I love to grapple, and I get a little upset when people knock it,
but I am not a standard internet troll so I am open to feedback.
My latest character The Mwangi Manuhuter is a grappler I build most of my characters around grappling. because of my fierce and sometime inappropriate love of lucha libre.
am I fooling myself?
can a grappling character be helpful? after that first grapple I can pummel a foe with max damage until the cows come home.
Any body else feel my pain and my joy or am I alone?
Grappling has become a better option since UC has come out. As to it being a great option I'm not sure -- however it does have its uses.
Grappling has become a better option since UC has come out. As to it being a great option I'm not sure -- however it does have its uses.
I think you are correct but can I be so blinded by love of tackling things? I see it has a good rp option and a valuable tool.
is it one of those role play vs rollplay kind of things?
Or you could just pin it and let the rest of the party bash the stuffing out of it.
Of all the manoeuvres grappling best takes advantage of action economy. One standard action of a party member = one standard action of a BBEG = win.
I love to grapple, and I get a little upset when people knock it,
but I am not a standard internet troll so I am open to feedback.My latest character The Mwangi Manuhuter is a grappler I build most of my characters around grappling. because of my fierce and sometime inappropriate love of lucha libre.
am I fooling myself?
can a grappling character be helpful? after that first grapple I can pummel a foe with max damage until the cows come home.
Any body else feel my pain and my joy or am I alone?
With Greater Grapple allowing you to pin somebody in one round, thus leaving them open for my friendly rogue's coup-de-grace, I love it when someone I'm playing with tells me that they are building a grappler.
There are definitely some situations where the greatsword fighter is going to be more useful, but I'm with you that grapple can be a lot more fun and interesting.
I love to grapple, and I get a little upset when people knock it,
but I am not a standard internet troll so I am open to feedback.My latest character The Mwangi Manuhuter is a grappler I build most of my characters around grappling. because of my fierce and sometime inappropriate love of lucha libre.
am I fooling myself?
can a grappling character be helpful? after that first grapple I can pummel a foe with max damage until the cows come home.
Any body else feel my pain and my joy or am I alone?
Where does it say you get max damage? From my reading you still have to roll the dice, and full attacking kills people faster. You don't have to worry about them escaping the grapple, and the longer a fight last the more chances the enemy has to kill you. I am not knocking grapple since I like it too, but it should not be the first choice. It is a situational thing like the other Combat Maneuvers.
I am Selfish If I tackle the kobold i want to finish it, i consider it rude to steal the grapple thunder.
Where does it say you get max damage? From my reading you still have to roll the dice, and full attacking kills people faster. You don't have to worry about them escaping the grapple, and the longer a fight last the more chances the enemy has to kill you. I am not knocking grapple since I like it too, but it should not be the first choice. It is a situational thing like the other Combat Maneuvers.I love to grapple, and I get a little upset when people knock it,
but I am not a standard internet troll so I am open to feedback.My latest character The Mwangi Manuhuter is a grappler I build most of my characters around grappling. because of my fierce and sometime inappropriate love of lucha libre.
am I fooling myself?
can a grappling character be helpful? after that first grapple I can pummel a foe with max damage until the cows come home.
Any body else feel my pain and my joy or am I alone?
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
From the PRD
AM I Reading this correct equal to my unarmed strike? 1d8+str
I love grappling characters and wish that my players would use this tactic more often. That I blame that on inexperience, honestly, but it would be oustanding to have the big, burly warriors grappling and scrapping with each other during the big fight, and replicating the fist fights that seem to be in every major action movie.
That and improvised weapons, I want to see people use those more (I actually have one player with Improved Grapple and all the Improvised Weapon feats) cause that kind of stuff makes for a more interesting, and unexpected, fight (IMHO).
Grapple is great because you can inflict auto damage while in control (as a standard action). This damage is as a unarmed attack and is rolled. With greater grapple you can inflict damage twice (each a move action). However, the person grappling can only auto inflict damage from a single attack while the enemy you grapple can full-attack you. So the moral of the story is don't grapple things with lots of attacks.
I don't like to use grapple just to damage someone. I much prefer to move towards a pin. This is mainly because at higher levels there is a damage disparity between what you can do and what they can do while in a grapple.
It doesn't say 'equal to the max damage of'. You just roll damage like you normally would when scoring a hit. [/QU
I read that different if you were supposed to roll it should say roll
but it says equal that means in my book at least your full damage?
am i crazy?
