How did the battle with the jubberwock went for your group?
How did your DM run it?
Was it easy?
Was it rough?
My group's experience with the jubberwock was a huge dissapointment, i really can't understand who thought to put him alone against 4 PCs, in my group the jubberwock didn't even get the chance to act, it was dead before it's initiative came up.
Before i tell you did that happened i will first tell you the party.
We were 16th level when we faced it.
1) Human ranger, switch hitter with the briar (me)
2) Human bladebound STR based magus
3) Human TWF rogue
4) Human sword and board waste of space cleric/holy vindicator of Iomidae
Our DM made the mistake of giving us 10 rounds pre-buff (only one was enough for what happened).
We see the jubberwock flying to our city, we ride our horses and leave the city in order to face it outside of the city (so that no poeple are hurt).
As i said the DM gave us 10 rounds pre battle, the magus and the cleric start casting their as**s, my ranger and rogue (who defeated the jubberwock) only had the following buffs, the rogue had prayer, heroism and blessing of fervor (haste effect because he didn't want to spend his boots rounds) and i had protection from evil, blessing of fervor (+2 to hit, i decide to use my boots), prayer and bestow grace of the champion (+1 to attack, +6 to damage).
Now when we rolled initiative the jubberwock was 60 ft. away and 30 ft. high, the rogue and my ranger play before the jubberwock.
MY ranger goes first, quick draws his rod of reach and casts instant enemy, quick draws his +3 holy bow, activates boots of speed, and starts firing at the jubberwock with dragonbane arrows, the result? the jubberwock lost a little more than 300 hitpoints, then the rogue with the sniper's googles quick draws his shortbow and fires 3-4 sneak attacks with dragon bane arrows at the jubberwock and drops it.
Oh btw my character didn't need the +3 to attack (from prayer and bessing of fervor) to hit the jubberwock, all of my rolls were at least 3 above it's AC.
So what happened to your game with the jubberwock?
I don't know (yet) what will happen in my campaign with the jabberwock, but I'm mystified as to how your group even knew to expect the Jabberwock, let alone what it was. How your campaign specifically went could be good reason for posessing a raft of very expensive creature-type-specific arrows.
It should not have been flat-footed - it would have easily seen the lot of you much further out than 60 feet.
What I will say is this: the critter's eye rays are lethal - they have a range increment of 60 feet - which means at least a 300 ft total range-to-target(s), and I would say they have a maximum of 10 range increments for a 600 ft range-to-target. And they stack with the Vital Strike feat chain since firing both rays is a standard action.
Result should have been one thoroughly charbroiled briquette character at 300 feet. It would work to maintain distance to targets of about 200 - 300 feet, seeking incinerate the lot of you one or two at a time. Only those especially difficult for the rays to hit warrant closing in. If it drives you off, the Jabberwock goes all Godzilla on the city with at-will beams of destructive nastiness.
Ok first of all, both my character and the rogue were carring dragonbane, giantbane, feybane and humanbane arrows from the start of the 4th book (if not the end of the 3rd).
The jubberwock was flat footed because we defeated it in initiative.
After reading the jabberwock (now), no it can't use it's ray attack with vital strike, using the ray requires a standard action so it can't be used with the vital strike (the same way focused shot or cleave can't be used).
Where do you see the 60 foot range increment of the eye rays? i don't see them which leads me to believe that it can use them from as far as it can.
Now i don't know why the DM had the battle begin at 60 ft. away 30 ft. high but even then big deal, it would have taken my character two rounds to finish it off instead of one if it was at less than 300 ft. away and there is no way to finish me off with it's rays .
Why would it want to destroy the city? my character had the briar (which is what the briar was after).
From Bestiary 2 (Jabberworck, as far as I know the one in Kingmaker is probably weaker): "Eye Rays (Su) The jabberwock can project beams of fire from its eyes as a ranged touch attack as a standard action, with a range increment of 60 feet. It projects two beams, and can target different creatures with these beams if it wishes as long as both targets are within 30 feet of each other. A creature that takes damage from an eye beam suffers burn."
Apparently Jabberwock's Eye Rays work differently than most rays.
As for the initiative: your GM made a tactical mistake - with potential ranges of attacks from either side he should roll for initiative from much greater distance as both sides were aware of each other from afar and were capable of firing on each other from much greater range.
Well the entry in the Kingmaker (of the lesser jabberwock) doesn't say anything for range but it must be a typo.
How did you run it Drejk?
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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From Bestiary 2 (Jabberworck, as far as I know the one in Kingmaker is probably weaker): "Eye Rays (Su) The jabberwock can project beams of fire from its eyes as a ranged touch attack as a standard action, with a range increment of 60 feet. It projects two beams, and can target different creatures with these beams if it wishes as long as both targets are within 30 feet of each other. A creature that takes damage from an eye beam suffers burn."
Apparently Jabberwock's Eye Rays work differently than most rays.
