Cohort advice requested

[Chakfor]

Party makeup (all level 9):

Conjuration Wizard - (me)Focusing on summoning and CC.

Oracle (Life) - Crazy healer and a great player, trying to tank a little.

Ranger (switch hitter) - Excellent ranged dps, trying to bump AC to tank a bit as well

Rogue/Fighter/Shadow Dancer - not very optimized but a crazy scout. Specializes in ranged combat options.

The campaign is at a point where we are able to branch off into multiple paths. The DM is allowing us to pick adventure "hotspots" one at a time to combat the forces of evil all over the world. Eventually this will build up into a climactic ending.

Dragons all over the world are awakening, once revered as gods they were forced into slumber by the last battle between good and evil. Now the cycle is beginning anew. We know of two dragons active in the world. Both are ancient wyrms, one is a bronze that's on our side and the other is a red that we know the lair location of (but haven't confronted because of obvious level disparity, also dragons aren't really meant to be fought in this campaign).

It's a great campaign really, and he's made it clear that we're being treated as powerful heroes instead of yet another set of adventurers that are out for fortune and glory.

I took Leadership at level 9 with the understanding that I'd get a small dragon as a cohort.I took leadership at 9 to get it out of the way, it was a dead feat level for me. I'm looking at obtaining the familiar at around level 11 or 12. Due to story I will be dropping my familiar in favor of the dragon. I'm also willing to give up a substantial boon from the king of the most powerful civilization in the land in order to obtain a reduction in the EL+8 formula.

The DM has proven himself more than willing to work with us in order to advance the story (which is one thing that makes the campaign so much fun) and is willing to give me the dragon cohort.

Please keep in mind that I don't want to have the cohort turn into a powerhouse, I'd simply like it to be beefy enough that it doesn't need to be coddled every combat. For story purposes a Young Brass would fit my character perfectly (as much as I'd love to have a large sized cohort for riding I'm willing to walk).

One of the other players in the group has indicated that the boon should be worth a -2 on the CR penalty and dropping my familiar would be worth another -2 to him if he were the DM. These numbers seem somewhat reasonable to me but I wanted to run them by everybody on the boards for opinions. Any other opinions would be welcome as well.

What do all of you think? Is my preferred cohort going to dominate the combat our party sees? How can I tone down the abilities to justify a medium sized (and admittedly fairly powerful) creature at level 11?

[VonGonda]

If you really think it has too much power ask the DM for a drawback.

• An exotic disease
• A damage limb
• Or other effect that cannot be fixed in a short amount of time.

Than as the PC get strong removed the effect in stages.

[Richard Leonhart]

how about a slightly retarded dragon that can't cast because his breath once damaged his brain when he was not yet completly immune to fire? He can only do a standard action per turn.

Perhaps you even get a large dragon for this :)

[Chakfor]

I considered offering to remove the SLA's the cohort has and dropping the Spell Focus (enchant) that the Young Brass has.

Also, I failed to mention in my previous post that our group, by large, has pretty high stats. The DM uses a generous system for rolling stats and several of us ended up with some very very nice scores.

Thanks for the replies! I certainly appreciate it. Keep 'em coming, any ideas are welcome.

[Ughbash]

Well Silver has the ability to turn into a human form.

Gold can make an interesting story...

The Last remaning (and most powerful) Gold dragon sacraficed himself in an effort to save the world. That is what caused all teh dragons slumber (perhaps an alchemical effect that he took and he had opened a lesser link to all dragons so while it killed him it put all the others to sleep).

Now his spirit has been reborn into a baby gold dragon, the only one in the world, and your party must hide its identity until it has grown enough to protect himself, and the world.

[Chakfor]

Ughbash wrote:

Well Silver has the ability to turn into a human form.

Gold can make an interesting story...

The Last remaining (and most powerful) Gold dragon sacrificed himself in an effort to save the world. That is what caused all the dragons slumber (perhaps an alchemical effect that he took and he had opened a lesser link to all dragons so while it killed him it put all the others to sleep).

Now his spirit has been reborn into a baby gold dragon, the only one in the world, and your party must hide its identity until it has grown enough to protect himself, and the world.

I'm not 100% sure that a silver or gold wouldn't be a bit overpowered. I feel I'm pushing it with the brass (and they're the weakest metallic).

Your suggestion about it being the last of its kind is one that another player brought up and while it is of course subject to DM overview I actually like the idea. It would give my character a reason to devote more resources to protecting the critter than he might otherwise do.

