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Can I get a simple explanation of what a Titan Mauler can do from the Developers?
I have seen different inturpretations of how the Titan Maulers Jotungrip works, does the Titan Mauler gain the ability to use weapons bigger than anyone else can?
I just would like a explanation rather than an inturpretation of the archetype.
Not sure if there's much room for intepretation.
It says you can wield two handed weapons in one hand at -2.
You could therefor use two medium-sized greatswords or greataxes, one in each hand, each taking a -2 on attacks, and not getting the +50% str-to-dmg increase.
A large one handed weapon is a two handed weapon for a medium creature, so you could use two large longswords, but why would you?
Not sure if there's much room for intepretation.
It says you can wield two handed weapons in one hand at -2.You could therefor use two medium-sized greatswords or greataxes, one in each hand, each taking a -2 on attacks, and not getting the +50% str-to-dmg increase.
A large one handed weapon is a two handed weapon for a medium creature, so you could use two large longswords, but why would you?
You can't use two large longswords, unless 'appropriately sized' means something other then most people think it means. A large weapon isn't 'appropriately sized' is what most people are taking it to mean.
I also think that a clarification (most likely in the form of FAQ or errata) is needed for this archetype.
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack,Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
It is pretty clear. You get to use a handed weapon in one hand that is the appropriate size.
What is appropriate size? That is a weapon that would not cause you to take the -2 penalty if weilded into two hands because it was made for a larger sized creature.
Where is my source for incorrectly(not appropriate) sized weapons?
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
As you can see a large longsword is not the appropriate size and therefore can not be use with this ability since one of the requirements are that it be the appropriate size.
Missed that line SOMEHOW. Bit of a derp moment.
Then yes, it don't need any more interpretation, you can dual wield 2handed weapons of your size, the end.
(Fury warrior anyone?) :D
Missed that line SOMEHOW. Bit of a derp moment.
Then yes, it don't need any more interpretation, you can dual wield 2handed weapons of your size, the end.(Fury warrior anyone?) :D
Don't forget you also have the choice of using a Large two-handed weapon with two hands (sort of like a Final Fantasy character) without as much of a penalty with Massive Weapons (Ex).
Doesn't really affect Jotungrip since the weapons are still technically not sized for you, but it fits the theme and allows for two different options.
Not seeing the whole archetype, I don't see what the point here is.
Not seeing the whole archetype, I don't see what the point here is.
Far as I got it, the Op was wondering if Jotungrip(ex) lets the barbarian use bigger weapons. Which it doesn't, it lets you dual wield two-handed weapons sized to you.
Massive Weapon on the other hand let's you use bigger weapons at lower/no penalty, letting him use Huge Weapons with no penalties at lvl 12, or at -1 between 9th-12th lvl.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, dual wielding these without house ruled TWF would be a disaster, since both weapons would have a combined -6 on each attack for not having a light offhand.
I think actually Massive weapons does the job better, as you could just grab two large longswords with no penalties, later using huge ones instead.
All things considered, I think Massive weapons makes Jotungrip redunant.
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Missed that line SOMEHOW. Bit of a derp moment.
Then yes, it don't need any more interpretation, you can dual wield 2handed weapons of your size, the end.(Fury warrior anyone?) :D
Don't forget you also have the choice of using a Large two-handed weapon with two hands (sort of like a Final Fantasy character) without as much of a penalty with Massive Weapons (Ex).
Doesn't really affect Jotungrip since the weapons are still technically not sized for you, but it fits the theme and allows for two different options.
No, Massive weapons doesn't let you anything like that (as it is written now), it doesn't let you ignore the base rule in the corebook that it says that you can't weild Large two-handed weapon with two hands (no penalties not anything, you just can't), the ability just lets you mitigate the penalties for things the rules allow you to use.
I disagree with the way it's written now, i think that the titan mauler should be able to use a large greatsword but as it's written now it can't.