As for the initiative: your GM made a tactical mistake - with potential ranges of attacks from either side he should roll for initiative from much greater distance as both sides were aware of each other from afar and were capable of firing on each other from much greater range.
Yep. And at +26 touch, 15d6 damage (no save), crit on 19-20, then suffer burn 6d6 DC 31, these are nothing to "so what" at. If it uses Vital Strike against a single target, that 30d6.
Also, with Whiffling, it's AC versus ranged attacks is 42, 38 even if it was flat-footed (which was definitely a mistake on the GM's part). Plus, it has DR 15/vorpal. It should have taken 15 less damage from every arrow unless it was a vorpal arrow (which is not possible, by the rules).
Seems to me your GM was very unfamiliar with high level combat like this. Alternatively, he was truly frightened that he was going to TPK you, so he tossed you a softball in an effort to mitigate his fear. Hopefully, he learned his lesson. You guys obviously know what you're doing and don't need to be treated with kid gloves.
@Drogon
First of all as i have said the jabberwock can't use vital strike with it's rays.
You forget that i had bestow grace of the champion on me, so no DR against my attacks.
In order to activate Wiffling it had to come close so it can full attack.
I don't know what the DM was thinking but how do you run it for your players? At what distance you put it?
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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@Drogon
First of all as i have said the jabberwock can't use vital strike with it's rays.
You forget that i had bestow grace of the champion on me, so no DR against my attacks.
In order to activate Wiffling it had to come close so it can full attack.
I don't know what the DM was thinking but how do you run it for your players? At what distance you put it?
If it's flying, Whiffling is always up. It's not activated. Arrows being shot at it have to pass through the effect, thus +4 to its AC.
It's damage reduction "can only be bypassed by weapons with the vorpal quality." The fact that the creature's rules write-up calls this out specifically, to me, means that it overrides anything else that may be going on.
It *can* use vital strike with its eye rays. Again, that is specifically called out in its stat block.
But I understand what you're asking (i.e., doesn't matter what's done; how would I run it...)
I would run it by making the above interpretations, first and foremost. I will start the combat with the creature off the battlemap; with a single move, flying down at a 45 degree angle, it can move from 120 feet away to within your midst and make a single attack (this is called for in its tactics). I see no reason that I would not continue to follow the tactics and burble on the second round (DC 28 will save or be confused). Again, I see no reason to not follow its written tactics and subsequently full attack the weilder of Briar, hoping to gain the weapon and leave.
If your party had demonstrated a strong ability to deal with all this (your AC is above 46, your will saves are better than +18, or you all have vorpal weapons), then I would alter the tactics to do what it does if its enemies pose a true threat after three rounds: remain in the air and vital strike with a single eye ray attack each round, hoping to take down the weilder of Briar and get the weapon away from the group.
And, yes, I'm running this AP. I am looking forward to this particular combat, and would be incredibly sad to find out my players were as disappointed in it as you were. The Jabberwock is a truly legendary foe, even the "lesser" one that you fight in the Kingmaker AP. It should never have been one-shotted.
@Dragon
Ok i re-read the statblock of the stat block of the lesser jabberwock, apperantly the one who wrote it didn't know the rules around vital strike very well, anyway let's say it can be done.
And the paladin's ability to smite evil is an absolute (any DR) and absolutes are well absolutes, so i don't think that the DR should apply (remember the paladin can overcome even DR epic if the it's against an evil creature).
Now at the run:
You lost me, at what point would you roll initiative?
Well the entry in the Kingmaker (of the lesser jabberwock) doesn't say anything for range but it must be a typo.
How did you run it Drejk?
I hadn't. Regretfully Kingmaker is beyond my financial grasp currently, as much as I would like to try it on my fellow players (I love turn based startegies, I don't know how any of the groups I play with would be able to handle my focus on that part of the game) - I only commented on what you said in your post (like the matter of distance during the encounter) and what I know about that AP in general (i.e. that KM Jabberwock is weaker version than the one in Bestiary 2, which is CR 23).
I just think that those 10 pre-battle turns should be played as part of the battle - initiative should be rolled from much greater distance and both sides should be able to take their turns buffing themselves and/or maneuvering into optimal (from their point of view) position.
Yes the 10 pre-battle turns were indeed a mistake.
It's damage reduction "can only be bypassed by weapons with the vorpal quality." The fact that the creature's rules write-up calls this out specifically, to me, means that it overrides anything else that may be going on.
This is the same 'unstoppable force vs. immovable object' posed by a Paladin tangling with a demilich, who in fact has the same type of DR. By the RAW, Paladin Smite overcomes ANY type of DR...which unfortunately makes the demilich a considerably anticlimactic encounter for the paladin..
It's damage reduction "can only be bypassed by weapons with the vorpal quality." The fact that the creature's rules write-up calls this out specifically, to me, means that it overrides anything else that may be going on.This is the same 'unstoppable force vs. immovable object' posed by a Paladin tangling with a demilich, who in fact has the same type of DR. By the RAW, Paladin Smite overcomes ANY type of DR...which unfortunately makes the demilich a considerably anticlimactic encounter for the paladin..
