The church giving permission to "confiscate" magic items to return them to the church for a more proper burial...
James Jacobs! This is one of those things that ought to go in the Runelords hardcover! (I'm pretty sure you're aware already)
Razmiran didn't need reworked with the introduction of Oracles, so why would this change? The church of Aroden and the church of Razmir still hold a lot of political power either way, having godless clerics doen't mean that the existing faiths go away or change any mor than they do with the idea of Bards casting healing spells, Oracles having all the powers of a Cleric without a belief system, or anything. Aroden's death would not change in anyway, no would it's importance or aftermath. As soon as the world found out he was gone, everyone's faith in hm would have been shattered, meaning no more divine spells, until they all found another system of belief.The thing is Razmiran is not the only nation that would have to be reworked, it would also change the whole last 100 years of history. Aodens death would have been near meaning less, no civil war, No grand upheaval...just the "god" stopped talking with zero other in world effects.
The whole setting would be different if godless clerics were possible. It is one of the key features of the setting.
No, it does infact change a great, great deal. Razmiriran is a false god solely because he does not have clerics and he is limited because of that. Arodens death and the loose of power of his clerics triggered the fall of cheilix, the civil war and everything in one way or another in the last 100 years. Not even talking about the history of RAhadom ( hello church of man)
God-less clerics makes both imposable. It changes a massive amount in the setting.
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Yet it bugs you that the Cleric player can make their own faith up, (for their own character)? That generally means tht the player is both going out of their way to create an aspect of their characters backstory, and also introducing something new to the game, leaving their mark on the setting.
Indeed, I encourage my players to make stuff up. I find that my players are *much* more invested in setting detail that they've had some hand in making (whether it be a town or village, an organization or philosophy, a fighting-school or a famous local family of red-headed witch-women who run with the wolves, of which they are the latest).
Barring someone grabbing the two sexiest Domains they can find for their 'build' and naming their god 'Banjo the Hand-Puppet,' I'm all for a Cleric player telling me that he or she wants to play a cleric of some local demigod, or the 'god of mount Aisnir' or whatever, so long as that player is willing to offer up some fluff so that I can integrate it into the setting (and said fluff doesn't fly in the face of what we're doing. No 'Joesiris, Egyptian God of Mexican Wrestling' need apply!).
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No, it does infact change a great, great deal. Razmiriran is a false god solely because he does not have clerics and he is limited because of that. Arodens death and the loose of power of his clerics triggered the fall of cheilix, the civil war and everything in one way or another in the last 100 years. Not even talking about the history of RAhadom ( hello church of man)
God-less clerics makes both imposable. It changes a massive amount in the setting.
I can see, and do use the Golarion setting with both, and there is no issues. I think that you are trying to make it an issue, when none really exists. If there are godless Clerics, who says that Razmir still can not grant spells? Aroden's faith, as I said, could and would still lose ll their powers, and have all the same events afterwards, just as they did with Oracles, Witches, Inquisitors, and whatever else that's been added since then. Aroden's followers where not godless Clerics, so would have had to find another faith when their source of faith died, just like normal. Rahadoum, specifically is antireligious, something that a godless Cleric still couldn't be, so again, not an issue.
But I do not want to derail this thread, though this is fairly close to on topic. I just don't see the issues, and I am familiar with the setting. So we can either continue in spoilers, another thread, or just agree to disagree. I'm interested in your idea, I'm just not seeing it, myself.
The fact remains that if godless clerics are possible then Arodens church never folded like in cannon. It only did so as all his clerics lost power and to this day can not gain power, no matter the amount of faith they have. But if you had God-less those who believed would still have gotten spells as faith alone would have been enough.
If his church never folded, the civil war never happened. If God-less clerics are about RAhadom would be very different, and yes Razmiriran would not be a false god. You are simply adding them in without thinking of how it affects the world. In effect you are ignoring all the ripples and changes it causes and hand waving something that's very presence rewrites vast parts, history and nations of the world.
God-less clerics are not a simple thing as you seem to make them out, they have far reaching and vast effects.
