Most of the time a ninja is depicted in modern media it's one of these two:
a) an unarmed combat machine
b) swinging a single katana
Now, a) can possibly be achieved with the two unarmed ninja tricks, and TWF feats, but I'm more interested in the second one.
I'm not trying to super-optimize, but using a single katana seems so stupid for a ninja, compared to wielding two weapons like two Wakizashi for example.
1) most (or alot) of a ninja's damage comes from sneak attack. So more single hits are better than a few more powerful ones.
2) Katana's can't be finessed, so you need high strength, which obviously helps your damage too, but your skills and AC suffer, since you won't really have alot of Dex.
The one thing I can find that works in favor of using a single weapon is:
3) In addition to have a much higher str modifier to start with you also get it 1.5x because you wield your katana twohanded, and the power attack bonus gets +50% too.
3a) The power attack part doesn't really count though since when you power-attack with two weapons you get the same bonus, on your off-hand. (or Piranha Strike)
As I said, I don't want to over-optimize, and I'm willing to take some disadvantages if it is within the flavor of the class and all. But I don't want to completely cripple myself either.
At level 15, when I can take Greater TWF, my sneak attack is +8d6. Also you have 3 attacks more with my 1d6 offhand-weapon, so it's 3 times 9d6.
So I lose a potential 27d6 or 94 average damage per round, if I only use a single weapon
Now assuming by that time I got, I don't know, 30 strength (never actually played that level, so not sure what a normal str for a str focused character is), thats a modifier of +10, so each hit does +15 str damage (compared to a 10 str TWF ninja), totalling for a +45. That's still 49 points difference.
(even at 40 str it's +66 only)
Yes, I was assuming I hit with all my attacks, but if the chance to miss should be relatively the same on both builds, so it should change the overall picture too much. Also I was ignoring mainhand damage and mainhand-sneak attack, since both builds get that and its pretty much the same.
Am I missing anything that would make 2hd fighting better?
Student: Sensai, I must object, that giant orc with the two handed battle axe looks NOTHING like a proper ninja!
Sensai: Exactly my son, exaaaaactly....
In modern times they're depicted with a ninja to which is a short strait blade. Its either a short-sword, or a rapier with the serial numbers filed off.
As I said, I don't want to over-optimize, and I'm willing to take some disadvantages if it is within the flavor of the class and all. But I don't want to completely cripple myself either.
- On paper, two weapon fighting looks like it does an insane amount of damage. In practice I've found that its very hard to get off a sneak attack full attack. You basically need to spend one turn moving, attack with a sneak attack, HOPE they don't move, and attack again. Otherwise you move into position, wait, and sneak attack with two weapons... which is 2 attacks in two rounds but with a lower chance to hit.
You could take proficiency in the elven curve blade and call it a katana. 1d10 2 hander damage with a good crit is nice, and it has the mechanics to back up the "my foreign sword is better than your European slag" flavor of the katana.
Thanks for the answers both of you. You both make some good points, I had totally forgotten that I save a whole bunch of feats with a single weapon. It's probably 4 feats actually, since I don't need weapon finesse either.
And I guess you're right that full-attacking can't be guaranteed and then I guess the 2hd is better as well.
But if someone else has more reasons why either of them is better than the other, keep them coming :)
Actually a ninja will be able to sneak attack more than a rogue at least at higher level. If you take the invisible blade trick you will probably be getting sneak attacks when it really counts.
In modern times they're depicted with a ninja to which is a short strait blade. Its either a short-sword, or a rapier with the serial numbers filed off.
Just wanted to say something to that. According to wikipedia(yeah I know, it's not all-knowing, but it does a pretty good job most of the time):
Although shorter swords and daggers were used, the katana was probably the ninja's weapon of choice, [...] While straight swords were used before the invention of the katana,[86] the straight ninjatō has no historical precedent and is likely a modern invention.
Actually a ninja will be able to sneak attack more than a rogue at least at higher level. If you take the invisible blade trick you will probably be getting sneak attacks when it really counts.
Hmm, I thought I had mentioned invisible blade in the OP, but seems i deleted that sentence again.
Yeah sneak attack is not so much the problem, but getting a full attack is.If you only get a standard attack, because you have to move or something, then a 2hd weapon is better than a single mainhand attack.
Although shorter swords and daggers were used, the katana was probably the ninja's weapon of choice, [...] While straight swords were used before the invention of the katana,[86] the straight ninjatō has no historical precedent and is likely a modern invention.
pfffth. If i wanted realism i wouldnt want a ninja who can cast invisibility :)
I did say depicted, as in thats how they are in movies. I didn't make any claims to real life because, lets face it, this is a fantasy game. how they look in your head is more important than how they looked in reality.
pfffth. If i wanted realism i wouldnt want a ninja who can cast invisibility :)
I did say depicted, as in thats how they are in movies. I didn't make any claims to real life because, lets face it, this is a fantasy game. how they look in your head is more important than how they looked in reality.