Where does in PF explain "unstoppable force vs. immovable object"? I have seen it in other games (specifically exalted) but not in PF.
Anyway this discussion is unneeded, because in the core it gives an example of DR, "DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic.", so if a paladin's smite doesn't work in a jabberwock's DR then it doesn't work on this one as well and that makes the ability unusable.
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It seems to me like if its a legendary creature and its eye beams shoot that far, that it has to have fairly good eyesight. This means it should be shooting at a party long before they shoot back at it, or alternatively at the very least have a good chance of getting off the first shot at very long range.
It would be really awesome if some of the Paizo staff that created this encounter felt like chiming in with their view of how this encounter was set up to run. :)
Ok first of all, both my character and the rogue were carrying dragonbane, giantbane, feybane and humanbane arrows from the start of the 4th book (if not the end of the 3rd).
The jubberwock was flat footed because we defeated it in initiative.
After reading the jabberwock (now), no it can't use it's ray attack with vital strike, using the ray requires a standard action so it can't be used with the vital strike (the same way focused shot or cleave can't be used).
Where do you see the 60 foot range increment of the eye rays? i don't see them which leads me to believe that it can use them from as far as it can.
Now i don't know why the DM had the battle begin at 60 ft. away 30 ft. high but even then big deal, it would have taken my character two rounds to finish it off instead of one if it was at less than 300 ft. away and there is no way to finish me off with it's rays .
Why would it want to destroy the city? my character had the briar (which is what the briar was after).
Based on the description, the encounter proper started at about 800 - 1600 ft distance. (10 rounds at the Jabberwock's flying speed.)
As pointed out above, the eye rays most certainly work with the Vital Strike feat chain. In and of itself the rays are a standard action ranged touch attack - perfectly compatible with the Vital Strike chain.
As pointed out, the range increment is in the rays' descriptive text. The jabberwock should have been burning characters into ash from as far out as possible.
At this level of play, PCs *bamfing* out when they're getting smoked to regroup and recoup is a routine occurance against most foes, such as the Jabberwock.
If all the Jabberwock is after is Briar, that's one thing. However, since it is confronting the rulers of the kingdom in close proximity to a city, and those rulers flee with Briar (typically via teleport), it is still one of the Tane. As such, it turns its attentions towards the city in an effort to draw out those who flee its defense.
If you started "no buffs" at an 800 ft encounter distance, the Jabberwock - presuming a 600 firing range - should have been at that range at the end of its first round. Your touch AC is almost certainly not higher than about the mid-20s, especially at that early point in the encounter.
(a) Vital Strike applies, both eye rays hit (even with the range increment penalty), welcome to 210 points of fire damage plus 2 DC 30 Reflex saves to not catch fire and enjoy burn on strictly average rolls.
(b) Vital Strike doesn't apply, both rays hit, 105 fire damage plus 2 DC 30 Reflex saves to not catch fire and burn 6d6/round until you spend a full-round action to put yourself out. Massive trauma might snuff you in either case with two risks of that each round.
The Jabberwock should have flash-fried some one on its opening shot, the "waste of space" would be primary as the group's healer.
:)
I have run the Jabberwock. I changed it to a full Jabberwock because my players were lvl 19.
Vital Strike does not work with the eye rays. Because the tactics text says it does, does not mean that by the rules it works. We already know that it does not by RaW work with Spring Attack or the like. Vital Strike works with the attack action, not any standard action. No idea where some of you are getting that Vital Strike and the Jabberwock's eye rays work together. You have some kind of rule citation for that?
Whiffling only works when the Jabberwock takes a full attack action. Not when it is flying. So he would have taken no penalty on arrows.
Vorpal DR is typed. Which means spells and effects that penetrate DR penetrate a Jabberwock's DR such as Penetrating Strike and the like.
My party also killed the Jabberwock in one round. But they were extremely lucky. I changed Briar into a bow and gave it the equivalent of the special ability it is supposed to have. I started off fine with the Jabberwock planning evasion maneuvers to wait out the party buffs. But the sorcerer turned into a dragon to pursue it and Jabberwock's don't fly very fast. The archer with Briar fired the bow at it using Perfect Strike and rolled a 20 to activate Briar's special power and a 19 to confirm. The Jabberwock rolled a 1 on its save and was instantly killed.
Not so great from a DM trying to challenge hte party perspective. But pretty darn cool from a story perspective. So I couldn't be too unhappy. I already had it rip apart huge chunks of their city and kill a bunch of their people. So the damage was done.
I can see how you killed it if you ran it exactly as is. Creatures in Pathfinder have an extremely low amount of hit points compared to what optimized Pathfinder characters dish out.
I tend to inflate single huge individual creatures hit points to make up for this. My Jabberwock had 1085 hit points. So it wasn't going to die in one round to hit point damage. But it rolled an unlucky save.
