This is a port from another thread, but I think this needs to be adressed.
To sum it up:
Finishers: The finisher trait does not specify melee, however...
You strike with flair. When you have panache and you Strike with an agile or finesse melee weapon or agile or finesse unarmed attack, you deal 2 additional precision damage. If the strike is part of a finisher, the additional damage is 2d6 precision damage instead.
As your swashbuckler level increases, so does your additional damage for precise strike. Increase the amount of additional damage on a Strike and the number of additional dice on a finisher by one at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels.
The Flying Blade feat has to main components:
First one:
You've learned to apply your flashy techniques to thrown weapons as easily as melee attacks. When you have panache, you apply your precise strike damage on ranged Strikes you make with a thrown weapon within that weapon's first range increment. The thrown weapon must be an agile or finesse weapon.
Second one:
This also allows you to make a thrown weapon ranged Strike for Confident Finisher and any other finisher that includes a Strike that can benefit from your precise strike.
This would seem to indicate that you can use any finisher with any ranged strike qualifying as thrown and [finesse and/or agile].
Where there is clarification needed is when there are finishers with precise melee language, such as Stunning Finisher that specifically call out for melee.
Thankfully there are only a handful of these:
Dual Finisher
Stunning Finisher
Unbalancing Finisher
There are two interpretations that seem to be rivaled:
1: Flying blade's last section means that you can use any finisher with a finesse or agile thrown weapon, because the first section makes all ranged strikes with aforementioned weapons eligible with precise strike.
2: Finishers with specific melee reference are not eligible with flying blade.
Discuss.
To be fully cards on the table and expose my biases:
I am of the firm belief that flying blade qualifies any finisher as ranged, except for impaling finisher that specifies that the first target must be adjacent to you.
This is what I logically infer from the language of these various feats, but also its not like the swashbuckler needs to be locked out of build options because its too OP....
This should be in rule forum. I flag it.
It's a complex case. The real question is: Does the word melee added to some Finishers bear meaning or is it just useless as Precise Strike already mentions melee.
So we are speaking of intent and balance.
Stunning Finishers stuns. As such, it's way stronger at range than at melee range.
Dual Finisher asks for both enemies to be in your reach, which is a strong limitations. If you are able to use it at range, it is very easy to land it. It is one of the strongest finishers in my opinion as it's a one action no MAP double attack with increased damage.
Unbalancing Finisher applies Flat-Footed, which is very hard to apply at range.
Overall, as a GM, I will apply the melee limitation, as it seems that these three Finishers have valid reasons to be limited to melee. Both of them are quite bad, but using Dual Finisher at range is definitely very strong.
Thanks for the flag superbidi.
Temperans I purposefully left out impaling, as it's the only one that's clear cut not affected because it specifies adjacent targets on top of everything.
Dual finisher at range though requires ranged agile of finesse thrown weapons.
From the best of my memory that limits you to d4 weapons, which is a big damper on damage, big enough to warrant being purposefully done so.
I don't think the Thrown weapon Trait is limiting the die as much as Agile and Finesse. It's a weapon trait, so it costs in the budget of the weapon, but as any other trait. You have Light Hammer, Tamchal Chakram and Combat Grapnel with D6, and Tamchal Chakram is even Deadly (but Advanced, too).
I don't think the Thrown weapon Trait is limiting the die as much as Agile and Finesse. It's a weapon trait, so it costs in the budget of the weapon, but as any other trait. You have Light Hammer, Tamchal Chakram and Combat Grapnel with D6, and Tamchal Chakram is even Deadly (but Advanced, too).
True, thanks for the correction, I was on the move.
Also, perhaps not on point for the initial premise but:
I just noticed something funny:
Precise Strike
You strike with flair. When you have panache and you Strike with an agile or finesse melee weapon or agile or finesse unarmed attack, you deal 2 additional precision damage. If the strike is part of a finisher, the additional damage is 2d6 precision damage instead.
With this wording... does it mean that precise strike applies to ranged unarmed attacks, such as a Leshy's seeds or a Kitsune's Foxfire?
Seedpod
You gain a seedpod ranged unarmed attack with a range increment of 10 feet that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage; these Strikes have the manipulate trait. On a critical hit, a seedpod bursts, issuing forth a tangle of vegetation that imposes a –10-foot circumstance penalty on the target's Speed for 1 round.
Foxfire
A crack of your tail sparks wisps of blue energy. Choose either electricity or fire when you gain this feat. You gain a foxfire ranged unarmed attack with a maximum range of 20 feet. The attack deals 1d4 damage of the chosen type (no ability modifier is added to the damage roll). Your foxfire attack is in the sling weapon group and has the magical trait. Like other unarmed attacks, you can improve this attack with handwraps of mighty blows.
Special If you are a frozen wind kitsune, your foxfire deals cold damage instead of electricity or fire.
If those unarmed attacks had the agile trait, then maybe.
Damnit had overlooked that... so close to my kitsune pew pew laser build being complete !
I think Flying Blades does exactly what is says it does. 1) add precise strike damage to thrown attacks and 2) you can make a thrown weapon attacks as part of a) Confident Finisher, and b) any other Finisher that includes a strike and precise strike damage.
Effectively Flying Blades allows you to read into any Finisher an additional phrase of "or with a thrown weapon with finesse or agile".
Is it a decent feat, sure. But is it game breaking good? I don't think so. all agile or finesse thrown weapons are 1d4 or 1d6 weapons, and they generally have a range of 10-20ft. They also miss out on the deadly trait which is good for the Swashbuckler big single hit damage. You will also have the issue of getting panache, as the most consistent way is to tumble.