True, you said that :) And I think I also said depicted in the first post, so yeah, I was probably wrong. Strange enough when I imagine a ninja in my head they wield a long curved katana, not a short straight blade. Maybe has to do with those Michael Dudikoff movies from the eighties wich i loved when i was younger :) I think he always had a katana.
funny i am actually thinking about this myself past few days, leaning towards THW because TWF is to damn feat intensive, but i still want to go to the finesse route for AC and flavor(so annoyed the katana isn't finesseable).
so 1st level feat: weapon finesse
3rd level feat: EWP ECB
????
Half elf and ancestrial weapon
Human and take EWP at 1st levelHeirloom weapon trait - ok that one is a joke post-nerf
The problem with finessed 2hd is that you lose the advantage of getting 1.5x strength bonus.
But yes, you get the bonus AC and skills instead. Guess you have to decide for yourself if its worth it. If you wear armor however, then Dex stops being useful for it after a while, so it will probably only be a 3 or 4 point difference in AC.
(yes bracers of armor might get you around that limit, but they're more expensive too)
Real ninjas have strait swords!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Qq5hABg0VOY/SjjmDvMsrWI/AAAAAAAABwE/1TKZbnWsteM/s 1600-h/american_ninja.jpg
obvious who the real ninja is!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-v0B6ULbbnuY/Tc62q5oRFWI/AAAAAAAAAiA/LHpufxMlmZQ/s 1600/ninja+iii+poster+01+blog.jpg
and of course...
http://www.wildaboutmovies.com/images_2/TeenageMutantNinjaTurtlesMoviePoste r_000.jpg
anyone know how to put them into nice neat links?
|
Half elf and ancestrial weapon
Human and take EWP at 1st level
Heirloom weapon trait - ok that one is a joke post-nerfThe problem with finessed 2hd is that you lose the advantage of getting 1.5x strength bonus.
But yes, you get the bonus AC and skills instead. Guess you have to decide for yourself if its worth it. If you wear armor however, then Dex stops being useful for it after a while, so it will probably only be a 3 or 4 point difference in AC.
(yes bracers of armor might get you around that limit, but they're more expensive too)
whoa whoa whoa, steady up there, you're going a little to much into optimization there, i don't want a generic ninja, phht that's boring.
also human ninja can't take EWP at first level you need +1 bab, if i were to go a TWF ninja i'd have to consider going human so that i can get finesse and TWF right off the bat
anyway i'm not to interested with going the power attack route as i feel that the bulk of the ninja's damage is going to come from sneak attacks and lowering my chance to hit, nope, not happening
anyone know how to put them into nice neat links?
[ url = "www.google.com" ]google[ / url ]
just don't use the excessive spaces i used
|
I am a THF junky myself. High strength big hits without worrying about trying for that full attack - I love it.
But then again, I like the best of both worlds. So I start with:
Str: 18
Dex: 15 (shockingly low!!)
Con: 12
Int: 7 (yeah, crazy, only 6 skills per lvl plus being Human!)
Wis: 10
Cha: 14
Feats:
1)TWF, Double Slice
3)Quick Draw
So, I run around hitting things hard with my Katana, but omg! can you believe it? I am flanking and can get a full attack off this round! Quick draw second blade, use Katana in one hand, stabby stab and enjoy.
Obviously you can change stats to decrease Str to get more Int if you need more skills or to improve Dex.
Of course, an advantage of not going TWF at all is you have plenty of spare feats to get extra Ki points. You could also keep Cha at 10 assuming you don't plan on using many tricks that have saving throws.
For traits you could take Armour Expert, that means eventually you can wear Mithral Breastplate without proficiency and suffer no penalties.
You can also wear a Masterwork chainshirt without any skill check penalties
Ooo nice trait.
I also favor 2HW ninja. Though, I do think that having a light offhand weapon is nice. Though with Quickdraw and the Rogue Talent (underhanded) you can start a combat with an awesome MAX damage sneak attack.
For my build (Str16, Dex14, Con12, Int8, Wis10, Cha16) I took:
1 Blind fight, combat reflexes
2 Combat trick (quickdraw)
3 Shadow strike
4 Sudden disguise, +1 to Str
5 Power attack
6 Vanishing trick
7 Furious focus
8 Rogue talent (underhanded), +1 to Str
9 Vital strike
10 Assassination
Blind-fight and shadow strike are based on the reasoning that a ninja is most at home when they are in the dark. Even at night, with moonlight, its likely that you are dealing with Dim Light conditions with patches of Total Darkness. Ninja should be reasonably capable of dealing sneak attacks in these conditions.
Vanishing Trick comes late in the build for purely aesthetic reasons. I thought disguising ones self with a swift action might be a stepping stone to just flat out disappearing.