Jabberwock has a +5 initiative. Not hard for dex focused characters to beat. And if your DM didn't up the AC, probably not hard for you all to hit, especially flat-footed. So not surprised you crushed it.
Though your DM could have had it do a series of strafe attacks. That might have helped. It sounds like your party was range heavy, which would make the Jabberwock out of luck.
Ok normally vital strike can't be used with the rays, it's just as using vital strike with feats like cleave, focused shot, pinpoint targeting etc. but let's assume that the jabberwock has some form of rule immunity and can fire one ray (not two) with vital strike as it's said on the stat block.
Oh and my ranger would be able to save the burn on a 8-9+. The rogue at an even lower roll.
What is this massive trauma you said?
Who or what is this Tane you mentioned?
But your base assumption is correct, if the battle starts at 800ft. then the jabberwock can begin firing from his eyes, and yes it's more likely to succeed at the touch AC than any archer to succeed at hitting his AC with the range penalties, but you know what happens next turn? the party starts casting protection from energy and energy resistance. But yes the jabberwock battle should start at a quite large distance.
@Maddigan
No the party wasn't especially ranged heavy, it had my switch hitter ranger (with a tad more focus to archery than a normal switch hitter) and the rogue who just had an insane DEX a good bow (+3 iirc) and sniping googles, of course both of us had special arrows in our efficient quivers(seeking, various bane etc.). Oh and a magus with an extended overland flight (not that he got the chance to anything)
Now to your experience:
WOW, just WOW!!!!!!!!!!!
That's.... that's..... one darn lucky roll, i still can't believe it.
But as you said yours made a better story, in your story the jabberwock was brought down by it's bane, nemesis the legendary briar (and we all know the story behind that artifact). In my story it was brought down by a ranger of Erastil who was momentarily granted the powers of a holy warrior by Iomidae and was using a bow blessed by the powers of good, WHILE the above mentioned weapon of legend never left the sheath, oh and then it was shot in the eye by an ex-bandid with some really good glasses.
Also in your story the jabberwock did something, in ours didn't even have the luck to say hello.
I see. Some of you are going off what is written in its tactics. The tactics section does not supercede the rules of the game. Because a module designer doesn't fully understand the rules doesn't mean the Jabberwock can suddenly fire a Vital Strike eye ray.
This is why I always comb over stat blocks and adjust them. Module designers write modules. I'm sure there are rule editors at Paizo that check stat blocks. But they miss something in almost every module. This is another example of something they missed.
If you want to run it that way, fine by me. I didn't. And even if you run it using the stat block, it's still only one eye ray per round. Which is the same as them firing both eye rays. It's 30d6 either way.
All you have to do to defeat it is take cover behind something large or erect a barrier. Toss up some energy resist spells. And heal through it. Not a hard tactic to beat for a prepared party.
One tactic you should be prepared for is the teleport the melee on top of it to hammer it. If your party coordinates a series of delay actions with a well-timed teleport and mass fly, they will light your Jabberwock up.
Also archers mounted on fast mounts with a healer are dangerous too as they can kite the Jabberwock. If you have a sorcerer or wizard that can shapechange into a fire immune dragon, he can put the healer and archer on his back and kite the Jabberwock at full speed while the archer lights him up.
So best not get to cocky with your Jabberwock. They are tough. But as with all single creatures, a party with the resources of four players with at least two casters can turn your Jabberwock encounter into something trivial.
Tossing out some advice for DMs that will be running this in the future. You know those parties. They always think up something you don't expect.
Ok normally vital strike can't be used with the rays, it's just as using vital strike with feats like cleave, focused shot, pinpoint targeting etc. but let's assume that the jabberwock has some form of rule immunity and can fire one ray (not two) with vital strike as it's said on the stat block.
Oh and my ranger would be able to save the burn on a 8-9+. The rogue at an even lower roll.
What is this massive trauma you said?
Who or what is this Tane you mentioned?
But your base assumption is correct, if the battle starts at 800ft. then the jabberwock can begin firing from his eyes, and yes it's more likely to succeed at the touch AC than any archer to succeed at hitting his AC with the range penalties, but you know what happens next turn? the party starts casting protection from energy and energy resistance. But yes the jabberwock battle should start at a quite large distance.
Massive trauma is an optional combat rule - each time a single attack (after defenses) deals 50+ lethal damage, DC 15 Fort save or die on the spot. Many GMs use it, but not all.
The Jabberwock is one of the Tane, living engines of destruction from the First World. They are deployed to lay waste entire cities if I recall the flavor text correctly.
From the sound of things, you played it spot on. :) Sucked to be the Jabberwock that day.
Bestow grace of the champion? (I recognize the "get my best favored enemy bonus spell" from your ranger spell list...)
Bestow Grace addds sacred bonus on your saves equal to your Charisma.
