, women or anyone.
The courtly classes we such a small percentage of the population and while English Elizabethan nobility may have been somewhat more modest in dress, there were differences in other European courts.
It was also the time of the rise of the Merchant classes in England vast sums of money were coming in. The new rich were more than happy to display their wealth.
Cromwell and his nutters were a reaction to decades of excess.
Poor Anne Boleyn - I think part of her problem was she wasn't as subtle as the other ladies of the court and while a little bit of boldness was appealing, her lack of discretion and ability to alienate people were contributing factors to her demise.
This show is primarily about the food of the Period The Supersizers Go... Elizabethan (Part 1) I think you may enjoy it.
This show is primarily about the food of the Period The Supersizers Go... Elizabethan (Part 1) I think you may enjoy it.
that show is awesome thanks for the link
I think the nay-sayer chicks on this forum arew only nay saying on the basis of what they might look like in a chainmail bikini.
Let me guess: You're single, right?
I think the nay-sayer chicks on this forum arew only nay saying on the basis of what they might look like in a chainmail bikini.Let me guess: You're single, right?
I think Shifty likes to stir people a touch :-)
This show is primarily about the food of the Period The Supersizers Go... Elizabethan (Part 1) I think you may enjoy it.that show is awesome thanks for the link
Its a great show the Supersizers Go the 80's is my favourite.
I think Shifty likes to stir people a touch :-)
Guilty as charged.
Those getting offended probably NEED a good offending.
*monocle*
I say, good sir, that is quite offensive!
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Clothing was revealing and attitudes to sex were vastly different.
Not the rich and Noble class. Trust me. I have 4 Historically accurate as we can do in modern times Renaissance dresses. 1 is exactly like a dress Katherine of Aragon Henry VIII 1st wife. The 2nd is a dress styled exactly like a dress Katherine Parr Henry VIII 6th and last wife. One is an Elizabethan that has more layers on it and would have been worn by anyone of rank in Elizabeth's court, the 4th is similar but not as many layers.
I have authentic Tudor corsets and an Elizabethan Corset. The corsets are NOT like Victorian or modern and flatten you out. You have to REALLY "FLUFF" the sisters to get cleavage and in those times as a noble this was not something you did on a regular bases.
While yes there was a lot of debauchery, it was frowned upon by women to do that in a court. Anne Boleyn was considered the Great Whore and a Seductress and a witch because of her "loose ways" with Henry VIII. A male to do this was a libertine and it was OK to have and to flaunt as long as you had more power than the church.
During Charles I and II reign is when you start seeing more of the show more and breast pushed up, but not in Tudor or Plantagenet England.
When Cromwell took over England it was even more frowned upon to be debauched, men, women or anyone.
The courtly classes we such a small percentage of the population and while English Elizabethan nobility may have been somewhat more modest in dress, there were differences in other European courts.
It was also the time of the rise of the Merchant classes in England vast sums of money were coming in. The new rich were more than happy to display their wealth.
Cromwell and his nutters were a reaction to decades of excess.
Poor Anne Boleyn - I think part of her problem was she wasn't as subtle as the other ladies of the court and while a little bit of boldness was appealing, her lack of discretion and ability to...
Thank you for the link. Awesome show.
And yes Anne would in todays world be a corporate CEO or head of the Government. As mush as some hate the woman, i actually admire her and read many books on her. Not to mention about King Henry and his other 5 wives as well.
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Thread Necromancy - with a Halloween twist:
Non-sexy female costumes. They include a number of real world female rulers.
I think I like "And then there’s Tomyris, warrior queen who defeated Cyrus the Great, and, legend has it, used his skull as a cup. Naturally, the costume incorporates this detail."
I see what the problem is! Don't worry, I'll this sorted out in no time.
IceniQueen, my memories from English Renaissance studies are foggy with old age,
...
You realize, that could be taken that you were alive during the English Renaissanse. :)
IceniQueen, my memories from English Renaissance studies are foggy with old age,...
You realize, that could be taken that you were alive during the English Renaissanse. :)
The inclusion of the word "studies" should suggest that I am only old enough to have studied that era.
But if you choose to interpret that I am actually over 400 years old, by all means, feel free. People always assume I'm younger than I am and that gets tiresome.
IceniQueen, my memories from English Renaissance studies are foggy with old age,...
You realize, that could be taken that you were alive during the English Renaissanse. :)
The inclusion of the word "studies" should suggest that I am only old enough to have studied that era.
But if you choose to interpret that I am actually over 400 years old, by all means, feel free. People always assume I'm younger than I am and that gets tiresome.
doesn't this mean you should be undeath Quaker?
doesn't this mean you should be undeath Quaker?IceniQueen, my memories from English Renaissance studies are foggy with old age,...
You realize, that could be taken that you were alive during the English Renaissanse. :)
The inclusion of the word "studies" should suggest that I am only old enough to have studied that era.
