Hey guys,
Basically, I was wondering if anyone had any advice on how to merge the two together.
As such, I thought rather than just having everyone as adventurers who can never do anything more than solve mysteries and fight things, I'd quite like to be able to find ways to make the PC's into town officials, and maybe even get them running the town itself.
I know Kingmaker did this, but due to not playing it myself, I know very little about it. I just felt that such a system could work.
Thanks in advance. :)
Kingmaker's system works better, I think, with founding your own "holding" (at least as far as PCs are concerned). Jon Brazer Enterprises has taken the Kingdom rules and made them into a stand-alone product, so you can purchase that without worrying about buying up the whole Kingmaker AP.
Hook Mountain Massacre actually has a set of rules for the PCs that may tie in as well.
Alternatively, if you have the Faction Guide (or even the Pathfinder Society Field Guide), you could treat Sandpoint's government as a Faction and let the PCs earn Fame and Prestige with the people. You could then allow the PCs to spend Prestige on noble titles within Sandpoint, or to buy farms or businesses in the area.
Ah, my friend has the Kingmaker campaign, so I'm going to go around his in a bit to have a look at how it works for that, and hopefully I can then adjust things accordingly.
I had a quick look through Hook Mountain Massacre but didn't have much luck finding anything, so will have to have a proper look later.
Thanks a lot for the advice. If it becomes too much of a headache to make it work, I'll just forget about it, but hopefully it'll work out well.
I do like your faction idea. ;)
Kingdom building comes into play should the PCs take control and run Fort Rannick. If I were you, I'd check out Greycloak's mashup campaign posts here in this subforum and see what he is planning.
Kingdom building comes into play should the PCs take control and run Fort Rannick. If I were you, I'd check out Greycloak's mashup campaign posts here in this subforum and see what he is planning.
I was reading what he had been running so far and it seemed really interesting, so if it's much better to Kingdom Build with Fort Rannick instead of Sandpoint itself, I guess I'll do that.
I've only read the first book properly so far, as I need to familiarise myself with that the most right now. I'll have to start reading the second book when the party reach about a third of the way through the first book.
Thanks. :)
If you are not to familiar with the entirety of the adventure path you may come to realize that kingdom expansion will be pretty low on the list of priorities for the pc's. When faced with tribes of stone giant's ready for war, and the realization that an ancient wizard hellbent on reclaiming his lost kingdom is on the rise and they are the only ones capable of stopping him (and 6 others) from rising and recapturing the inner sea they might have bigger things to be worrying about. Another problem you are going to run into is that the rules use din Kingmaker are for making a kingdom, containing several cities and spanning several acres. Varisia is not like the unclaimed Stolen Lands(the setting for kingmaker)it is a recognized kingdom and im pretty sure there will be some very unhappy people if you start attempting to absorb their land. But if you decide to implement this mechanic I highly recommend that you use the city building rules instead of kingdom building rules, and most definitely implement them once the PC's gain control of the fort in Hook Mountain Massacre.
Warning, spoilers for RotRL ahead.
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Notwithstanding that Greycloak is making this work--and work very well--for his (I am making an assumption that 'his' is correct!) players, on balance I'd advise against incorporating kingdom-building or city-building into the AP. Primarily because, as Loren said above, the AP is not focused in that direction.
The Adventure Path as written relies heavily on the PCs coming to love Sandpoint as their home, and if they're given another home at Fort Rannick they may react poorly when the giants attack Sandpoint at the beginning of Book 4, and not be terribly excited about running back there to protect the place.
Of course, you may decide to take the AP in a totally different direction, but it won't end up being the same as the adventure written on the page.
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All that being said, if you want to include a kingdom-building type experience in your game, there's no reason you can't do it without any rules: involve more politicians, more nobles, more skullduggery, more rival adventuring parties, and make the people of Sandpoint look up to them. It's how I plan to involve the heroes in the basic lives of Sandpoint's citizens, and prevent them from getting too high and mighty to go back to town and look after the people who like them.
I would actually strongly advise keeping the PCs in Sandpoint as much as possible; as it is, they travel around a lot as written:
- Book 1: Sandpoint
- Book 2: Sandpoint --> Magnimar
- Book 3: Magnimar --> Turtleback Ferry --> Skull's Crossing --> Fort Rannick
- Book 4: Fort Rannick --> Sandpoint (for a single encounter) --> Jorgenfist
- Book 5: Jorgenfist --> Runeforge
- Book 6: Runeforge --> Xin Shalast
(I am wilfully ignoring potential sojourns in Sandpoint; this is where the AP events take the PCs. Also, this is from memory so I may be missing the occasional short trip.)