Missed that line SOMEHOW. Bit of a derp moment.
Then yes, it don't need any more interpretation, you can dual wield 2handed weapons of your size, the end.(Fury warrior anyone?) :D
Don't forget you also have the choice of using a Large two-handed weapon with two hands (sort of like a Final Fantasy character) without as much of a penalty with Massive Weapons (Ex).
Doesn't really affect Jotungrip since the weapons are still technically not sized for you, but it fits the theme and allows for two different options.
No, Massive weapons doesn't let you anything like that (as it is written now), it doesn't let you ignore the base rule in the corebook that it says that you can't weild Large two-handed weapon with two hands (no penalties not anything, you just can't), the ability just lets you mitigate the penalties for things the rules allow you to use.
I disagree with the way it's written now, i think that the titan mauler should be able to use a large greatsword but as it's written now it can't.
Are you sure this is correct? What could be the use of reducing the penalty by 6 at 18th level if you can only use large one handed weapons (which is a -2), and huge light weapons (which is a -4).
Edit: Oh, I see you are right. So RAW is a huge light weapon the largest size category one Medium creature could wield?
this is why i waslooking for a developers inturpretation of the archetype, i wanted to know the intended concept for it. it feels like the archetype was designed to allow you use weapons too big for your size and learn to fight against bigger opponents but it seems like the abillities fall short of that concept.
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Seems like it would be better if Massive weapons just made you count as Large and eventually huge for the purpose of considering weapon size. This would also imo fix the "appropriately sized" portion on Jotungrip, since if you are considered large/huge, they would be appropriately sized for your character in this specific case.
So, basically this Archetype suck? You can't use larger weapons 2 handed, and the Titan Rage is soooo bad it hurts. Is that it?
So, basically this Archetype suck? You can't use larger weapons 2 handed, and the Titan Rage is soooo bad it hurts. Is that it?
Unless you combine with Gunslinger, yes.
Firearms according to pgt 136 UC don't have a increased handiness (as a exception to normal rules) so you use Masive Weapon class ability to wield large Pistols in both hands (6 lv Barb removes penalty from inappropriate size).
Combine with Pisterlo Archetype of Gunslinger, is nice.
But non-guns can't be used very optimally since normal weapon rules prohibit large weapons in 1 hand.
So, basically this Archetype suck? You can't use larger weapons 2 handed, and the Titan Rage is soooo bad it hurts. Is that it?
i like the idea of this archetype a lot but i feel like the idea and the mechanics went different directions. i feel like i know what the class should be able to do but the mechanics fall short of reaching that goal.
if you ask me what needs to be added to the massive weapons abillity is a single line stating that the titan mauler is no longer restricted by size when trying to weild a weapon, meaning that the titan mauler can pick up any weapon his strength can handle and use it with the appropriate penalty and the massive weaponabillity reduces that penalty as you level.
So, basically this Archetype suck? You can't use larger weapons 2 handed, and the Titan Rage is soooo bad it hurts. Is that it?i like the idea of this archetype a lot but i feel like the idea and the mechanics went different directions. i feel like i know what the class should be able to do but the mechanics fall short of reaching that goal.
if you ask me what needs to be added to the massive weapons abillity is a single line stating that the titan mauler is no longer restricted by size when trying to weild a weapon, meaning that the titan mauler can pick up any weapon his strength can handle and use it with the appropriate penalty and the massive weaponabillity reduces that penalty as you level.
Actually, if you removed the line stating that Jotungrip weapons need to be appropriately sized, then the entire archetype would potentially make sense.
Their potential weapon sizes would go up one, so removing the penalty by 6 at the highest level would actually have an effect, if they wanted a gargantuan dagger or some shit.
Though, whether or not that would actually work depends on interpretation.