I don't know what spell you got - even from the Holy Vindicator, whos "waste of space" would seem to be why it didn't deduct 15 DR per each of your arrows. Not so much of a waste of space character all of a sudden, since otherwise only raw firepower or Briar is your only means to bypass that DR.
I presume that some how the Holy Vindicator graced you with the ability to smite evil?
Point is, the Jabberwock has the potential to force a party to react to it instead of acting against it.
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Your DM blew it....which is understandable where higher-level play is concerned. if you don't have a ton of time to prepare as a DM, almost every high level encounter is a "doh! I shudda done X!!!" and I personally blame that on the overly complicated nature of high-level play. Sorry it was a let-down for your group. I wish Paizo would figure out a better way for high level play.
@Maddigan
No the party wasn't especially ranged heavy, it had my switch hitter ranger (with a tad more focus to archery than a normal switch hitter) and the rogue who just had an insane DEX a good bow (+3 iirc) and sniping googles, of course both of us had special arrows in our efficient quivers(seeking, various bane etc.). Oh and a magus with an extended overland flight (not that he got the chance to anything)
Now to your experience:
WOW, just WOW!!!!!!!!!!!
That's.... that's..... one darn lucky roll, i still can't believe it.
But as you said yours made a better story, in your story the jabberwock was brought down by it's bane, nemesis the legendary briar (and we all know the story behind that artifact). In my story it was brought down by a ranger of Erastil who was momentarily granted the powers of a holy warrior by Iomidae and was using a bow blessed by the powers of good, WHILE the above mentioned weapon of legend never left the sheath, oh and then it was shot in the eye by an ex-bandid with some really good glasses.
Also in your story the jabberwock did something, in ours didn't even have the luck to say hello.
I roll everything in front of my party. And my players roll everything in front of me. It's the way my group likes it.
You should have heard the cheers around the table.
They all thought they were in for a tough, pro-longed nasty fight. They were preparing the teleport attack I talk about above to lay the pain on the Jabberwock.
But the archer got lucky and ended all that.
I had the Jabberwock's master open a gate over the city while the players were spread out. She brought the creature with her and set it to work on the city. She cast a storm of vengeance and an earthquake on their castle. She hammered their guards and all the people around the castle. The Jabberwock spent some time blasting, ripping apart, and whiffling the castle and those within it before they could assemble.
They finally assembled and set themselves against the Legendary Tane. And like Bard the Bowman against Smaug, the dice gave them a legendary moment.
The character that made the shot was already legendary to begin with. She pulled off something amazing during the archery contest at the tournament that will never be forgotten. She is viewed as the greatest archer in all the River Kingdoms because of it and this only further increased her legend.
I see. Some of you are going off what is written in its tactics. The tactics section does not supercede the rules of the game. Because a module designer doesn't fully understand the rules doesn't mean the Jabberwock can suddenly fire a Vital Strike eye ray.
This is why I always comb over stat blocks and adjust them. Module designers write modules. I'm sure there are rule editors at Paizo that check stat blocks. But they miss something in almost every module. This is another example of something they missed.
If you want to run it that way, fine by me. I didn't. And even if you run it using the stat block, it's still only one eye ray per round. Which is the same as them firing both eye rays. It's 30d6 either way.
All you have to do to defeat it is take cover behind something large or erect a barrier. Toss up some energy resist spells. And heal through it. Not a hard tactic to beat for a prepared party.
One tactic you should be prepared for is the teleport the melee on top of it to hammer it. If your party coordinates a series of delay actions with a well-timed teleport and mass fly, they will light your Jabberwock up.
Also archers mounted on fast mounts with a healer are dangerous too as they can kite the Jabberwock. If you have a sorcerer or wizard that can shapechange into a fire immune dragon, he can put the healer and archer on his back and kite the Jabberwock at full speed while the archer lights him up.
So best not get to cocky with your Jabberwock. They are tough. But as with all single creatures, a party with the resources of four players with at least two casters can turn your Jabberwock encounter into something trivial.
Tossing out some advice for DMs that will be running this in the future. You know those parties. They always think up something you don't expect.
Sound advice Maddigan. My players should know by now to not expect a "cookie cutter" critter.
For those who lack ideas, I highly recommend the "Mythic" creature template by Rite Publishing here be added on.
^^
@Turin the Mad
Bestow grace of the champion is a cleric spell on the UM that it pretty much lets me smite as a paladin.
On the massive damage: Oh that rule, fort save DC 15 at 16th level? i would roll just for the nat 1.
Oh and casting that spell is pretty much the only meaningful thing the cleric/holy vindicator did in the entire game, oh and he actually prepared the spell for himself (he didn't even read that the target has to be lawful good, which he wasn't).
I see. Some of you are going off what is written in its tactics. The tactics section does not supercede the rules of the game. Because a module designer doesn't fully understand the rules doesn't mean the Jabberwock can suddenly fire a Vital Strike eye ray.