Godless clerics essentially make the presence or absence of gods irrelevant. That can not help but have a tremendous impact in the way the world is shaped.
It also devalues clerics tremendously. They become nothing more than another form of wizard.
Pretty much this. What they have faith in and if its real, made up or now dead has zero baring. If someone told you Aroden was dead and you could no longer feel him but knew, you just knew your god could not be dead...well he is just not talking to you is all something must be stopping him, but he simply can not be dead. He is the God of man after all. Your faith is unbroken.
I suppose you could work a godless cleric into your game, but if it's a healing issue, you could also play a witch with the heal hex, an oracle with the Life mystery, or an alchemist who brews cure elixirs, to avoid the whole 'god' thing. But if you want the benefits of the cleric class, you should probably play.... a cleric who worships a god. That's what clerics do, worship a particular god. Those that don't might be witches, druids, etc. It's Their Thing, like Barbarian Rage, Summoner Summon. If you don't want a religiousy character, don't choose cleric as a class.
Officially they do not need them, but if they have a god it must be one step.So how about paladins in Golarion specifically?
I'll fully admit I'm not big on the whole, "Got to have a god" thing but knowing how it goes for paladin's in Golarion would be nice too.
Yeah I'm aware that was the offical 'core' stance but I was wondering if it was any different for Golarion specifically (much the same way as clerics are different in Golarion as compared to the normal rules).
When it comes to setting specific stuff I'm much more chill about it since it's not across the board system rules.
No, that is the official golarion stance as well. They do not have to worship a god, but if they do it must be one step.
Only clerics need a god on Golarion. Everyone else seems to gain power from other beings or something.
Cool -- I'm good with that. Actually I'm alright with clerics needing a god across the board too -- after all in my opinion they cheat already so they best have a deity backing it up!
To be honest I find the idea of any divine class not needing a god or at lest a pardon of some time to just be...well wrong. To me it seems at odds with what a divine class is.
For me druids make sense on their own, and as you know I'm a big fan of paladin's without gods -- for me it's a case of 'somethings are simply so right and good they transcend themselves'.
I'm kind of fond of oracles too as almost divine leeches or random sparkings of divine power that the gods themselves don't actually have control over. Almost like a wilder in the wheel of time series -- it simply happened and they almost got burnt for it. The only thing I don't like about oracles is how much their class features out do the sorcerer's in comparison.
Yeah I'm aware that was the offical 'core' stance but I was wondering if it was any different for Golarion specifically (much the same way as clerics are different in Golarion as compared to the normal rules).
When it comes to setting specific stuff I'm much more chill about it since it's not across the board system rules.
Like Seeker said, that is the official stance on paladins in Golarion too, or at least as official as it can be without being in print in a book, but James Jacobs has many times posted that paladins do not have to have a patron deity. Probably, since this is not different for Golarion than it is in the Core, is why it is not spelled out in any of the Golarion books. Actually, there was a passage in the old Campaign Setting book that said that not all paladins on Golarion had a patron deity. Here is the quote:
Some paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shelyn, but paladins who serve no specific god are actually more common.
I think the only reason this is not in the new Inner Sea World Guide is because the entire section detailing how the character classes function in Golarion was cut.
Yeah I wanted to be sure I was up to date -- after all at one point something slipped through about paladins of Asmodeus and that's been purposefully cut since.
For me druids make sense on their own, and as you know I'm a big fan of paladin's without gods -- for me it's a case of 'somethings are simply so right and good they transcend themselves'.
I'm kind of fond of oracles too as almost divine leeches or random sparkings of divine power that the gods themselves don't actually have control over. Almost like a wilder in the wheel of time series -- it simply happened and they almost got burnt for it. The only thing I don't like about oracles is how much their class features out do the sorcerer's in comparison.
Oracles I get, they are drafted. But not druids or paladins. Druids are more or less nature clerics and something gives them that power be it a fey god or a wilderness god or something.