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So, basically this Archetype suck? You can't use larger weapons 2 handed, and the Titan Rage is soooo bad it hurts. Is that it?if you ask me what needs to be added to the massive weapons abillity is a single line stating that the titan mauler is no longer restricted by size when trying to weild a weapon, meaning that the titan mauler can pick up any weapon his strength can handle and use it with the appropriate penalty and the massive weaponabillity reduces that penalty as you level.Actually, if you removed the line stating that Jotungrip weapons need to be appropriately sized, then the entire archetype would potentially make sense.
Their potential weapon sizes would go up one, so removing the penalty by 6 at the highest level would actually have an effect, if they wanted a gargantuan dagger or some s~%*.
Removing the 'size restriction' would make this horribly overpowered, because titanmaulers would all start using size colossal greatswords.
The archtype can already use a size huge short sword. It's light at huge, one-handed at large (-2), and two-handed at medium (-4). I'm not sure how a gargauntian dagger would break down; in 3.0 it was effectively "ultra-light" (actually size tiny, but not important), so having a gar dagger being two-handed (and -6) for a medium character makes some sense, even if the rules might not work that way now.
But removing the size restriction means they'd be swinging a (medium 2d6, large 3d6-2, huge 4d6-4, gar 6d6-6, col 8d6-8) 8d6 weapon; even with a -8 size penalty to attack rolls, that's insane.
(yes, I am aware that 8d6 with -8 attack is only 2.625 damage per minus, which is less efficient than Power Attack; but titans can do this at first level; even if they miss 75% of the time, when they hit, it's dead.)
Besides, where is a character even going to find a colossal greatsword? For tht matter, how much does it weigh? If it exceeds their carrying capacity (and I think it will, at least for a 16 strength), then how are they capable of even moving with the thing, much less swinging it?
I get that oversize weapons are awesome, but the thing most people don't understand is that the greatsword is already ridiculous and oversized, with the Size Large Bastard Sword even more so.
Titanmauler lets you use a 2d8 weapon without penalty, effectively adding +2 to pretty much every single attack roll your character will make, ever. In exchange, you lose out on a +5 bonus that rarely comes up and is often forgotten even when it is relevant. I don't see the downside, and I certainly don't understand why it needs to be made better. It's already good.
and noone mentioned the barbarian from diablo 2?
I believe the archetype was made to emulate that barbarian who could dual-wield greatswords, great with whirlwind attack ^^
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At first, I waited this archetype for a NPC in the style of Berserk's Guts, using with ease the equivalent of a Large two-handed weapons and able to do it one-handed if necessary.
Instead, the result is unnecessarily complicated when considering the oversized weapons rules, and don't really feel like you become better at it by gaining levels. You are supposed to be able to loot big creatures and use their weapons, but can effectively wield only smaller and smaller weapons, only with a greater size.
At lower levels, you are able to wield two-handed medium weapons in one hand. One-handed large weapons are usable as two-handed medium weapons with a penalty, so I guess this means you could wield a large one-handed weapon in one hand. Hey, no, you can't ! But if you were able to wield a large one-handed weapon in one hand, shouldn't you be able to wield a large two-handed weapon in two hands ? Well, this archetype doesn't work like this. And this is really strange. The difference is an average of 3.5 points of damage, but you also get -2 to attack with this weapon.
We don't want a guy built around using a large weapon in one hand, but a guy using large weapons two-handed and eventually able to do it one-handed with a malus.
I feel like Jotungrip should just become something which reduces the size category of a larger weapon for the purpose of wielding it, thus allowing to wield bigger and bigger weapons one or two-handed, while Massive Weapons would reduce the maluses through leveling like it already does.
At level 1, the Titan Mauler would be able to wield one-handed large weapons two-handed.
At level 2, he would be able to wield one-handed large weapons as light large weapons, so as one-handed medium weapons with a -2 penalty ; and two-handed large weapons as one-handed large weapons : this is, two-handed medium weapons with a -2 penalty. He could also wield a huge one-handed weapon as a light huge => thus, a one-handed large => thus, a two-handed medium with a -2 penalty.