The travel already in the AP takes the PCs away from Sandpoint quite enough for my tastes. I plan on putting my PCs on the Medium track and developing plenty of other enemies for the PCs, including overzealous Magnimaran trade officials who are irritated at Sandpoint's growing prosperity whilst not contributing to Magnimar's tax revenues, Hellknights who think Sandpoint has strayed too far from a Lawful alignment (even the Lawful Good inhabitants of Sandpoint feel to me like they value Good more than Law), Korvosan agents who are laying the groundwork for the events of Curse of the Crimson Throne, the occasional advance scout for the Frozen Shadows who will foreshadow (heh) the events of Jade Regent, and just plain old bandits and standover men. Not to mention the Scarnetti clan.
Loren and cynarion: Wow, that's quite a lot of stuff to include tbh. Maybe they'll just be happy with how it is already and to give them more of a reason to visit Sandpoint I could forget about Kingdom and City building altogether and instead focus on making them officials or some kind of protectors of the place.
My problem is there's going to be a Titan Mauler Barbarian of the Shoanti Wind Tribe there, and his motives are to take back Varisia from the Chelaxians.....so I really don't know if he'll even care about the town of Sandpoint. Hopefully he'll develop a good enough relationship with SBH to make him care and change his ways.
We shall see I guess.
Would you guys suggest reading all of the books first, or do I only need to include the contents of book 1 for the first part of the campaign path? I haven't run an adventure path before so don't know if I need to read all of them first in order to make things more prominent early on that are only mentioned in the later books.
Like are there characters from the later books I should include early on in the story etc?
The way I read it was that they tell you enough about the characters a book in advance so that you can make their presence a much bigger impact later on by having them as recurring characters.
Such as including A in book 1 with his hunt, then shocking the players in book two with who he actually is.
Loren and cynarion: Wow, that's quite a lot of stuff to include tbh. Maybe they'll just be happy with how it is already and to give them more of a reason to visit Sandpoint I could forget about Kingdom and City building altogether and instead focus on making them officials or some kind of protectors of the place.
My problem is there's going to be a Titan Mauler Barbarian of the Shoanti Wind Tribe there, and his motives are to take back Varisia from the Chelaxians.....so I really don't know if he'll even care about the town of Sandpoint. Hopefully he'll develop a good enough relationship with SBH to make him care and change his ways.
We shall see I guess.
Would you guys suggest reading all of the books first, or do I only need to include the contents of book 1 for the first part of the campaign path? I haven't run an adventure path before so don't know if I need to read all of them first in order to make things more prominent early on that are only mentioned in the later books.
Like are there characters from the later books I should include early on in the story etc?
The way I read it was that they tell you enough about the characters a book in advance so that you can make their presence a much bigger impact later on by having them as recurring characters.
Such as including A in book 1 with his hunt, then shocking the players in book two with who he actually is.
You should at least read the brief descriptions in the back of burnt offerings. As far as characters go. Aldern is incredibly important but you do not want to use him as it will draw suspicion to him, Shalelu on the other hand is very important and can even aide the character when necessary. As far as your Titan mauler goes, subtly influence him into believe that in order to take varisia from the chelaxians he will first need to stop the runelord, when appropriate of course.
Also in part two "the skinsaw murders" Hemlock deputizes them.
Oh, all of them?
I hope my Barbarian player doesn't read this, as he came across the thread earlier which is why I've been hiding everyone's names with just letters. :p
I read the extracts for the other campaign parts at the end of Burnt Offering's, but instead of getting S in when the story says, should I keep having her mentioned throughout the first book?
Oh, all of them?
I hope my Barbarian player doesn't read this, as he came across the thread earlier which is why I've been hiding everyone's names with just letters. :p
I read the extracts for the other campaign parts at the end of Burnt Offering's, but instead of getting S in when the story says, should I keep having her mentioned throughout the first book?
No, its a good idea to implement her in part 1 like it says. She can be a romantic interest or just a friend, possibly serving as a cohort for a pc that takes the leadership feat.
Ah, I planned to do that anyway, but have never played with anyone who used the Leadership feat. It'd be interesting if they do choose it, but I think I'll just randomly put her in key places for the characters to meet her, and maybe stat her out as a capable helper.
That way she can freely join and help the party and go off to do her own thing. The characters may grow more attached to her that way.
Thanks. :)
...to give them more of a reason to visit Sandpoint I could forget about Kingdom and City building altogether and instead focus on making them officials or some kind of protectors of the place.
Liane Merciel has a great solution to one version of this problem in her campaign--early in the AP she pretty much incapacitated everyone of consequence in Sandpoint, leaving the PCs as the only law enforcement in the town. That meant they had to play the role of protector (or hand in their credentials as Real Adventurers(TM) for being cowardly).
My problem is there's going to be a Titan Mauler Barbarian of the Shoanti Wind Tribe there, and his motives are to take back Varisia from the Chelaxians.....so I really don't know if he'll even care about the town of Sandpoint. Hopefully he'll develop a good enough relationship with SBH to make him care and change his ways.