This is why I always comb over stat blocks and adjust them. Module designers write modules. I'm sure there are rule editors at Paizo that check stat blocks. But they miss something in almost every module. This is another example of something they missed.
If you want to run it that way, fine by me. I didn't. And even if you run it using the stat block, it's still only one eye ray per round. Which is the same as them firing both eye rays. It's 30d6 either way.
All you have to do to defeat it is take cover behind something large or erect a barrier. Toss up some energy resist spells. And heal through it. Not a hard tactic to beat for a prepared party.
One tactic you should be prepared for is the teleport the melee on top of it to hammer it. If your party coordinates a series of delay actions with a well-timed teleport and mass fly, they will light your Jabberwock up.
Also archers mounted on fast mounts with a healer are dangerous too as they can kite the Jabberwock. If you have a sorcerer or wizard that can shapechange into a fire immune dragon, he can put the healer and archer on his back and kite the Jabberwock at full speed while the archer lights him up.
So best not get to cocky with your Jabberwock. They are tough. But as with all single creatures, a party with the resources of four players with at least two casters can turn your Jabberwock encounter into something trivial.
Tossing out some advice for DMs that will be running this in the future. You know those parties. They always think up something you don't expect.
Sound advice Maddigan. My players should know by now to not expect a "cookie cutter" critter.
For those who lack ideas, I highly recommend the "Mythic" creature...
Definitely do what you have to do to make it memorable, Turin.
I buffed the Jabberwock up with spels from its master including permanencied Greater Magic Fang on all its attacked. I stuck a mind blank on it. I changed its eye rays from fire to sonic and call the burn vibration.
PCs just got lucky. I can't fault them for that. My strategy was sound. Draw them out of the city by tearing it apart. Kite them using eye rays. Go hide out to heal up. I was planning a very long fight. Just didn't work out that way.
Hopefully your encounter goes in a manner that is memorable and satisfies yourself and your party.
@Turin the Mad
Bestow grace of the champion is a cleric spell on the UM that it pretty much lets me smite as a paladin.
On the massive damage: Oh that rule, fort save DC 15 at 16th level? i would roll just for the nat 1.
Oh and casting that spell is pretty much the only meaningful thing the cleric/holy vindicator did in the entire game, oh and he actually prepared the spell for himself (he didn't even read that the target has to be lawful good, which he wasn't).
kewl, haven't gotten to that part of UM yet. :)
Nat 1s happen.
Definitely do what you have to do to make it memorable, Turin.
I buffed the Jabberwock up with spels from its master including permanencied Greater Magic Fang on all its attacked. I stuck a mind blank on it. I changed its eye rays from fire to sonic and call the burn vibration.
PCs just got lucky. I can't fault them for that. My strategy was sound. Draw them out of the city by tearing it apart. Kite them using eye rays. Go hide out to heal up. I was planning a very long fight. Just didn't work out that way.
Hopefully your encounter goes in a manner that is memorable and satisfies yourself and your party.
That's the idea! ^^
*takes notes*
My group will likely encounter the jabberwock inside thousandbreaths as they gated there after the first two blooms. (Eager to take out Nyrissa, and not seeing the point in waiting for more blooms to happen)
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*takes notes*
My group will likely encounter the jabberwock inside thousandbreaths as they gated there after the first two blooms. (Eager to take out Nyrissa, and not seeing the point in waiting for more blooms to happen)
Man, I can't wait till I can sick the Jabberwock on my pcs. Hopefully it will be real epic.
I wonder, how come so little poeple have played the jabberwock part?
Well i guess the reason is that since the jabberwock is near the end of the game and most once they end the game don't frequent this part of the forums.
I wonder, how come so little poeple have played the jabberwock part?
Well i guess the reason is that since the jabberwock is near the end of the game and most once they end the game don't frequent this part of the forums.
For my own part it's because the players keep dying before we get that close to the end and then they want to switch games after the TPK. We never made it past the Cyclopian Tomb in book three.
For my own part it's because the players keep dying before we get that close to the end and then they want to switch games after the TPK. We never made it past the Cyclopian Tomb in book three.I wonder, how come so little poeple have played the jabberwock part?
Well i guess the reason is that since the jabberwock is near the end of the game and most once they end the game don't frequent this part of the forums.
You had a TPK there?
I admit that this was a close call for us too but the worst that could happen was that the rogue came very close to dying (and if he did we would have to pool 6000gp for his res.), did they died at the final boss?|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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...apperantly the one who wrote (this module) didn't know the rules around vital strike very well
I'm going to say that Richard Pett, whose living is made by writing adventures, and all of the Paizo staff who were used to develop and edit this module know how vital strike works.
By the way, I know some people are saying it would use both rays and get vital strike on that. This is incorrect. It can only make a single attack, as per the feat, so one eye ray instead of two. That's still 30d6 on a +26 touch attack.
And the paladin's ability to smite evil is an absolute (any DR) and absolutes are well absolutes, so i don't think that the DR should apply (remember the paladin can overcome even DR epic if the it's against an evil creature).