Paladins make even less sense as something watches them and revokes the power. Be it angles or whatever something does indeed have the power to pull their paladin hood.
Anyhow non of that is golarion related, just my thoughts on it.
Yeah I wanted to be sure I was up to date -- after all at one point something slipped through about paladins of Asmodeus and that's been purposefully cut since.
God-less cleric slipped though not long after that. But the author of the book has said on the forum he snuk those in because he does not like the idea of not being allowed to not be a god-less cleric. So he tried to go around the setting rule.
And as soon as it was spotted it was also ruled an error.
Yeah I'm more humanistic when it comes to paladins, almost like a jedi thing -- it's there and it's certainly divine, and the Gods can certainly help guide... but even they are at a lost on exactly how it happens, or what it is (which is why there aren't non-LG paladins out there).
Druids I see as the very earth itself giving them power -- nature as it is -- not as some god wants it to be.
Of course I don't see the gods as all powerful either so that might play into it.
Yeah I wanted to be sure I was up to date -- after all at one point something slipped through about paladins of Asmodeus and that's been purposefully cut since.God-less cleric slipped though not long after that. But the author of the book has said on the forum he snuk those in because he does not like the idea of not being allowed to not be a god-less cleric. So he tried to go around the setting rule.
And as soon as it was spotted it was also ruled an error.
Which book was that?
The Sargava book maybe? Been a while and I no longer have it bookmarked.
Edit: I am thinking it was Heart of the Jungle really.
The Sargava book maybe? Been a while and I no longer have it bookmarked.
Edit: I am thinking it was Heart of the Jungle really.
Yeah, it was one of the books that was either part of the Serpent's Skull AP or one of the support books for it. One of the writers tried to make the shamans (or witch doctors?) of one or more of the tribes to be ancestor-worshiping clerics, but it was caught and changed to a different divine class.
Here it is Heart of the Jungle page 19
Yeah that is how I recalled it as well.
Here it is Heart of the Jungle page 19
Yeah that is how I recalled it as well.
Cheers.
By the way, this topic reminded me of the Order of the Godclaw Hellknights. They have their own religious system based around all the Lawful deities (except Zon-Kuthon) and have their own domains to pick from (Glory, Law, Protection, Strength and War domains) and the Morningstar as their Favored Weapon. But according to an earlier post somewhere around here made by James Jacobs, there is no option to be a Cleric of the Godclaw, and instead you have to pick one of the gods they worship within that order (Asmodeus, Torag, Iomedae, Abadar or Irori).
Why throw aside such an interesting idea that was part of Golarion canon?
Why stop a Cleric from worshipping multiple gods if they need to worship gods in Golarion anyway?
Why throw aside such an interesting idea that was part of Golarion canon?
Why stop a Cleric from worshipping multiple gods if they need to worship gods in Golarion anyway?
You can still play such a PC, but you need one of those gods as your god. If and only if you are a cleric of the Godclaw you may use the Godclaw domains and weapon. However you still have one of those 5 gods as your god. Worshiping in the godclaw manner does not sidestep the one god per cleric rule.
The cleric does not fill that role, the oracle does. A cleric has devoted himself to a single god. He may know enough about the others to hold service or say rites to those faithful of other gods, this is common in small communities with only one cleric.However as a cleric he only has a single god he worships as "his" god and gods do not share clergy. why would they?
It boils down to there are several divine classes that can fill a role of "priest of many gods" however a cleric is not among them.
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By the way, this topic reminded me of the Order of the Godclaw Hellknights. They have their own religious system based around all the Lawful deities (except Zon-Kuthon) and have their own domains to pick from (Glory, Law, Protection, Strength and War domains) and the Morningstar as their Favored Weapon. But according to an earlier post somewhere around here made by James Jacobs, there is no option to be a Cleric of the Godclaw, and instead you have to pick one of the gods they worship within that order (Asmodeus, Torag, Iomedae, Abadar or Irori).
Why throw aside such an interesting idea that was part of Golarion canon?
Why stop a Cleric from worshipping multiple gods if they need to worship gods in Golarion anyway?
