Harles |
My group is preparing to abandon its current campaign because the GM is at his wits' end (not that it's really important to the topic, we are midway through Council of Thieves.) It is falling to me to try to pull the group back together after what's proven to be a pretty frustrating exercise in PFRPG.
(Disclosure- PF would not be my first choice of game to run, but half the players feel strongly in favor of it.)
Let me list our ongoing issues, and maybe you can help me find ways to avoid these pitfalls:
1. The group doesn't remember what happens from session to session and doesn't bother to read the emailed notes. Thus, plot and story from PF Adventure Paths are often lost on them. (When we did Kingmaker prior to this, most were not interested in kingdom building or roleplaying.)
2. They still don't know the rules. We've been playing some variant of d20 for a decade and they still spend about a third of their time looking up obscure rules for meddling situations that rarely come up.
3. They are shockingly bad at math, particularly with multiple attacks per round and adding buffs.
4. One player in particular goes out of his way to create the least useful character imaginable (ex. A wizard focusing on detect secret doors when there's already a rogue in the party.)
Can you think of a way to avoid these pitfalls? I am contemplating disappointing half the group by switching them to 4E to address numbers 2-4.
I was thinking about running Society adventures to address problem #1, but discovered that we probably couldn't report legally (that was a longer conversation I had in the PFS forum.) Still it wouldn't address 2-4.
The basic idea is that PF is just too complex for my group. What can I do as DM about that.
Jeranimus Rex |
1. Don't run involved Campaigns of adventure paths. Take them through a monster Stomp in a Dungeon, may be have a Castle Siege, or even Gladitorial Arenas (UC has Perfomance Combat Rules for just this kind of occasion.)
If your players have any genuine interest in Roll playing, you can test the waters by having them interact with Dungeon denizens, Warmasters, or Gladiator trainors.
2 & 3. Keep them at low levels. Smaller numbers, and fewer moving parts to keep track of. Have their Gladitorial Career/Siege/Dungeon Delve take them to around 6th, and give them an opportunity to get a feel for additional iterative attacks, more spells, and larger buffs. Then start over. Practice makes perfect, and if they really want to continue with advancement, then hopefully they should be able to pull things together by the time things really get large.
4. LOL Communication is key. If the dude is still having fun, then no problem. If the guy feels like he's useless, talk to him about options your comfortable giving him in terms of making him more usefull.
Syras |
1. Perhaps they are bored?
2. Be a rule whore when that happens. "I'm gonna ask that guy in the bar where I can find this or that"...YOU - "roll diplomacy"...HIM "rolled a 19!"...YOU - "He hates elves, FAIL".
3. Have them all write down on their stat sheets exactly what they have to roll, how much added damage they get per attack, etc.
4. More power to him if he's enjoying it. If he's not enjoying it, tell him point blank it sucks.
On a politically correct note: If you really want them to have fun, find out what it is they really want to do/accomplish. I am in a group now where one guy simply doesn't like to do anything except roll the dice on the mat and smash face. Another guy wants to build, be a part of a fantasy community, grow, etc.
It's all about balance. Remember this - if people get mad at you during a session, it's because they are and it's also because they CARE. That means, they ARE getting into the game.
Make sure that if you are a GM, CHEAT! It's in every book you will ever see. Don't make walks in the park of any campaign, don't make it too difficult either. You can, as a GM, get them out of trouble if you have placed something too difficult for them in the first place.
As the previous poster stated, communication is the key. Also, making sure that EVERYONE gets involved helps too. You will always notice the one guy that doesn't talk much, or just sits quietly, get him involved too. If everyone talks too much, give them a reason to keep quiet during someone's turn (Ok Bob, while Tom is telling me what's going on here, figure out where you plan on taking the group after he's done but remember, the first words out of your mouth I am going to take literally!).
Anyway, it's a small novel but I feel your pain. Have fun! Good luck!
A Man In Black RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 |
Bring Talisman, Hero Quest, Descent, Arkham Horror, or some other adventuring board game next session. (Paizo sells all of them on this website, save for HQ, which hasn't been in print for a long time.) Play that instead.
These guys really don't want to get invested in their characters, get invested in the story, or master the rules. That's fine, there are games that don't require that. Thing is, Pathfinder isn't one of those games.
Bruunwald |
I may be able to help a little.
For one, I had problems with players not remembering much, even with two people sending out emails and "newsletters" in-between sessions. The main reason had to do with a single player who spent a lot of his time making jokes and twisting around what had happened, so that nothing could be taken seriously (the "newsletter" was an attempt to do this in print, which was funny but didn't help at all). This bad attitude tended to make it hard for everyone else to take anything seriously, so they just sort of dismissed it. Not that you have such a singular disruptive player (though that one guy sounds a little like it), but if you do have somebody who is trivializing things, it might be worth it to have a talk with them.
As to rules, I have long run "girlfriend games," which means I don't expect my players to be terribly rules savvy. If one guy is, I concentrate on getting him to help out a little. We also have a standing rule of everybody figuring out what they are going to do during the other guys' turns, so there is no waiting around for them to look something up on their turn. It might not be realistic to expect a high level of knowledge in this arena. RPGs in general are complicated and not first on the list of importance for most people, even many players.