But if you choose to interpret that I am actually over 400 years old, by all means, feel free. People always assume I'm younger than I am and that gets tiresome.
What makes you assume my longevity is from necromancy?
What makes you assume my longevity is from necromancy?doesn't this mean you should be undeath Quaker?IceniQueen, my memories from English Renaissance studies are foggy with old age,...
You realize, that could be taken that you were alive during the English Renaissanse. :)
The inclusion of the word "studies" should suggest that I am only old enough to have studied that era.
But if you choose to interpret that I am actually over 400 years old, by all means, feel free. People always assume I'm younger than I am and that gets tiresome.
That's true, you could be half elven or something. Death half-Quaker?
DeathQuaker is a Time Lord.
time lady death Quaker just sounds weird. Time Mistress Death Quaker sounds awesome!
I actually asked a guy to draw my character in realistic armor instead of some silly and shameless boobplate (despite that character having assets leaning more towards big). I've started to prefer armor that actually looks like it would protect the character instead of just helping them show off what they've got (I also am no longer amused by plate armor that is clearly too ornamental and heavy, with ridiculous amounts of spikes and huge shoulderguards).
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Maybe DeathQuaker is like Orlando you know the movie.
I on the other hand lost my head when my King and husband decided I was a witch and had seduced him because he wanted a younger woman that he felt could give him a male heir instead of the heir I gave him that was one of England's greatest monarchs. Funny how her child while male dies at 17 and was so gullible others really controlled him.
My neck still hurts from the swing of the Frenchman's sword connecting to my lovely neck :P
DeathQuaker is a Time Lord.
putting her on doctor who is the only way to get me to watch regularly!
Maybe DeathQuaker is like Orlando you know the movie.
I on the other hand lost my head when my King and husband decided I was a witch and had seduced him because he wanted a younger woman that he felt could give him a male heir instead of the heir I gave him that was one of England's greatest monarchs. Funny how her child while male dies at 17 and was so gullible others really controlled him.
My neck still hurts from the swing of the Frenchman's sword connecting to my lovely neck :P
I will give a big ol' +1 to the Orlando reference
*High Five*
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Maker help me for posting here...
As I woman, it seems to me that both the pose and the outfit play into whether I "buy it" as reasonable or not. A lot of the classic "impractical" art that was used for fantasy fiction and RPGs works for the guys in the pictures because the characters through posture & expression sell the idea they are a martial badass. A lot of the same art/artists portray the women as passive, helpless, and/or needing rescue... which is counter-productive to getting me to invest interest in reading/roleplaying. Putting the passive women in impractical and/or barely-there garb just makes it worse.
When I read fantasy fiction and play RPGs, I'm looking for a pleasant diversion from the pain-in-the-ass crap in real life. I want to be an active badass, crushing skulls under a morningstar or nuking undead with a kickass spell. Passive, cheesecake art detracts from this immersion.
Maker help me for posting here...
As I woman, it seems to me that both the pose and the outfit play into whether I "buy it" as reasonable or not. A lot of the classic "impractical" art that was used for fantasy fiction and RPGs works for the guys in the pictures because the characters through posture & expression sell the idea they are a martial badass. A lot of the same art/artists portray the women as passive, helpless, and/or needing rescue... which is counter-productive to getting me to invest interest in reading/roleplaying. Putting the passive women in impractical and/or barely-there garb just makes it worse.
When I read fantasy fiction and play RPGs, I'm looking for a pleasant diversion from the pain-in-the-ass crap in real life. I want to be an active badass, crushing skulls under a morningstar or nuking undead with a kickass spell. Passive, cheesecake art detracts from this immersion.
i thought you already posted here a few pages back?
Maker help me for posting here...i thought you already posted here a few pages back?
Not this one, but I posted in the last two or three threads like this. All the "cheesecake/practical armor" threads all kinda blur together for me too. :)
All the "cheesecake/practical armor" threads all kinda blur together for me too. :)
Heh, it would be kind of amusing if Paizo someday adds a "similar threads" feature to the forum and we get to see all the old threads listed right there alongside the latest one. ;)
Oh and some more artwork...
- Comm: Erinwe color rogue/archer
- Comm: Rill'e Color elven paladin
- Commission: Geneva Cruz armored bodice
- Guardian Knight fantasy plate
- Girl and cat cool cartoony knight
Not this one, but I posted in the last two or three threads like this. All the "cheesecake/practical armor" threads all kinda blur together for me too. :)Maker help me for posting here...i thought you already posted here a few pages back?
The cheesecake, the cheesecake...
Cause Artesia actually takes a some what mature approach to sex. It says people have sex, not just for procreation, but for pleasure, for religious practice, for political practice, and as a weapon or a means of control.
That sex has ramifications, both emotional, physical and sometimes political.
It also does not shy away from the beauty of the human form, or sex.
In other words, artesia = awesome grown up fantasy.
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I likes me some Artesia. I'd be interested in getting other opinions on it.