The 'reason' for their being no godless clerics in Golarion, to prevent it from messing with the setting assumptions regarding Rahadoum or Razmiran or the death of Aroden, doesn't really apply to Godclaw clerics, who manifestly are worshipping living gods, and getting their domains / spells / etc. from gods, if not one specific god.
Gods & Magic also has options for pantheistic clerics of the elven gods or clerics of Torag who can swap out their domains at the start of the day for one of the domains of one of Torag's dwarven pantheon, plus there are NPC clerics of Shimme-Magalla (sp?), a syncretist god composd of Desna and Gozreh (IIRCH).
So, there's plenty of precedent for this sort of thing, and it does nothing to interfere with the Golarion specific fluff against clerics of philosophies, or godless clerics or clerics of dead gods, so, it's not going to break any setting assumptions to use clerics of the Godclaw or Shimmy-Magoo or the Elven / Dwarven pantheons.
Clerics of 'the Divinity of Man' operating in Rahadoum, or Clerics of the 'Prophecies of the Kalistrade,' or Clerics of Razmir would remain out of the question. Presumably, Clerics of Walkena (despite appearing in the NPC guide) would also be sir-not-appearing-in-this-campaign-setting.
Adepts, Bards, Druids, Celestial Sorcerers, Oracles, Witches, etc. can all make fine non-Cleric 'priests,' so it's really not a hardship. Even Rangers are capable of some half-way decent divine spellcasting, without having to worship anything.
Whether or not Paladins and Inquisitors can also fill this role is between you and the 'god' of your particular campaign, the GM.
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Gods & Magic also has options for pantheistic clerics of the elven gods or clerics of Torag who can swap out their domains at the start of the day for one of the domains of one of Torag's dwarven pantheon, plus there are NPC clerics of Shimme-Magalla (sp?), a syncretist god composd of Desna and Gozreh (IIRCH).
I do wonder about those. I have figured they have been more or less changed to not being able to do that as well. Many things in the older pre pathfinder rule books have been overruled. The setting was a bit more in flux back then and this would not be the first thing changed ( elves didn't sleep in those early books either)
Just to be clear I am basing my thought that these have been written out of the setting upon quotes such as this.
Nope. Pantheist worshipers who want to cast spells are oracles. That's what an oracle basically is, and this distinction helps IMMENSELY to further separate what a cleric is from what an oracle is. In the same way that spellbooks are for wizards and bloodlines are for sorcerers.
James -you know I'd love to see you bend on your stance a little on this one. My offer still stands. I'll write you a sidebar, gratis, that reconciles Core Rulebook allowances and Golarion Pantheism/Philosophical worship (NOT this "godless" worship, though) to leave the door open for folks who want to play official pantheistic clerics in Golarion. I could do it in four sentences! =-)
C'moooooooon, James. I'll let you pick any two domains you want!!! ;-)
Brandon
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I do wonder about those. I have figured they have been more or less changed to not being able to do that as well. Many things in the older pre pathfinder rule books have been overruled. The setting was a bit more in flux back then and this would not be the first thing changed ( elves didn't sleep in those early books either)
To keep the setting working-as-intended, I'd rule out Clerics of Walkena or Razmir or Aroden or philosophies like the Prophecies of the Kalistrade or the 'divinity of man.'
But the Godclaw / elven pantheists / Shimye-Whatever clerics don't do anything to change the nature of the setting, the workings of Rahadoum, Druma, Razmiran, etc. and don't violate the 'must get powers from a god' setting rule, so I'd be inclined to leave them canonical, rather than sweep them away with concepts that *do* violate James' stated reason (don't mess with Rahadoum / Razmiran / death of Aroden) upthread.
There's been a ton of questionable stuff printed that James isn't terribly fond of, and yet, I see some of it (like the Godclaw) as an opportunity to expand player options and encourage some powerful RP potential (a cleric of a group that includes Torag, Iomedae *and* Asmodeus? Yowza!) and grow the setting, not as a threat.