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Grapple is great because you can inflict auto damage while in control (as a standard action). This damage is as a unarmed attack and is rolled. With greater grapple you can inflict damage twice (each a move action). However, the person grappling can only auto inflict damage from a single attack while the enemy you grapple can full-attack you. So the moral of the story is don't grapple things with lots of attacks.
Or if you grapple something with lots of attacks, pin first THEN do damage with maintained checks.
Yes Lobolusk you are crazy :)
Grapple is great because you can inflict auto damage while in control (as a standard action). This damage is as a unarmed attack and is rolled. With greater grapple you can inflict damage twice (each a move action). However, the person grappling can only auto inflict damage from a single attack while the enemy you grapple can full-attack you. So the moral of the story is don't grapple things with lots of attacks.
Or if you grapple something with lots of attacks, pin first THEN do damage with maintained checks.
Yes Lobolusk you are crazy :)
i don't know.....i see your point but why would have to roll you are hitting automatically
if i tackle a 3rd grader and hold him down and hit him has hard as i can i shouldn't have to roll damage he is not able to resist in any way.
Damage is all ways assumed to be rolled, just like attacks are. If the book says attack _____ that does not make it an automatic hit. You still have to roll for the attack unless it is targeted attack(certain spells for example) or AoE.
The damage of your unarmed strike, natural attack, etc., looks something like 1d8+stuff.
When you make NORMAL attacks with those weapons, you apply the damage of that weapon, i.e. 1d8+stuff.
When grapple lets you deal damage equal to those weapons, that is exactly what a normal attack with those weapons does.
No max damage stuff. Lucha libre rots the brain.
Grapple is great because you can inflict auto damage while in control (as a standard action). This damage is as a unarmed attack and is rolled. With greater grapple you can inflict damage twice (each a move action). However, the person grappling can only auto inflict damage from a single attack while the enemy you grapple can full-attack you. So the moral of the story is don't grapple things with lots of attacks.
Or if you grapple something with lots of attacks, pin first THEN do damage with maintained checks.
Yes Lobolusk you are crazy :)
i don't know.....i see your point but why would have to roll you are hitting automatically
if i tackle a 3rd grader and hold him down and hit him has hard as i can i shouldn't have to roll damage he is not able to resist in any way.
You don't have to roll to hit him...you have to roll to see how hard you hit him.
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Your not holding him down your making an attack roll (CMB) against a defence (CMD). His CMD represents his ability to defend himself, much like AC does normally.
When your grappling someone your not holding him down, its debateable whether even when someone is pinned you are 'holding them down'. They still aren't prone when pinned, its more like you have their arms pinned.
Trust us, your wrong on this one.
Grapple is great because you can inflict auto damage while in control (as a standard action). This damage is as a unarmed attack and is rolled. With greater grapple you can inflict damage twice (each a move action). However, the person grappling can only auto inflict damage from a single attack while the enemy you grapple can full-attack you. So the moral of the story is don't grapple things with lots of attacks.
Or if you grapple something with lots of attacks, pin first THEN do damage with maintained checks.
Yes Lobolusk you are crazy :)
i don't know.....i see your point but why would have to roll you are hitting automatically
if i tackle a 3rd grader and hold him down and hit him has hard as i can i shouldn't have to roll damage he is not able to resist in any way.
The enemy is not helpless and at your mercy so you may not be able to get a direct hit. As another example even when you coup de grace someone, whom by the way, is worse off than someone who is grappled you still have to roll for damage.
Few things
1) No you don't get max damage
2) Greater grapple is debatable on whether or not you can pin in one round.
3) When in a grapple you can take one attack (this ends the grapple without greater grapple to maintain), your opponent can take his full attack.
4) If you grapple, eat a full attack, then pin instead of attack, your opponent can escape the whole thing just by resisting the grapple.
5) Be a druid, be a snake, have fun constricting things. That's what I do for a grapple character.
The enemy is not helpless and at your mercy so you may not be able to get a direct hit. As another example even when you coup de grace someone, whom by the way, is worse off than someone who is grappled you still have to roll for damage.Grapple is great because you can inflict auto damage while in control (as a standard action). This damage is as a unarmed attack and is rolled. With greater grapple you can inflict damage twice (each a move action). However, the person grappling can only auto inflict damage from a single attack while the enemy you grapple can full-attack you. So the moral of the story is don't grapple things with lots of attacks.
Or if you grapple something with lots of attacks, pin first THEN do damage with maintained checks.