We have to disagree here. Like I said, I would start by making the interpretations that I listed above. Jabberwocky, even lesser ones, are epic, legendary, incredibly powerful, and exceedingly rare. Paladins are a dime a dozen. Immovable object versus unstoppable force arguments get to be adjudicated by the GM. This GM says the Jabberwock's DR wins out. I just can't reconcile a 1st level paladin being able to scratch a beast like this just because he's smiting.
More than that, I don't see a mere seventh level spell that every divine caster (except a druid) has access to being able to beat out one of the most powerful defenses of one of the most storied creatures in fantasy gaming and literature.
Like I said, however, this is my interpretation.
Now at the run:
You lost me, at what point would you roll initiative?
Sorry. I made an assumption here, and should know better. I always roll initiative when the two sides are aware of each other. Frankly, I would have rolled initiative when you were in the city and became aware of the Jabberwock. It was told to hunt you and get Briar. It already knows you're there somewhere. As soon as you know it's out there, we would be rolling initiative. If no battlefield were necessary, I'd still be going in initiative order while we maneuvered against each other; if you spent rounds buffing, the Jabberwock would be destroying buildings and killing citizens while hunting you. The moment you each had line of sight on the other, I'd set up the battlefield as I described, starting it 120 feet away (and above) you, unless you were able to manipulate circumstances to you benefit.
As you pointed out, the 10 rounds of "free time" he gave you was a huge mistake. His second mistake was setting it up 60 feet out within easy reach of your party. But his biggest mistake was not recognizing how powerful your group was and what you were capable of. By not thinking of that he turned what should have been an epic encounter into a WTF? thread on the internet. As I said, I hope he learned from this.
I wonder, how come so little poeple have played the jabberwock part?
Well i guess the reason is that since the jabberwock is near the end of the game and most once they end the game don't frequent this part of the forums.
The reason is likely multiple things. My speculation?
1 - People move on to other paths before getting to this, whether due to TPK as someone else stated or due to "Oooh! Shiny new Carrion Crown!" excitement doesn't matter. They move on.
2 - Those who are in this for the long haul haven't gotten here, yet. My group has been playing since August of last year, and we are only just starting the second book. We play twice per month for about 4 hours per game. We have introduced tons of story threads and ideas that were not listed in the AP books, and do more role playing than may be healthy. I suspect most people do not power through these APs at the kind of rate that I have seen some are capable of.
3 - The vast majority of people who play this game don't even know this message board exists. Therefore, they don't post their experiences. Trust me, I'm in a position to know. I can't count how many times I've pointed a customer at these boards and been given a, "Really? How cool!" response.
Hope all this helps you.
My players are just starting Book 4, and I've been excited for this encounter for a year. Honestly, this encounter *should* be epic; on par with the ending of the book, possibly grander. Dragons and liches and Elder Things may be great, but the Jabberwock? Super Cool Points. My players surprise me (V was a pushover), but unless they get VERY lucky (as Maddigan's group), there's no way I'm letting the Tane go down like a punk. I won't completely toss out the rules, but this thing reeks of the Eldest and First World. Rules should be...malleable, around him. (Fire resistance? Chaotic energy swirls around him and he's now doing sonic damage. Hah!) I won't intentionally wipe out the party, but at that level with their resources, I'll have no issue with killing a couple. Cool Factor, and all... :)
As for the original poster's DM: I'd have dome *something* on the fly. More HPs or something to keep him around longer. Just my opinion.
@Drogon
If they intented to write what they did in the jabberwock's tactics and it's not a typo then no they don't know very well the (stupid but existing) limitations of vital strike.
It's not a case of "Immovable object versus unstoppable force", i was wrong about that, it is just a matter of following the rules, the jabberwock has DR the paladin has a DR negator (and so does the fighter although a lesser degree), if you go by the same logic you used before then the paladin's ability (and 2 fighter feats) doesn't work at all.
I can understand what you say about the jabberwock being legendary and such but if they wanted to give him a way to negate the DR negator they should have given it to him, so although i can understand your reasoning giving the jabberwock this ability you increase it's power.
It's not a 7th level spell that every divine caster gets, only clerics, oracles and paladins get it, also remember that being both a LAW and GOOD spell that means that either chaotic OR evil casters (or serve a chaotic or evil deity) don't get access to that spell, in addition it requires the target being LG and not paladin, as you can understand it's neither a common spell nor easily applicable.
Now on your run:
I am kinda confused on how you run suprise rounds with that way of handling initiative but i guess that you run the extra round (if there is of course) in your mind or in secret.
Yes that would have been a great way to run the encounter but don't you think that running the encounter inside the city gives the players an advantage? (assuming they don't really care for some damage being done in the city).
IMO the 10 rounds pre-buff was the biggest mistake, because with the buffs i had running on me even if the battle started at 280ft. and 100ft. above us then again we would have put it out of it's misery in one round.