The thing is, even a "pantheist " Cleric like the Godclaw or the elves would have one god who was their "personal" god. You could still use the God claw domains, however one of those five would be granting you the spells and the power. Not all five at once. If you want all five to do it, the cleric class is not a good fit.
Shimye-Whatever ( Made me laugh) would depend on what parts of her aspects you are more drawn to. Then again Gozreh is more or less two gods anyhow so who honestly knows here.
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Shimye-Whatever ( Made me laugh) would depend on what parts of her aspects you are more drawn to. Then again Gozreh is more or less two gods anyhow so who honestly knows here.
There's even a possibility that 'Norgorber' is a team of four very different rogues that took the test of the Starstone together!
Shimye-Whatever ( Made me laugh) would depend on what parts of her aspects you are more drawn to. Then again Gozreh is more or less two gods anyhow so who honestly knows here.There's even a possibility that 'Norgorber' is a team of rogues that took the test of the Starstone together!
The idea of rogues being fused into one being does amuse me. Not that you meant that, but I do like the idea of one being, but much like Gozreh ( or the big D) it could have more then one mind ( often warring minds) about some things.
Another thought would be that Shimye-Whatever is a new "god" maybe a demi god that was created by fused aspects of two other gods. Its more common in myth to go the other way, with one god splitting into two. But it is possible that "avatars" or aspects of these two gods somehow fused.
The idea of rogues being fused into one being does amuse me. Not that you meant that, but I do like the idea of one being, but much like Gozreh ( or the big D) it could have more then one mind ( often warring minds) about some things.
Another thought would be that Shimye-Whatever is a new "god" maybe a demi god that was created by fused aspects of two other gods. Its more common in myth to go the other way, with one god splitting into two. But it is possible that "avatars" or aspects of these two gods somehow fused.
Er, who is "the big D"?
Also, I could totally see Desna and Gozreh both being up for making a conjoined avatar with each other for the sake of their worshippers/Garund (which only acts in ways they both approve of, being extensions of them both, which explains why Shimy-girl doesn't do too terribly much beyond her allotted area).
The big D would be Demogorgon. He had two heads and two minds that did not always get along.
The idea of rogues being fused into one being does amuse me. Not that you meant that, but I do like the idea of one being, but much like Gozreh ( or the big D) it could have more then one mind ( often warring minds) about some things.
There's even a possibility that 'Norgorber' is a team of rogues that took the test of the Starstone together!
It's always seemed to me that this kind of idea would be a good way to run a party of PCs through the test of the starstone.
The idea of rogues being fused into one being does amuse me. Not that you meant that, but I do like the idea of one being, but much like Gozreh ( or the big D) it could have more then one mind ( often warring minds) about some things.
There's even a possibility that 'Norgorber' is a team of rogues that took the test of the Starstone together!
It's always seemed to me that this kind of idea would be a good way to run a party of PCs through the test of the starstone.
Yep
Gm:"Grats, you have beaten the test of the star stone now you are a god"
Players: sweet we are Gods now!"
GM: "No, No you are a God now, just one god"
Players: ( confused) " So only one of us gets to be a god? Thats not fair!"
Gm: "No, you all get to be a god"
Players: ( Still confused) " But you said there was only one god"
Gm: " Exactly, you are all it"
Players " Huh"
I wouldn't wanna do that to my players, nor would I want that happening to me if I was a player. I do have one character who aims for godhood, and joining into the minds of other beings was not part of her plan. Cayden Cailean and Iomedae made it out fine alone, what should stop my character and the other players from doing so? XD
I wouldn't wanna do that to my players, nor would I want that happening to me if I was a player. I do have one character who aims for godhood, and joining into the minds of other beings was not part of her plan. Cayden Cailean and Iomedae made it out fine alone, what should stop my character and the other players from doing so? XD
Your doing it as a group not as a solo indivdual? just a thought
As only 4 people have ever done it, its safe to say you must be near demi-God level anyhow to pull it off.( And James has more or less hinted as much)
Cayden Cailean did it while drunk, and I have never seen these hints you speak of in his case. And as DM, I would still call bullcrap on that. The player characters are the most awesome thing to happen to the crapsack world of Golarion, so I think they SHOULD get a chance to become gods if they ever get far enough in the campaign.