At level 6, thanks to Massive Weapons, he would be able to wield two-handed large weapons as two-handed medium weapons without any penalty to attack anymore.
This is balanced and IMHO feels more like a Titan Mauler than the actual writing. Note you can still wield big weapons in one-hand with this, keeping the Jotungrip flavor while keeping it simple.
This is a archetype that really needs a FAQ answer.
So, basically this Archetype suck? You can't use larger weapons 2 handed, and the Titan Rage is soooo bad it hurts. Is that it?if you ask me what needs to be added to the massive weapons abillity is a single line stating that the titan mauler is no longer restricted by size when trying to weild a weapon, meaning that the titan mauler can pick up any weapon his strength can handle and use it with the appropriate penalty and the massive weaponabillity reduces that penalty as you level.Actually, if you removed the line stating that Jotungrip weapons need to be appropriately sized, then the entire archetype would potentially make sense.
Their potential weapon sizes would go up one, so removing the penalty by 6 at the highest level would actually have an effect, if they wanted a gargantuan dagger or some s~%*.
Removing the 'size restriction' would make this horribly overpowered, because titanmaulers would all start using size colossal greatswords.
The archtype can already use a size huge short sword. It's light at huge, one-handed at large (-2), and two-handed at medium (-4). I'm not sure how a gargauntian dagger would break down; in 3.0 it was effectively "ultra-light" (actually size tiny, but not important), so having a gar dagger being two-handed (and -6) for a medium character makes some sense, even if the rules might not work that way now.
But removing the size restriction means they'd be swinging a (medium 2d6, large 3d6-2, huge 4d6-4, gar 6d6-6, col 8d6-8) 8d6 weapon; even with a -8 size penalty to attack rolls, that's insane.
(yes, I am aware that 8d6 with -8 attack is only 2.625 damage per minus, which is less efficient than Power Attack; but titans can do this at first level; even if they miss 75% of the time, when they hit, it's dead.)
Besides, where is a character even going to find a colossal greatsword? For tht matter, how much does it weigh? If it exceeds their...
Mate, I understand your line of thought. But I think the idea was to remove some of the size restrictions, alowing them to use something like a Large Greatsword. One step, like the old monkeygrip.
It's a lousy archetype as it is, WTF is that 14th level Rage!? It's horrible. They surelly need the boost.
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What about letting them use weapons that are one size category larger than themselves without having the "handedness" change? That would make it easier to get "more" from the bonus / extend its life, and the difference between 2d6/2d8 and 3d6/3d8 is not a big deal.
What about letting them use weapons that are one size category larger than themselves without having the "handedness" change? That would make it easier to get "more" from the bonus / extend its life, and the difference between 2d6/2d8 and 3d6/3d8 is not a big deal.
I think that was the intent.
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Don't forget you also have the choice of using a Large two-handed weapon with two hands (sort of like a Final Fantasy character) without as much of a penalty with Massive Weapons (Ex).
While it seems like you should be able to do that (in the "flavor text" of Massive Weapons), it doesn't actually say that you can wield weapons which are otherwise impossible for a creature of your size to use.
And thus, errata needed.
For the record, I love this archetype, I am really happy it was made and I plan on using often.
I just feel that something is missing from it, I feel like something was left out.
For the record, I love this archetype, I am really happy it was made and I plan on using often.
I just feel that something is missing from it, I feel like something was left out.
The idea is fantastic, and I would use it, but as it is now, you will be left behind and get frustraded.
i ussually try to design characters for a feel rather than the most optimized.
But Titan Mauler's don't match a feel either, they cant actually wield larger weapons. If they could, then you could dispute the flavor of the class, but as it stands, they just have a broader variety of greatswords to wield.
Mate, I understand your line of thought. But I think the idea was to remove some of the size restrictions, alowing them to use something like a Large Greatsword. One step, like the old monkeygrip.
It's a lousy archetype as it is, WTF is that 14th level Rage!? It's horrible. They surelly need the boost.
