Firearms - Now 100% More Broken!


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overdark wrote:

Oh and one more thing, Gunslingers and guns are not 'optional' they are fully legal for Pathfinder Society Play.

By your reasoning Druids are optional, horses are optional, daggers are optional.

Thats just breaking out your rule 0 because you have no other tool in your debate repertoire.

Yes I know I can use rule 0, for anything I want to, but my point is I dont have to use it for Druids, and horses, and daggers, or anything in the Core book or the APG or UM,so I shouldn't have to do it for 1 particular piece of equipment from UC.

IF it had been balanced properly within the rules.

When we say that its an optional class we are saying that....A GM has ultimate control in their game so every class can be optional. In fact I am currently playing in a game where magic is limited so magical classes are not available to play.


overdark wrote:

Crafting a Katana 50 gp (500 sp)

1st level expert (human with basic NPC stats, Int 15), takes 10 on his craft check, gets a 16.

Takes him 2 weeks to make one Katana. (thats crap too, but ok)

With Skill Focus and masterwork tools he can get a 21 by taking 10, so then it still takes him 2 weeks to make one katana.

Same expert takes Gunsmithing for his feat. Turns out a revolver every 4 days.

Crying foul because I picked a katana, fine longsword then...
15 gp (150 sp)
16 check: 1 week
21 check: 1 week

Lets be a little more fair and compare them to the other ranged weapons in the Core book...
Light Crossbow 35 gp. 16 check: 2 weeks; 21 check: 2 weeks. For 1 crossbow

Heavy Crossbow 50 gp. 16 check: 3 weeks; 21 check: 2 weeks. For 1 crosssbow

Shortbow 30 gp. 16 check: 2 weeks; 21 check: 2 weeks. For 1 bow

Composite Shortbow 75 gp. 16 check: 4 weeks; 21 check: 3 weeks. For 1 bow

Longbow 75 gp. 16 check: 4 weeks; 21 check: 3 weeks. For 1 bow

Composite Longbow 100 gp. 16 check: 5 weeks; 21 check: 4 weeks. For 1 bow

Hand Crossbow* 100 gp. 16 check: 4 weeks; 21 check: 3 weeks. For 1 crossbow

Light Repeating Crossbow* 250 gp. 16 check: 9 weeks; 21 check: 7 weeks. For 1 crossbow

Heavy Repeating Crossbow* 400 gp. 16 check: 14 weeks; 21 check: 11 weeks. For 1 crossbow
* I used DC 18 to craft these exotic ranged weapons since there is no entry on the Craft chart and logically they should be somewhat more difficult to craft than a regular crossbow.

1 bowyer can turn out 13 longbows per year.
1 gunsmith can turn out 78 revolvers per year.

I know what your thinking higher level craftsmen will make items faster, true. But thats higher level experts, which are not as common as 1st level experts.
Lets look at a 16th level expert [Int 19, masterwork tools, skill focus] craft +31
Longbow: 41 check: 2 weeks. [1st level gunsmith still makes 3 guns]
41 times 12 = 492 sp of progress out of 750 sp.
or he could go ahead and take the +10 to the DC and then he gets it done in 1 week....

If you understood the different methods it takes to make a Katana vs a firearm you would understand why it takes much longer to craft a Katana than it does to craft a Firearm.

The earliest method of making barrels was by hand forging and then fire welding the length of barrel. This of course is just the barrel. The Stock and firing mechanism would be a bit more time consuming but not compared to a Katana.

The forging of a Katana blade required
Pound the tamahagane into two separate blades. These need to be heated, pounded by hand, and folded 1,000 times each to remove the impurities. Pound one of them another 1,000 times to make it harder than the other.

Curve the harder blade lengthwise into the shape of a "U," then insert the softer blade. Pound them together so that they make one blade. Sharpen the soft inner core to hold a razor edge and craft a point at the tip. The harder outer casing will give the katana strength.