Yes Lobolusk you are crazy :)
i don't know.....i see your point but why would have to roll you are hitting automatically
if i tackle a 3rd grader and hold him down and hit him has hard as i can i shouldn't have to roll damage he is not able to resist in any way.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
i don't read you have to roll damage in that one either are we drinking the same koolaid? you just do max crit damage with that attack
You don't do max damage on a crit either. It is an auto crit, not auto max damage x2/3/4
i don't read you have to roll damage in that one either are we drinking the same koolaid? you just do max crit damage with that attack
Where are you getting the idea that you automatically deal maximum damage any time the rules don't specifically tell you to roll damage?
You don't do max damage on a crit either. It is an auto crit, not auto max damage x2/3/4
doesn't make any sense to me you swing your sword at some 3rd grader's neck while is laying on the ground, you arent going to hold back if the object is to kill him right?
why would I roll? just my interpolation not of the rules .
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3) When in a grapple you can take one attack (this ends the grapple without greater grapple to maintain), your opponent can take his full attack.
You make a check to maintain the grapple and deal damage in addition to this, if thats the option you choose. People like to laud the 'full attack VS single!' drawback but if they choose to make that full attack, enjoy a hefty +5 on pinning them (if you can't survive one full attack you shouldn't be grappling...) Then until they break the pin, your getting an attack every round while making them absolutely useless and easy to hit by your party members. If they do break the pin, you can still full attack yourself.
Grapples a great alternative to a single attack when you are only getting a standard action to attack the enemy- especially if your the first one to get near a large or bigger enemy; get the grapple on and the rest of your party can approach without worrying about AOO.
doesn't make any sense to me you swing your sword at some 3rd grader's neck while is laying on the ground, you arent going to hold back if the object is to kill him right?
Rolling damage isn't due to "holding back"; it's due to the randomness of the damage done by the weapon.
The rules are clear that your weapon attacks do a random amount of damage. You don't get to do max damage unless a rule specifically says you do (and honestly, in Pathfinder, I can't even think of any rule that lets you do this).
i don't read you have to roll damage in that one either are we drinking the same koolaid? you just do max crit damage with that attackWhere are you getting the idea that you automatically deal maximum damage any time the rules don't specifically tell you to roll damage?
in the grapple context it says "equal to" i read that to be my total unarmed strike damage?
in the coudecrace or how ever the hell you spell it. it says you do critical damage? and an auto hit i read that to mean you dont roll.. it makes sense in my mind you would never hold back if you are trying to kill somebody? and they can'mt ove or defend them selves
in the grapple context it says "equal to" i read that to be my total unarmed strike damage?
Your "total unarmed strike damage" would still be something like d6+4.
Again, you don't get your maximum damage; you still have to roll for damage. That's how the rules work.
in the grapple context it says "equal to" i read that to be my total unarmed strike damage?Your "total unarmed strike damage" would still be something like d6+4.
Again, you don't get your maximum damage; you still have to roll for damage. That's how the rules work.
weird , I disagree with your interpretation and only the amazing james jacobs can change my mind.
Thankyou for your feedback though i will mull it over.
in the grapple context it says "equal to" i read that to be my total unarmed strike damage?
in the coudecrace or how ever the hell you spell it. it says you do critical damage? and an auto hit i read that to mean you dont roll.. it makes sense in my mind you would never hold back if you are trying to kill somebody? and they can'mt ove or defend them selves
It says equal to your unarmed strike, your unarmed is equal to 1d8+x it is not equal to 8+x
unarmed = 1d8+x
Unarmed =/= 8+x
and about the not holding back, you do realize you still roll damage against inanimate objects right? it has nothing to do with how much effort you put in (that's what str is for), The weapon damage is things like their throat muscle twitching as you cut so the vital spot ran against the flat of the blade.
in the grapple context it says "equal to" i read that to be my total unarmed strike damage?
in the coudecrace or how ever the hell you spell it. it says you do critical damage? and an auto hit i read that to mean you dont roll.. it makes sense in my mind you would never hold back if you are trying to kill somebody? and they can'mt ove or defend them selves
It says equal to your unarmed strike, your unarmed is equal to 1d8+x it is not equal to 8+x
unarmed = 1d8+x
Unarmed =/= 8+xand about the not holding back, you do realize you still roll damage against inanimate objects right? it has nothing to do with how much effort you put in (that's what str is for), The weapon damage is things like their throat muscle twitching as you cut so the vital spot ran against the flat of the blade.
touche
Does pinned = helpless? If it doesn't you can't coup de grace...