I keep track of buffs. I don't expect every player to remember every buff in play on the field (that actually is the GM's job, after all). We use terrains and minis, which means we can place tokens or glass beads down next to the minis to remind of buffs. I also keep stat cards on everybody, and sometimes put the tokens there.
Talk to the problem player. Explain that while you appreciate what he is going after, it is not helping with the party as a whole, considering the level of help they need to keep the game cohesive.
Aside from that, I'm not sure another game will work. Your group sounds rather unenthusiastic in general, maybe lazy, and obviously distracted. Might be any game more complicated than checkers will result in this sort of behavior.
redcelt32 |
#1 - If your group won't bother to take the time to read a few paragraphs before the game, how in the world are they ever going to learn the rules of the game, which require a lot more reading? Worse case, make everyone sit there and listen while an appointed player (rotate duty if necessary) reads the updates and notes before each session.
If missing something important in the storyline isnt a big enough incentive to pay attention to these notes, then I suggest not running an AP, they won't be invested enough in whats happening to make it a fulfilling experience.
Switching back to 4E wont fix #2-4... taking the time to prepare and not waste your GMs time and that of the players who do bother to learn the rules and how to add WILL fix #2-3. Sounds like you will have those with any game system you pick unless there is one everyone already knows.
Making an ineffective character isn't really a showstopper, just creates some redundancy within the party. Most games don't use individual XP anymore so it shouldnt be a problem. Perhaps a bit of an imposition on the other players, but thats a personality issue, not a game issue.
Buy the basic game box when it comes out.. thats the best advice I can give you.
redcelt32 |
Bring Talisman, Hero Quest, Descent, Arkham Horror, or some other adventuring board game next session. (Paizo sells all of them on this website, save for HQ, which hasn't been in print for a long time.) Play that instead.
These guys really don't want to get invested in their characters, get invested in the story, or master the rules. That's fine, there are games that don't require that. Thing is, Pathfinder isn't one of those games.
Toon...:)
BigNorseWolf |
-I must be more instructive than telling people to find another group, i must be more instructive than telling people to find another group....
1. The group doesn't remember what happens from session to session and doesn't bother to read the emailed notes. Thus, plot and story from PF Adventure Paths are often lost on them. (When we did Kingmaker prior to this, most were not interested in kingdom building or roleplaying.)
How long is it in between game sessions?
Try to engage the PC's more with NPC's as characters rather than a particularly well stated out monster.
Find something the PC's care about and incorporate it into the story. If they have a pet monkey, have the NPC interact with it somehow.
2. They still don't know the rules. We've been playing some variant of d20 for a decade and they still spend about a third of their time looking up obscure rules for meddling situations that rarely come up.
1) Have someone at the table (it helps if its the dm but it doesn't have to be) that knows the rules well enough that you don't have to look anything up. So player 1 can say "i want to do this" and then rules guy can say "That works like this..." I know its a scary thought, but getting into the rules.. erm.. discussions on the rules threads REALLY helps me to remember the particulars.
2) 1 does not have to be perfect. Get something that works, go with it during the game session, write it down, and look up the rule in between sessions.
3. They are shockingly bad at math, particularly with multiple attacks per round and adding buffs.
well at least they know to buff...
We had a party bard that would simply say and 1 whenever someone announced the total ac that they hit and damage dealt.
On the character sheet, instead of using 6 slots for weapons you'll never use, use one spot for full attack, one for regular attack etc.
If its really bad hero lab is supposed to have an in combat tracker, but i've found that it can't handle everything.
4. One player in particular goes out of his way to create the least useful character imaginable (ex. A wizard focusing on detect secret doors when there's already a rogue in the party.)
Will he take advice or no?
The basic idea is that PF is just too complex for my group. What can I do as DM about that.
Help them with the math or play wow.
Richard Leonhart |
your "problems" are what I usually have:
1. not much roleplay or interest of the book-worthy story? Just roll with it, you no longer need to plan a lot ahead. Just make funny scenarios that build on nothing and put some fights in between.
2. while they are looking stuff up, they don't talk. But seriously, that fault might be at the GM. Interact with them directly, no long "I read this prepared text that will hint to 3 things I said 5 weeks ago".
3. okay, I never had that problem, but then just play lvl 1-4. If they don't get that math, then ... then ... make every check a 50-50 coinflip.
4. I was in a group where one player wanted (and did) play the little bird familiar of another wizard. Just accept that you have a useless person, and enjoy the jokes everyone makes.
Also if you made the group paranoid, that might be a reason for him to create such a PC.
Switching to 4E, I wouldn't do it, mainly personal reasons that have nothing to do with this specific situation.
too complex? Make it less complex, "go down dungeon and kill people" isn't complex, neither is "go to ruins and explore everything". And when they forgot who to report to, just remind them. Your folks probably don't want to shakespearian acting, they want a good time between friends. Deliver