Yeah BobChuck, you misunderstood me.
Basically what I'm wanting Jotungrip to be is:
"A titan mauler may choose to wield any weapon as though it were a one-handed weapon of the size category in which it must be wielded two-handed, taking a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This weapon still incurs any penalty for being inappropriately sized as normal."
I think that the Titan Mauler's Massive Weapon abillity is nice and all but you wont be gaining anything from it unless you are weilding a gargantuan dagger, something anyone can do now but with a penalty to attack. Who would choose to build a character using this weapon and what do they really gain by doing so?
I just feel the class concept is awesome and the abillities are really nice but the class needs to gain something for actually weilding bigger weapons someone of their size cant, Titan rage is nice and helps with this and I am not saying I want to be able to weild a huge sword at first level but waiting to gain Titan Rage feels like it takes too long.
I just feel that Massive Weapon will be underutalized in the class.
The rules seem overly complicated for thios archetype, you just want it to be able to wield a weapon one size larger than you should really..
Large greatsword 2handed, Large warhammer 1handed or a great axe in 1 hand, without penalties.. not a big deal but it would be cool.
Enlarge person should drop the exhaustion rule, but otherwise think it is fine, though it might be a bit late considering enlarge person is really easy to cast, but not being dispelable counts for something.
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As the rules for this archetype are written now, massive weapon would make Jotungrip mostly obsolete at level 3. The only time it would make sense is to use a 2hander one handed with a shield. You could use it to build a duel wielder, but the penalties and feat requirements would make it problematic for a pure Barbarian.
Looking at Massive Weapon there is another problem. It scales to -6 at 18th level, but as it sits now you couldn’t use more than a -4 if a medium barbarian was using Huge light weapon. This reduction can’t be used to offset other melee penalties such as feats (power attack or two weapon fighting). Allowing unlimited progression is pointless, unless you could eventually wield any gargantuan weapon 2handed.
People keep pointing out that you could wield a Huge light weapon. But the question is, why would you? Look at the shortsword. A medium one does 1d6. Large would be 1d8. Huge would be 2d6. Do you know what else is a 2d6 19-20/x2 two-handed slashing weapon? A greatsword. And you could wield that at level one without penalties.
So really, unless there is some major errata, the archetype is rather terrible from a mechanical standpoint. Which makes me sad, because I really like the idea.
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People keep pointing out that you could wield a Huge light weapon. But the question is, why would you? Look at the shortsword. A medium one does 1d6. Large would be 1d8. Huge would be 2d6. Do you know what else is a 2d6 19-20/x2 two-handed slashing weapon? A greatsword. And you could wield that at level one without penalties.
So really, unless there is some major errata, the archetype is rather terrible from a mechanical standpoint. Which makes me sad, because I really like the idea.
The only point of this archtype is so that the iconic works better. the iconic uses a large bastard sword. so with this archtype you dont take the -2.
Ok so this ability lets you wield 2handed weapons in 1 hand. and people dont get why this is useful??? lets think of the intimidating factor of seeing these examples.
Dual wielding Scythes. Yeah the grim reaper is scary but hooded and cloaked guy running in wielding 2 succesfully 2d4 x4 crit.. yeah scary.
It looks very scary. Then the Barbarian two-handing the same weapon laughs in realization of how unlikely it is a person with such an unwieldy setup would hit them and then proceeds to chop it to bits.
Useless feat when you consider Power attack. Well maybe having reach would be nice.
People keep pointing out that you could wield a Huge light weapon. But the question is, why would you? Look at the shortsword. A medium one does 1d6. Large would be 1d8. Huge would be 2d6. Do you know what else is a 2d6 19-20/x2 two-handed slashing weapon? A greatsword. And you could wield that at level one without penalties.
So really, unless there is some major errata, the archetype is rather terrible from a mechanical standpoint. Which makes me sad, because I really like the idea.