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
i don't read you have to roll damage in that one either are we drinking the same koolaid? you just do max crit damage with that attack
That is true for a coup de grace, but not for another player attacking a grappled opponent. A coup de grace occurs when you are attacking a helpless character (sleeping, held by a Hold X spell, unconcious, etc). A grappled or pinned character has the ability to resist the grapple and fight back, meaning that they are not helpless. There are in a bad spot, but they are not helpless.
Once the CMB attack is made, and you are able to grapple that charactr, you can roll the damage but, again, the grappled oppenent is not helpless so no auto-hit, max damage, uber attack of doom. That would make grapple way to strong and all the cool kids would be doing it, instead of it being underutilized.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
i don't read you have to roll damage in that one either are we drinking the same koolaid? you just do max crit damage with that attack
That is true for a coup de grace, but not for another player attacking a grappled opponent. A coup de grace occurs when you are attacking a helpless character (sleeping, held by a Hold X spell, unconcious, etc). A grappled or pinned character has the ability to resist the grapple and fight back, meaning that they are not helpless. There are in a bad spot, but they are not helpless.
Once the CMB attack is made, and you are able to grapple that charactr, you can roll the damage but, again, the grappled oppenent is not helpless so no auto-hit, max damage, uber attack of doom. That would make grapple way to strong and all the cool kids would be doing it, instead of it being underutilized.
most of these cool kids play monks for that very same reason.
at least that is why i grapple.
Does pinned = helpless? If it doesn't you can't coup de grace...
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound
The bound option you can achieve with Grapple is functionally identical to the Pinned condition, in terms of penalties to the target (you just don`t need to maintain with Bound, the ropes do that for you). Pinned means they can`t really take any physical actions, which seems `at the mercy of opponents`. Thus, Pinned = Helpless, IMHO.
I would think Pinned is what the rules mean by `Held`... Obviously a case of bad writing if they can`t write what they mean. Or, you can read `held` as coresponding to BOTH Grappled AND Pinned (Paizo`s explanation of Grappled is that `you are holding onto them`), though I don`t think that would be good for the game.
A grappled or pinned character has the ability to resist the grapple and fight back, meaning that they are not helpless.
Once the CMB attack is made, and you are able to grapple that charactr, you can roll the damage but, again, the grappled oppenent is not helpless so no auto-hit, max damage, uber attack of doom.
Uh.. a Pinned character definitely DOESN`T have the ability to fight back.
There no difference in what a Pinned or Bound character can do.Coup-de-Grace`s definitely DON`T do max damage... already mentioned by other posters. They just auto-crit.
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weird , I disagree with your interpretation and only the amazing james jacobs can change my mind.
It's not a matter of interpretation. It's just a matter of reading the rules and understanding how English words form sentences.
Most of these cool kids play monks for that very same reason.
At least that is why I grapple.
Never played a Monk, and never played with a player of a Monk. Flavor wise, never could find a setting that they made sense in. [/opinion] But I could definetly see a high end monk grappling and pounding on a target thanks to grapple. Course, that brings to mind a question about Grapple and Flury of Blows. Would those two be able to be used together? I.E., the monk successfully grapples the target and then starts wailing on the target with Flury?
Coup-de-Grace`s definitely DON`T do max damage... already mentioned by other posters. They just auto-crit.
Oops, you are right. I must have mixed my 4e in with my Pathfinder. Rookie mistake there.
It's not a matter of interpretation. It's just a matter of reading the rules and understanding how English words form sentences.weird , I disagree with your interpretation and only the amazing james jacobs can change my mind.
says you. we can agree to disagree. I have done this in a few games and it is by no means a game breaker.
Never played a Monk, and never played with a player of a Monk. Flavor wise, never could find a setting that they made sense in. [/opinion] But I could definetly see a high end monk grappling and pounding on a target thanks to grapple. Course, that brings to mind a question about Grapple and Flury of Blows. Would those two be able to be used together? I.E., the monk successfully grapples the target and then starts wailing on the target with Flury?Most of these cool kids play monks for that very same reason.
At least that is why I grapple.
Only the Maneuver Master can do this. Other monks have to take a standard or move action to maintain the grapple each round, so no flurry.
says you.
Says the rules of the game.
This is not in any way ambiguous. The rules of the game make it entirely clear that you roll for damage.
Is English your first language?
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Emphasis mine. This is not helpless, imho.
says you.Says the rules of the game.
This is not in any way ambiguous. The rules of the game make it entirely clear that you roll for damage.