Paint the katana blade with a layer of clay. Slather it on thick over the hard steel and place a thin layer over the soft steel sharpened part.

Fire the katana until it glows, then thrust it into a pool of cool water. As you do this, the blade will heat and cool at different rates because of the different layers of clay. This will cause the katana to curve backwards from the blade. Repeat this process dozens of times until it reaches the desired shape.

So as you can see the actual crafting time would be longer when forging a Katana vs an early Firearm.


No offense, Solkanis, but all of overdark's points have already been covered and refuted. There isn't much to be added and it's better to let the thread die than to try and go over everything all over again.


Googly eye!


Tobias wrote:
No offense, Solkanis, but all of overdark's points have already been covered and refuted. There isn't much to be added and it's better to let the thread die than to try and go over everything all over again.

I also feel that the fact that he hasn't posted here or even on the message board is a pretty good indication that people realized he had a blind, faceless crusade(for seemingly no reason) and were not going to listen to him.


Golden-Esque wrote:
Cibulan wrote:
Golden-Esque wrote:
Although guns have a lower base damage, the fact that they go against touch AC (you're not playing right if you're too far away for that to work) and possess the best BAB in game means that you can reliably count on ALL of your attacks hitting against everything; even if some do miss, the Gunslinger has tons of mechanics that activate on a missed shot (startling shot, grazing shot, etc).

Except they nerfed Startling Shot to stupidity. SS is now a separate standard action and grazing shot requires grit (if I remember correctly).

Archery is still king.

I didn't notice they nerfed Startling Shot; my Gunslinger player is going to be depressed, hahaha.

I don't think Archery is King, however. It's cheaper, but someone specializing in guns can do anything an archer can do if they spend enough gold, and they can all but completely count on all of their attacks hitting, which an archer cannot against a highly armored foe.

If you are makeing a zen archer or the deepwoods sniper from 3.5 converted, archers can get plenty scarry very fast with the right feats and DEX mods. I know someone playing a deepwoods sniper at 8th level and she is devastating in combat hitting well into the high 30's and 40's ACs. Add in her multiple shots and extreme ranges feats she is one of the most feared characters in the campaign.


Cost for 5 +1 Returning Brilliant Energy Arrows: 6,000 gp.

Usable almost literally forever. Never worry about having to run out, attack vs touch AC at 110', with more feat options and the ability to add another +10s worth of magical effects to your bow.

I dont care if the DC to craft guns is -5, its hard to outdo a bowman in Pathfinder.


Grey Mage wrote:

Cost for 5 +1 Returning Brilliant Energy Arrows: 6,000 gp.

Usable almost literally forever. Never worry about having to run out, attack vs touch AC at 110', with more feat options and the ability to add another +10s worth of magical effects to your bow.

Sorry, but that isn't going to work for two reasons.

First, under the section on magic items:

Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage.

Second, the first sentence of the description of the Returning special ability states: "This ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown."

Arrows aren't throwing weapons, since they lack ranges in and of themselves (requiring bows to be used). Even if they were able to be thrown, they are destroyed the moment they deal their damage.

Adding Returning to an arrow just wastes the gold.


Tobias wrote:
Grey Mage wrote:

Cost for 5 +1 Returning Brilliant Energy Arrows: 6,000 gp.

Usable almost literally forever. Never worry about having to run out, attack vs touch AC at 110', with more feat options and the ability to add another +10s worth of magical effects to your bow.

Sorry, but that isn't going to work for two reasons.

First, under the section on magic items:

Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage.

Second, the first sentence of the description of the Returning special ability states: "This ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown."

Arrows aren't throwing weapons, since they lack ranges in and of themselves (requiring bows to be used). Even if they were able to be thrown, they are destroyed the moment they deal their damage.

Adding Returning to an arrow just wastes the gold.

I'm sorry but i get this image of a very depressed archer sitting there holding a snapped in half arrow that just teleported back to him.

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