Cayden Cailean did it while drunk, and I have never seen these hints you speak of in his case. And as DM, I would still call bullcrap on that. The player characters are the most awesome thing to happen to the crapsack world of Golarion, so I think they SHOULD get a chance to become gods if they ever get far enough in the campaign.
You know the fact the guy was drunk actually shows how bad ass he was not how easy the test is.
My point was that if a damned drunkard (albeit a badass one) could do it, so should the next world-changing heroes.
And hell, THEY should be able to do it while drunk as well for all I care!! XD
Just because you have yet to see something posted. Does not mean it was not said.
Nascent demigods (such as the nascent demon lords or perhaps really powerful mythic heroes) are CR 21 to CR 25. They can be killed by mortals, but it's a tough fight! This is likely the category that Iomedae, cayden, and Norgorber were in just BEFORE they took the Test of the Starstone.
That message leaves a bad taste in my mouth, just because it reminds me of the dreaded "Elminster syndrome" that some Forgotten Realms campaigns suffered from. "You player characters are insignificant because there are so many people in this world more awesome and more powerful than you (regardless of their alignment), and they can do your job better than you. But hey, while I'm busy curing the Worldwound, why don't you go on a fetch quest for me and get some exercise that way?"
Why bother playing when you might never DO anything to fix Golarion? Might as well just play a campaign where you actually have SOME impact on the story (you know, the story that the player characters are the MAIN CHARACTERS OF?) I am not saying you support that kind of NPC behaviour, but I am starting to get that kind of vibe by now.
Anyway, I repeat the first thing I was trying to make clear in the beginning of this mess: A group of four level 20 players should, in my opinion, be able to clear the Test of Starstone and become gods. Not one god, but each becoming a god in their own right if they survive. (Unless they are similar enough in ideals to somehow MAYBE fuse)
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Just remember, whether it is this situation or another, specific always trumps general. Specific setting rules either supplement or outright replace general non-setting rules. If the Inner Sea World Guide says one thing and the Core Book says another, then the Guide wins, so long as you are playing on Golarion and are going strictly by the book. The same is true when comparing D&D rules of any edition versus setting-specific rules for Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Greyhawk, etc.I think thats where the problem comes from is that there isn't an actual point that says they have to even James wasn't completly sure. And while some people will abide by him saying you have to have one others will argue that point till you want to use the core rulebook in a use that gives you a -4 penalty.
I suggest the The Tome of Horrors Complete: Unlimited Edition for this. It is even more massive than the CRB and, even if it is third party, it is liked and used by Paizo.
It would be a bit costly as a teaching instrument, but it is worth the expense.
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Anyway, I repeat the first thing I was trying to make clear in the beginning of this mess: A group of four level 20 players should, in my opinion, be able to clear the Test of Starstone and become gods. Not one god, but each becoming a god in their own right if they survive. (Unless they are similar enough in ideals to somehow MAYBE fuse)
To me the test of the Starstone is about as true to yourself and an idea you are, not only about your raw power.
So for 4 persons working together but with different goals and motivations it would be more difficult than for a single person.
Cayden succeeded while drunk because that is was he is, a drunkard. From my point of view he would have found it more difficult if he has entered it while sober and in all seriousness.
Okay, I get it's more about the character's ideals than anything else, BUT!! Does that mean they could be of lower level and still have an equal chance to succeed? Because my character who does aim to become a goddess doesn't care how she'll do it, as long as her soul and mind remain intact in the process so she can actually go along with her original plan of setting a few things right (thus staying true to her ideals). And I as a player don't care at what level she would need to go take the Test of Starstone, as long as she could succeed after a lot of hard adventures and journeying.