Is English your first language?
It is possible that Lobolusk is arguing for the sake of arguing. I deal with people all day long that do that. They know you are right, can clearly see you are right, but because they are getting a reaction they continue to argue.
Either way, AvalonXQ is dead on, there is no "lose interpretation" in this situation. All damage in Pathfinder, short of things like a Maximized spell, is rolled. The only way around this, house-rules.
The enemy is not helpless and at your mercy so you may not be able to get a direct hit. As another example even when you coup de grace someone, whom by the way, is worse off than someone who is grappled you still have to roll for damage.Grapple is great because you can inflict auto damage while in control (as a standard action). This damage is as a unarmed attack and is rolled. With greater grapple you can inflict damage twice (each a move action). However, the person grappling can only auto inflict damage from a single attack while the enemy you grapple can full-attack you. So the moral of the story is don't grapple things with lots of attacks.
Or if you grapple something with lots of attacks, pin first THEN do damage with maintained checks.
Yes Lobolusk you are crazy :)
i don't know.....i see your point but why would have to roll you are hitting automatically
if i tackle a 3rd grader and hold him down and hit him has hard as i can i shouldn't have to roll damage he is not able to resist in any way.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
i don't read you have to roll damage in that one either are we drinking the same koolaid? you just do max crit damage with that attack
Rolling for damage is the roll unless otherwise said. That is just how the rules work. In order for you idea to have merit you would need an exception clause.
Why would have have to roll for constrict but not the regular damage.Contrict is a special monster attack that only happens on a grapple. Constict is list as XdY+W. If you did not have to roll it would just give you a flat amount of damage to do such as 12 or 15 as an example.
says you.Says the rules of the game.
This is not in any way ambiguous. The rules of the game make it entirely clear that you roll for damage.
Is English your first language?
yes it is. grammar and doing this and working are not. the reading states "equal to your unarmed damage"
why would it say equal to? that makes no sense if it doesn't mean your unarmed strike damage
it should read you : you can make an damage roll to inflict a unarmed attack, natural attack yadda yadda.
the meaning is that the damage is inflicted ie not rolled it just happens and it is equal to my unarmed strike damage which is 1d8+x
listen i am not going argue with you i appreciate your feedback and you are probably right., but dreams die hard with me. so i will think about it re read it when i am not at work and typing like a drunk bunny running form a wolf. and let you know. lets part way as friends not internet enemies.
You don't do max damage on a crit either. It is an auto crit, not auto max damage x2/3/4doesn't make any sense to me you swing your sword at some 3rd grader's neck while is laying on the ground, you arent going to hold back if the object is to kill him right?
why would I roll? just my interpolation not of the rules .
You are not grappling a 3rd grader. If the monster has enough movement to possible escape and even take over the grapple what makes you think he is open enough to give you a perfect shot? Grappling is kind of like MMA fighting. That is why the other person can reverse the grapple. It is not like you have him pinned to the ground with your foot, while you stand over him ready to plunge the sword into him.
i don't read you have to roll damage in that one either are we drinking the same koolaid? you just do max crit damage with that attackWhere are you getting the idea that you automatically deal maximum damage any time the rules don't specifically tell you to roll damage?in the grapple context it says "equal to" i read that to be my total unarmed strike damage?
in the coudecrace or how ever the hell you spell it. it says you do critical damage? and an auto hit i read that to mean you dont roll.. it makes sense in my mind you would never hold back if you are trying to kill somebody? and they can'mt ove or defend them selves
I have seen those mechanical punching bags things that measure how hard you hit. People dont hit with the same about of force. In affect they are rolling for damage. I fail to see the issue here.
says you.Says the rules of the game.
This is not in any way ambiguous. The rules of the game make it entirely clear that you roll for damage.
Is English your first language?
It is possible that Lobolusk is arguing for the sake of arguing. I deal with people all day long that do that. They know you are right, can clearly see you are right, but because they are getting a reaction they continue to argue.
Either way, AvalonXQ is dead on, there is no "lose interpretation" in this situation. All damage in Pathfinder, short of things like a Maximized spell, is rolled. The only way around this, house-rules.
again i am not reading rolled into equal in my mind equal replaces rolled so the grapple rule is an exception.
Well, this certainly clears up why one would think monks are awesome...
again i am not reading rolled into equal in my mind equal replaces rolled so the grapple rule is an exception.
But as stated it is = to 1d8+x, in order to do 1d8 you kinda have to roll.