This.
So far, the only benefit I've noticed is the bastard sword, which was also mentioned. If only one or two weapons from an entire list provide any real mechanical benefit (I actually think a large heavy pick might be good for a x4 crit, but that's a flavor thing, probably) then the archetype has presumably been A) poorly thought out, B) scaled back just before final print due to some perceived power disparity, or C) designed with this small handful of weapons in mind.
I don't feel like the damage difference is enough to warrant bothering. Could have just limited it all to weapons one size category larger than the wielder and it would have been better than what it is without breaking the game.
One of the only real, solid uses of the Titan Mauler, hilariously, is used by someone who is not AT ALL the kind of person you think of when thinking of the words "Titan Mauler".... because she is a _perfect_ example of a cavalier.
No, really. Dual-wield a lance and a short sword? Yes please. It's even better when you consider that the TM's ability to reduce reach can make it so that this character will be forever immune to attacks of opportunity.
It's actually really keen.
Are they good at what's on the box? No. That doesn't mean you can't take it out of it though.
People keep pointing out that you could wield a Huge light weapon. But the question is, why would you? Look at the shortsword. A medium one does 1d6. Large would be 1d8. Huge would be 2d6. Do you know what else is a 2d6 19-20/x2 two-handed slashing weapon? A greatsword. And you could wield that at level one without penalties.
So really, unless there is some major errata, the archetype is rather terrible from a mechanical standpoint. Which makes me sad, because I really like the idea.
Exactly. What's more, from the vanilla giants of Bestiary 1 & 2, not one is carrying a light weapon; in fact, with the exception of the Rune Giant, they all wild two-handed weapons or no weapons at all.
Which makes me sad, since I'm taking a Titan Mauler through Rise of the Runelords as a sort of giant slayer (with feats and traits I'm at +2 hit/+4 damage vs Large and larger opponents), and the other archetype abilities work well with that. But I was hoping to actually wield the giants weapons against them, which would be wicked cool for my 7 foot tall Shoanti barbarian.
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Which makes me sad, since I'm taking a Titan Mauler through Rise of the Runelords as a sort of giant slayer (with feats and traits I'm at +2 hit/+4 damage vs Large and larger opponents), and the other archetype abilities work well with that. But I was hoping to actually wield the giants weapons against them, which would be wicked cool for my 7 foot tall Shoanti barbarian.
Note that Massive Weapons will eventually eliminate, at 6th level, the penalty for wielding a large-waraxe or a large-bastardsword two-handed.
-- Which is good, because there isn't a reason on earth to take Titan Mauler past 6th level because it offers you nothing else until 14th. (Meaning you could multiclass fighter the rest.)
The problem being I'd first have to spend a feat on waraxe or bastard sword proficiency, and then hope on of the giants did the same and happens to drop one for me. They're not exactly common giant weapons.
I'm trying out a DW greatsword/shortsword titan mauler barbarian character this weekend. I'll see how it compares to the multiple two-handed fighters in the group, especially since my AC is 13, I have over 100 hit points and I have DR 10/bludgeoning from a template.
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The problem being I'd first have to spend a feat on waraxe or bastard sword proficiency
You only need EWP if you're going to one-hand them (which you can't do anyway if they're large). Some DMs will house-rule you need EWP to two-hand a large one, but it's not a set-in-print rule (i.e., PFS doesn't require it).
Why is everyone using the shortsword as an example? Surely there are better weapons that can be up-sized. Weapons with special abilities or with better crit ranges/multipliers.
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Why is everyone using the shortsword as an example?
I imagine it's because the only thing 'up-sizing' increases on a weapon is the damage die, so the bigger it starts, the better. Unless you can find a light weapon with a higher than d6 damage die, then you might as well talk about a shortsword in this context - anything else is gravy.
Some may argue that larger than normal reach weapons increase their reach range too, but I doubt we'll see too many Barbarians two-handing large whips any time soon... ;)