Okay, I get it's more about the character's ideals than anything else, BUT!! Does that mean they could be of lower level and still have an equal chance to succeed? Because my character who does aim to become a goddess doesn't care how she'll do it, as long as her soul and mind remain intact in the process so she can actually go along with her original plan of setting a few things right (thus staying true to her ideals). And I as a player don't care at what level she would need to go take the Test of Starstone, as long as she could succeed after a lot of hard adventures and journeying.
Icyshadow, I think you're missing a few of things.
FIRST, although it was also semi-serious, the whole thing about four players and one god was a bit of a joke - I doubt any conversation with any group of players would ever go like that.
Second, the argument is: [you] take [the test of the starstone] at one time. IF [you] pass [the test of the starstone], then [you] become [a god].
... Given that [the test of the starstone] (singular) is actually multiple trials (plural) in which:
a) the participant(s) is/are tested in their over-all power (level 21+)
b) the participant(s) is/are tested in their specific ideals (as expressed while taking the [test of the starstone])
c) the participant(s) is/are tested according to their specific capabilities (informing the final nature of their divinity/the final expression of their ideals as-divinity)
... Then [you] (singular) could easily consist of "you" (plural) as a group, taking the [test of the starstone] (singular) trials (plural) together, as "one" (singular), yielding a (singular) [god], which may (or may not) be fused.
In the end, the corporate "you" would probably become "a" deity of "working together" or "teamwork" or "versatility" or something else that incorporates multiple aspects into a single whole (possibly even "fusion" itself).
Think of it like Gozreh: Gozreh is always shown in two different aspects, one male (forest/wind) and one female (water). Why? Why is it never male (water) and female (forest/wind)? Possibly because Gozreh is, in fact, two entities who work together as one (corporate) [god]. Or look at Shimye-Migalla, a janniform deity known to be composed of both Desna (in her starry aspect) and Gozreh (in her watery aspect). That's clearly two gods, two different gods, but they are working together and, for reasons unknown, acting as one god. And Desna and Gozreh aren't even all that close... at all.
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And that's only for crime purposes. I'm sure a god would find it handy to be able to be in multiple places at once doing multiple things at once.
Basically being one god does not need to equate with fusing multiple people into one.
Trust me, as GM who's run campaigns (more than once!) that end with (multiple) character(s) either achieving divinity, fusing, both, or neither, I've put a LOT of thought into these kinds of things.
The most important part of the "one god" argument, is the idea that the starstone makes only one god each time the test is passed, and does so from the "you" (singular or corporate) that passes the test. If one or more characters take the test together, only one god results because only one test is taken. If each of the characters take the test individually, each is individually ascended.
IF you have a group who all desire to assist one person in passing the test, but don't wish to become deities themselves (a big if), the solution is relatively simple: the hopeful contestant finds a way to cross the great ravine around the outside of the cathedral without using a bridge. The others... all use the bridge. This act disqualifies them from godhood, but allows the petitioner to take (and possibly succeed at) the test.