None of us really know the back story of the world. It's unfolding a piece at a time. We get a nifty email every time we complete an adventure arc that gives us a vague outline of what we're going to face on the next leg of the adventure (as players, the characters don't have any of the information in the email). So even as a player I have no clue why the dragons are finally waking up.

[Stallone]

I would say if it gets over powered then the GM should back it down or up the cr of the encounters to compensate.

[Chakfor]

Stallone wrote:

I would say if it gets over powered then the GM should back it down or up the cr of the encounters to compensate.

I'd prefer to avoid increasing encounter CR much. I have no desire to punish or endanger the party (by increasing the likelihood that we'd have a death or two) because I chose to take a feat.

I need to speak to my DM about it I think. Thankfully I've got a few weeks before the next session and we will have a few sessions between levels. That should give me a bit of time to prepare.

[Assiel]

Let me get this straight,

A Young Brass Dragon is a CR7 or an effective cohort level of 15 according to the monstrous cohorts table.

So I believe that means you have to be level 17 to get this cohort, assuming you have a high enough leadership score. (Still must follow the level restrictions for cohorts, that being PC level -2).

An Avoral is listed as an effective level of 15, lets compare.

HP: 94 (avoral) vs 76 (dragon)

AC: 25 (avoral) vs 21 (dragon)

Actually, it isn't even close when you compare them, the brass dragon is rocking a few non-combat 1st-level spells and only 4/day at that compared to the avoral's unlimited dimension door, hold person, blur, and lightning bolt 3/day.

Then we get into the avoral's lay on hands, many many different types of vision, better saves, better everything compared to the dragon.

It seems to me that they aren't even close to equal, so why is the effective level so high? CR + 8 seems a little extreme.

Now check out the Wyvern at an effective cohort level of 10. They have nearly identical stats. I admit, it has slightly more utility, and is technically 1 CR higher.

In the end, it seems perfectly balanced at an effective cohort level of 11, requiring the PC to be level 13. It is definitely not the RAW level 15 cohort.

If the DM has issues, sacrificing your familiar permanently and doing some RP to gain the service of this dragon sounds balanced at a cohort level 11 rating. Anything higher would be foolish, as you could simply just get a wyvern and be way better off.

[Chakfor]

Daehan wrote:

Let me get this straight,

A Young Brass Dragon is a CR7 or an effective cohort level of 15 according to the monstrous cohorts table.

So I believe that means you have to be level 17 to get this cohort, assuming you have a high enough leadership score. (Still must follow the level restrictions for cohorts, that being PC level -2).

An Avoral is listed as an effective level of 15, lets compare.

HP: 94 (avoral) vs 76 (dragon)

AC: 25 (avoral) vs 21 (dragon)

Actually, it isn't even close when you compare them, the brass dragon is rocking a few non-combat 1st-level spells and only 4/day at that compared to the avoral's unlimited dimension door, hold person, blur, and lightning bolt 3/day.

Then we get into the avoral's lay on hands, many many different types of vision, better saves, better everything compared to the dragon.

It seems to me that they aren't even close to equal, so why is the effective level so high? CR + 8 seems a little extreme.

Now check out the Wyvern at an effective cohort level of 10. They have nearly identical stats. I admit, it has slightly more utility, and is technically 1 CR higher.

In the end, it seems perfectly balanced at an effective cohort level of 11, requiring the PC to be level 13. It is definitely not the RAW level 15 cohort.

If the DM has issues, sacrificing your familiar permanently and doing some RP to gain the service of this dragon sounds balanced at a cohort level 11 rating. Anything higher would be foolish, as you could simply just get a wyvern and be way better off.

A Bralani Azata is also available as a EL11 Cohort and I'm positive it would wipe the floor with a young brass in a stand up fight as well.

The Dragon wins on HP (76 vs 66) and AC (21 vs 20) but doesn't have the offensive capability of the Azata and the bite and breath weapon are the only things the dragon has that can overcome the DR of the Bralani.

A quick breakdown:

Cure Serious Wounds 2/day
Fire/Cold Resist 10
DR 10/cold iron or Evil
Spell Resistance 17
Blur, Mirror Image, Wind Wall as at will abilities.

vs.

A few low level spells
a 6d4 breath weapon (or sleep breath)
immune to fire/sleep

Not sure why the dragons are overvalued so much or why the Bralani is so undervalued. In looking at it, that may be a better cohort overall with a few ranger levels tacked on. I could even RP out making the planar shift to Elysium to find one willing to help me.

Anybody else have suggestions or advice?