As for the rest, its all predicated on getting that first round of combat off with a bang. Consider a traveling monk saddles up to a rich noble. He gives him a blessing of heaven's forgiveness before suddenly pulling a wakazashi from his staff and gutting the lord. Its an assassination attempt, but if the Lord survives, he still has to deal with a Vital strike with hidden weapon benefiting from PA, Furious Focus, Vital Strike, and Max sneak attack damage (2d6+36 damage at highest attack bonus, not counting magic bonuses).
Now granted, underhanded and 2HW does not synergize well at all, but when not in the surprise round, the ninja can still shift to using his main weapon, and gain better damage from power attack/furious focus. If he vanishes, he can use vital strike when not with a flanking partner, to get the most out of the one sneak attack he is going to get, vanish again and move.
|
From a optimized stand point. Making the highest damage two weapon fighting rogue you can. Starts with 6 levels of Ranger. To by pass Dex and alow you to focus on Str. Starting with a Dex of 15 is all you need. This will let you take Double Slice and Improved Two Weapon Fighting as your ranger combat style feats. Along with the ability to focus on Str. Power Attack and Parana Strike are never a good option for a rogue character. Lowering there to hit is just not a very good option.
Just using level 12 as a example. Mainly becous thats where PFS ends.
Ranger 6 BAB 6 Fort 5 Ref 5 Will 2 (2 Combat Style Feats, 2 Favord Enemys, 36 Skill Points)
Rogue 6 BAB 4 Fort 2 Ref 5 Will 2 (3D6 Sneak Attack, 3 Rogue Talents, Evasion, Trap Sense +2, Uncanny Dodge, 48 Skill Points)
Total 12 BAB 10 Fort 7 Ref 10 Will 4 (84 Skill Points)
With a 20 point buy.
Human (Point Cost)
Str 18 (10)
Dex 15 (7)
Con 14 (5)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 10 (0)
Cha 8 (-2)
Or
Str 18 (10)
Dex 15 (7)
Con 12 (2)
Int 14 (5)
Wis 10 (0)
Cha 7 (-4)
I also favor 2HW ninja. Though, I do think that having a light offhand weapon is nice. Though with Quickdraw and the Rogue Talent (underhanded) you can start a combat with an awesome MAX damage sneak attack.
There is just a slight problem with that idea: As long as you don't have Two Weapong Fighting feat, you take serious penalties on all your attacks. So much infact that I'd say it's absolutely not worth it.
Unless I somehow misunderstand your intent here.From a optimized stand point. Making the highest damage two weapon fighting rogue you can. Starts with 6 levels of Ranger. To by pass Dex and alow you to focus on Str. Starting with a Dex of 15 is all you need. This will let you take Double Slice and Improved Two Weapon Fighting as your ranger combat style feats. Along with the ability to focus on Str. Power Attack and Parana Strike are never a good option for a rogue character. Lowering there to hit is just not a very good option.
Ranger does have some nice options, I give you that. But if you start with 15 dex so you can get TWF, by level 8 (when you can get Imp TWF as a rogue), you should have more than enough money for a +2 Dex belt, so by then you can use that feat too. +4 dex belt at level 15 is also not a real problem I think.
However, I'm really not sure I agree with your opinion on Power Attack. Oh, sure it's not a good option against someone with AC through the roof and 3 levels higher than you. But against mooks, or not too overpowered BBEGs?
|
|
andRanger does have some nice options, I give you that. But if you start with 15 dex so you can get TWF, by level 8 (when you can get Imp TWF as a rogue), you should have more than enough money for a +2 Dex belt, so by then you can use that feat too. +4 dex belt at level 15 is also not a real problem I think.
What you miss is you never take your Dex above 15. All your level up points go in to Str. The only reason for taking Dex 15. So you can start level 1 with two weapon fighting. So your 2nd level ranger combat style feat can be double slice. Your level 6 Ranger combat style feat is improved two weapon fighting bypassing the Dex. Level 8 you pick up your 2nd ability point. Base Str 20 + 2 item = Str 22 +6 mod.
I also favor 2HW ninja. Though, I do think that having a light offhand weapon is nice. Though with Quickdraw and the Rogue Talent (underhanded) you can start a combat with an awesome MAX damage sneak attack.There is just a slight problem with that idea: As long as you don't have Two Weapong Fighting feat, you take serious penalties on all your attacks. So much infact that I'd say it's absolutely not worth it.
Unless I somehow misunderstand your intent here.
Ah, allow me to rephrase, light backup weapon, hidden on you person for when big weapons are not allowed. Underhanded is just a great way to start a fight. Once the light weapon is drawn it can be dropped in favor of the big one. Mind you that Shuriken can count as concealed weapons as well.
Ah, allow me to rephrase, light backup weapon, hidden on you person for when big weapons are not allowed. Underhanded is just a great way to start a fight. Once the light weapon is drawn it can be dropped in favor of the big one. Mind you that Shuriken can count as concealed weapons as well.
Oh yes, absolutely. I usually carry a dagger or so as backup on any char, you never know.