THIRD, I think you're taking personally, as canon, and applying to your own character, what's only impersonal (but informed) speculation. Relax! :)
What is known is that the ascended deities were really powerful before they ascended. Cayden had a huge history of filled with half-completed tasks, drunkenness, and revelry before he entered the test: we was very well known (if not trustworthy), very experienced, terribly powerful, and fully capable. Iomedae was already a saint of the church of Aroden before she ascended and was known for her (I think?) eleven "miracles" before she ascended. Norgberger, we don't know - but it's safe to assume that as he somehow successfully crossed the pit surrounding the cathedral with no one noticing, took the test, and ascended all without anyone noticing he was pretty skilled. Finally, Aroden, the first guy to ever succeed with the Starstone (and did so either by or just before or just after raising it from the bottom of the ocean to/founding Absolom) was known to already be immortal, be a fantastically powerful mage (he ended a demon-lord infestation where the World Wound is now and personally ended the Age of Darkness), and to have twelve aspects (which, if I recall correctly, more or less fairly easily can correspond to the eleven core classes plus one, if you want) before ascension. Also, comparing these four to Irori and Nethys, both of whom ascended solely by merits of how awesome they are (although in Nethys' case, he was definitely "cursed with awesome"... so you can easily ascend without your "mind and soul intact"). These all suggest that you have to be fairly powerful initially in order to ascend. I'd also suggest that you can start the Test of the Starstone at any level you'd like, but the Test has a way of matching the needs/expectations/whatever of the the participant, and thus you couldn't pass without being 21+. :)
I'd suggest that you're looking at deities' levels incorrectly if you suggest there'd would be a lower-level way of ascending (one reason Razmir never did - he never got that high). I don't think that it's impossible in a game, I just don't think it's compatible with Golarion as a setting. Also, I'd be careful, if I were her, to temper my ambitions... "doesn't care how" is a dangerous, slippery slope, and, especially heading towards something as lofty as godhood, it can easily lead to a character's downfall, even if their original intent is good. After all "good intentions" and all that... ;)
Regardless, ascension is possible, it's just hard. Each person that took the test had their own reason for doing so - some want power, some wanted to do good and believed that was the best means, and at least one was raging drunk and took it on a bet. Whatever your character's motivations, good luck to her!
(Also, any more discussion of the Starstone test should probably be moved to its own thread, unless its related to "how does a cleric gain spells"?).
I might have represented my point incorrectly or then accidentally deviated from the original point I was trying to make. My apologies for that. Also, the part about Norgorber and his four aspects (they were named individually in some of the books) got me interested in their effects to a Cleric's chosen domains and beliefs.
And I admit to having underestimated Cayden's power pre-godhood, but yeah. I guess the level still needs to be +20 for my character if she wants to get her wish of becoming a god to become true via the Test of Starstone. And the ability to analyze risks despite being very ambitious is kind of a main theme for my character (so I should take back that "doesn't care how" part). She aims quite high, but she does her best not to be careless while doing so (being an elf helps with that). It's also why she's a necromancer (it's a powerful school of magic by canon) but avoids messing with undead, basically acting like the white necromancers who venerate Pharasma. She would also never trust a en evil outsider to help her find arcane secrets, since she hates Fiends of all kinds. The fact that she's a half-devil herself and her devil father killed her mother probably didn't help. (And suddenly I am starting to imagine her as a Chaotic Good Elf version of Wee Jas.)
Anyway, we should move back to the actual topic. The thing I mentioned about Nocturneburger is still making me think (since the clerics can be very different despite worshipping the same patron deity). Also, that fusion of Gozreh and Desna needs to be further elaborated upon if you ask me. How do they worship her (what are her clerics and/or druids like), does she grant spells and/or domains and if she does, which domains?
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Okay, doing some necromancy on this, but for a reason.
Everyone is whining about Eberron being the "no gods necessary" campaign, and of course the original Greyhawk gods were optional even for clerics by the core rules, so OMG terribad James Jacobs for making gods mandatory for clerics in Golarion when nobody else did that, right?
Oh but wait, you are all forgetting Ed Greenwood. Forgotten Realms had the same "clerics must have patron deity" rule in the Campaign Setting book. So, setting trumping core rules isn't a new thing.
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Okay, doing some necromancy on this, but for a reason.
Everyone is whining about Eberron being the "no gods necessary" campaign, and of course the original Greyhawk gods were optional even for clerics by the core rules, so OMG terribad James Jacobs for making gods mandatory for clerics in Golarion when nobody else did that, right?
Oh but wait, you are all forgetting Ed Greenwood. Forgotten Realms had the same "clerics must have patron deity" rule in the Campaign Setting book. So, setting trumping core rules isn't a new thing.
so is James' statement in this thread that if you want to do it in your campaign go for it.
In the official Golarion setting, every Cleric must have a God. But on your table, it's your game, and go hog wild with whatever works.
If anything, James' hard-and-fast rule in the setting is preferable to the creative chaos that's been seen in other settings - Eberron's non-aligned dragons becoming chromatically aligned in some of their fiction, etc.