I always feel it's really dangerous to have a PC with those kinds of motivations. The idea that a single person (or even a group of people like an adventuring party) could change the direction of an entire nation is...well...kind of absurd in my mind. Which is my personal preference, and if having individuals change the course of national politics works for your group then go right ahead! My gaming group tends to prefer A Game of Thrones (or better, House of Cards) to Conan the Barbarian when it comes to the political machinations in our games. ; )
I think in this case however that the player's goals are doubly dangerous--as written, Varisia is largely ignored by Cheliax (they have enough going on within their own borders and have Molthune and Andoran to deal with on their doorstep), and the ethnic Chelaxians in Varisia are far more cosmopolitan than their diabolist cousins down south. The Varisians and Shoanti have definitely had their lands taken from them, but while I do recall some mention of the Shoanti 'massing for war' or some such (possibly in the Player's Guide?), I think that notion is a destabilising influence on the campaign as a whole, and if I were planning on GMing RotRL as written I would totally ignore it.
To be specific, I foresee two potential problems:
- The player might wind up making his PC belligerent toward all Chelaxians--which covers 90+% of Sandpoint's citizens, the majority of whom are all really nice people.
- If the PC really wants to do something about Cheliax's hold on Varisia, he's going to have to go to Korvosa, which is in reality the last remaining bastion of Chelish culture in Varisia. Korvosa is so far off-plan that a trip there would pretty much derail the entire adventure, unless it occurs at very high levels when the PCs can reliably teleport around the place.
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Now, all of that aside, the Chelaxians in Sandpoint are really sympathetic people. In addition, Sandpoint has a standing agreement with the Varisian Council to pay them a chunk of the town's profits. If that's not being culturally inclusive, I don't know what is. Provided the player/PC can be made to understand that, you may be able to turn his motivations into a benefit to the AP as the PC strives to protect the place where things are being done right--and use that example as an attempt to spread that cultural inclusiveness through the rest of Varisia. After all, the Chelish invasion was 200 years ago. Korvosa was settled largely by force, but Magnimar was settled by explorers from Korvosa (much more peaceful) and Riddleport was settled by disaffected Magnimarans under Sir Roderic. Neither of them are terribly culturally Chelish, they're much more a mixing pot of cultures that are now unidentifiable as any of their original components.
Would you guys suggest reading all of the books first, or do I only need to include the contents of book 1 for the first part of the campaign path? I haven't run an adventure path before so don't know if I need to read all of them first in order to make things more prominent early on that are only mentioned in the later books.
I haven't run an AP before either, but I'd heartily recommend reading all the books first, if you have time. It's not necessary, but if you're anything like me, just knowing what's going to happen next will allow your subconscious mind to make connections that it otherwise couldn't. Another resource that's been useful to me are the sessions on YouTube from Houston Pathfinder. The reactions the players have to some of the events has given me great pointers on the things I need to be careful about because they can be misinterpreted. Specifically, if I'm going to pull of the stuff in Book 2, I have to be very careful of how I present certain characters in Book 1. In the Houston Pathfinder sessions, the character came off as an idiot. Therefore no emotional impact.
Hope that helps!
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CC,
like the others said, this is a travelling, meet the whole of Varisia kind of campaign and what you are describing would create headaches after Book 2 when the action shifts far far away from your PCs' base before they get teleport etc.
If I were dead-set on implementing your idea from the start, I would probably relocate the town of Sandpoint in its entirety to the location of Turtleback Ferry. Then all the Sandpoint stuff happens up there, you have one trip away to Magnimar (which I would move to be a bit closer - maybe where Ilsurian is). This would give you support up to the beginning of Book 4 and would naturally help with the transition from town officials or whatever to barons/baronesses at the end of Book 3.
Book 4 then becomes a response to an attack on their realm and the rest goes from there (and gets easier once the PCs get the big travelling spells).
If you are happy with waiting until last third of book 3, the PCs do become town officials of a sort in Ft. Rannick so it could easily work from there. That's kinda what I am doing with a ton of Kingmaker interludes (an intro to hexploration) and side-treks along the way. That story and my thoughts in detail are posted in my discussion thread in this forum.
Ah, thanks a lot Greycloak.
I'm perfectly fine with waiting until near the end of book 3 and moving a town seems way too much effort, making the surrounding Sandpoint map pointless. :p
I think I'll just go by the books for this and if I get a chance later on, I might include the idea. Otherwise I have a fairly good amount of stuff to go on. :)
Thanks guys!
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Ah, thanks a lot Greycloak.
I'm perfectly fine with waiting until near the end of book 3 and moving a town seems way too much effort, making the surrounding Sandpoint map pointless. :p
I think I'll just go by the books for this and if I get a chance later on, I might include the idea. Otherwise I have a fairly good amount of stuff to go on. :)
Thanks guys!
If you are thinking of adding KM material (hexploration etc.) after book 3, I have maps ready. Just email me at the address in my profile and I can send you something in a format that works for you.