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The ranged unarmed strikes granted by the Wild Winds Stance do have the agile trait, so would qualify, though a Swashbuckler with a Monk archetype would have to wait until level 16 to pick it up. Conversely, a Monk with a Swashbuckler archetype could have both Flying Blade and Finishing Precision by the time they qualify for the feat that gives you the stance at level 8, but at a greatly diminished damage output.
Edit: I forgot that Flying Blade specifies it has to be a thrown weapon, so everything I wrote here is wrong!
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The main outlier for flying blade is dual finisher, which becomes very good with thrown weapons if flying blade works with it. I don't think it's game breaking, but it's worth pausing for it.
I think that fits in the general theme of things that don't focus fire getting a bit more generous numbers.
The main outlier for flying blade is dual finisher, which becomes very good with thrown weapons if flying blade works with it. I don't think it's game breaking, but it's worth pausing for it.
I don't see the fuss it's one action for two attacks at the same MAP, you need to have panache, and spend panache to use. Due to the panache requirement, it's more like spending 2 actions to gain 3 rather than 1 for 2. You're also limited to Agile or Finesse thrown weapons which look like they're capped at d6. Seems good but not too good to be true.
Feel free to correct me, but I would say that blazons apply?
These brass emblems come in a variety of designs, usually customized to the purchaser to reflect the heraldry of a family or guild. Blazons of shared power come in sets of three. When you invest the blazons, you wear one of the three on your chest, and you attach the others to a pair of one-handed weapons, choosing one as the primary weapon and one as the secondary weapon. These weapons can be either melee weapons or ranged weapons. As long as you're wielding both the primary weapon and the secondary weapon, the secondary weapon gains the benefit of the fundamental runes on the primary weapon. A weapon can only have a single blazon of shared power attached to it at a time.
This seems to indicate they would work on, lets say, two chakrams?
Chakrams are not agile or finesse and doesn't work with precise strike.
Chakrams are not agile or finesse and doesn't work with precise strike.
Starknives then
In the context of finishers and the swashbuckler, it is very good. The main limitation for the class is you can only use one finisher a round. Getting 2 doubles your damage output, against 2 targets but still. Under normal melee circumstances, it's harder to pull off, needing 2 enemies in reach. Flying blade makes it usable every round and your best option assuming you have 2 targets to deal with. Honestly, makes swashbuckler contend for the best thrown weapon user.The main outlier for flying blade is dual finisher, which becomes very good with thrown weapons if flying blade works with it. I don't think it's game breaking, but it's worth pausing for it.I don't see the fuss it's one action for two attacks at the same MAP, you need to have panache, and spend panache to use. Due to the panache requirement, it's more like spending 2 actions to gain 3 rather than 1 for 2. You're also limited to Agile or Finesse thrown weapons which look like they're capped at d6. Seems good but not too good to be true.
I don't disagree that it's good, it definitely is, I just don't think it's so good it's harming the balance of the game.
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As long as you're wielding both the primary weapon and the secondary weapon, the secondary weapon gains the benefit of the fundamental runes on the primary weapon.
I think this means you do not get the benefit to thrown weapons as you stop wielding them briefly while throwing them.
Would a ranged dual finisher require two fully runed up weapons? Because that still doesn't work with thrown weapons & doubling rings, and I don't think there's any alternative that does work?
I think that's a pretty hefty counterbalance.
Clearly. I'm starting to consider that it's not that strong and slowly changing my position on the question. Maybe I shouldn't bother if one of my players bring this build.
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Feel free to correct me, but I would say that blazons apply?
These brass emblems come in a variety of designs, usually customized to the purchaser to reflect the heraldry of a family or guild. Blazons of shared power come in sets of three. When you invest the blazons, you wear one of the three on your chest, and you attach the others to a pair of one-handed weapons, choosing one as the primary weapon and one as the secondary weapon. These weapons can be either melee weapons or ranged weapons. As long as you're wielding both the primary weapon and the secondary weapon, the secondary weapon gains the benefit of the fundamental runes on the primary weapon. A weapon can only have a single blazon of shared power attached to it at a time.This seems to indicate they would work on, lets say, two chakrams?
Once you throw them, you are not wielding them anymore. Bye bye benefit of runes on the secondary weapon.
Noted for the blazons of power. Sucks though :(
This thread has me thinking of creating a class feat for my iron gods campaign... (This is fully homebrew though, so I can move it)
Something like:
gun fu adept
Swashbuckler 4
Prerequisites precise strike
You've learned to apply your flashy techniques to technological weapons as easily as melee attacks. When you have panache, you apply your precise strike damage on ranged Strikes you make with a 1 handed technological ranged weapon within that weapon's first range increment. The ranged weapon must be an automatic or semi automatic weapon. This also allows you to make a ranged weapon Strike for Confident Finisher and any other finisher that includes a Strike that can benefit from your precise strike.
I'm wondering if its balanced...
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As long as you're wielding both the primary weapon and the secondary weapon, the secondary weapon gains the benefit of the fundamental runes on the primary weapon.I think this means you do not get the benefit to thrown weapons as you stop wielding them briefly while throwing them.
If you ever stop wielding a thrown weapon, you can't add your proficiency bonus to attack with it. And you have to wield a weapon to Strike. I'm not sure how you can Strike with a proficiency bonus if you stop counting as wielding the thrown weapon before it hits.
What stops the ring is a specific melee requirement but the blazons allow ranged.
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Once you throw them, you are not wielding them anymore. Bye bye benefit of runes on the secondary weapon.
Not sure. That's an explicit feature of doubling rings, that blazons lacks the language makes me unsure if it's intended to work the same way (and in context, blazons were specifically created to be a more flexible alternative to doubling rings, which makes me even more unsure of that intent).