At least in Maddigan's group it was simple pure luck and it looked cooler IC.
No you are wrong the encounter wasn't a mere WTF, it was a complete turn down, we practically mopped the floor with it's ugly face and then we made weird looking dragonhide armors with it's hide for our druid friends.
I also hope that he learned from it.
Are there really poeple who stop an AP just to start another one?
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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@Drogon
If they intented to write what they did in the jabberwock's tactics and it's not a typo then no they don't know very well the (stupid but existing) limitations of vital strike.
Seeing as it was called out in the tactics, not just the stat block, then multiple people, all game designers/writers/editors, would have had to look at it. I'm going with what's written and trusting they are correct.
It's not a case of "Immovable object versus unstoppable force", i was wrong about that, it is just a matter of following the rules, the jabberwock has DR the paladin has a DR negator (and so does the fighter although a lesser degree), if you go by the same logic you used before then the paladin's ability (and 2 fighter feats) doesn't work at all.
Again, we have to disagree.
I can understand what you say about the jabberwock being legendary and such but if they wanted to give him a way to negate the DR negator they should have given it to him, so although i can understand your reasoning giving the jabberwock this ability you increase it's power.
I don't think so. I think you keep it from dying rapidly to what is obviously not a corner case ability.
It's not a 7th level spell that every divine caster gets, only clerics, oracles and paladins get it
Fair enough. I forgot about Ranger and Inquisitor in my rush to post. Sorry.
, also remember that being both a LAW and GOOD spell that means that either chaotic OR evil casters (or serve a chaotic or evil deity) don't get access to that spell, in addition it requires the target being LG and not paladin, as you can understand it's neither a common spell nor easily applicable.
And is even more niche-y than my initial impression, but still available to an awful lot of people. Why have damage reduction if it's invalidated by such a large segment of the game?
Now on your run:
I am kinda confused on how you run suprise rounds with that way of handling initiative but i guess that you run the extra round (if there is of course) in your mind or in secret.
Yes that would have been a great way to run the encounter but don't you think that running the encounter inside the city gives the players an advantage? (assuming they don't really care for some damage being done in the city).
Surprise rounds are a treasure to be appreciated in my games. When they happen, they're a big deal. Thus, it's pretty hard to get them to happen.
Also, up until three years ago, I ran all my games under OD&D rules. No minis, no battlemaps, no initiative tracker. That style forces you to be aware of the kind of organic play I described, and I learned very well how to make it drama-filled and tense.
This *is* a role playing game, after all. If all I want to do is play a board based combat game, there are lots of options.
And, frankly, the "are they okay with damage to the city/citizens" part is why you would run it like that. How are your players going to handle it when it starts happening? If they don't care, I can't see the kingdom's people standing behind them and saying, "Good job!" At which point, we circle back to the fact that this is a role playing game. With the group of players I have, doing that encounter in the midst of a city would be a massive disadvantage to them. They'd be doing everything in their power to get the combat away from innocents. I want that tension.
IMO the 10 rounds pre-buff was the biggest mistake, because with the buffs i had running on me even if the battle started at 280ft. and 100ft. above us then again we would have put it out of it's misery in one round.
At least in Maddigan's group it was simple pure luck and it looked cooler IC.No you are wrong the encounter wasn't a mere WTF, it was a complete turn down, we practically mopped the floor with it's ugly face and then we made weird looking dragonhide armors with it's hide for our druid friends
Which is sad. Wouldn't you have rather had an epic, 10 round long combat that you just barely squeaked out? You won, you saved the city, you survived to tell the tale and IT WAS AWESOME!
If it had taken a different interpretation of damage reduction, and a trust in the written combat tactics to accomplish that, would you have been okay with that?
If not, then I guess you'll have to have a different kind of discussion with your GM. I hope it works out.
Are there really poeple who stop an AP just to start another one?
There really are. It happens all the time. Often for the reason you used to start this thread: "Well, that was boring." Often for the reason that some of us are picking on: unprepared GMs. Rather than try to fix it, people usually move on.
I applaud you for trying to fix it.
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I really hope that Paizo creates a book for 11-20th lvl game play, because it really does change quite a bit. Some GMs don't go past say 12-13th, and most of the APs end around there. The normal constraints and expectations of how encounters are run and how they play out start to evaporate around this level, and overlooking a small ability of say a huge ancient black dragon might make the encounter a steamroll for the party. The closer you get to 20th, the more the normal "rules" don't apply and the closer the party get to becoming forces of nature.
For my own part it's because the players keep dying before we get that close to the end and then they want to switch games after the TPK. We never made it past the Cyclopian Tomb in book three.I wonder, how come so little poeple have played the jabberwock part?
Well i guess the reason is that since the jabberwock is near the end of the game and most once they end the game don't frequent this part of the forums.You had a TPK there?
I admit that this was a close call for us too but the worst that could happen was that the rogue came very close to dying (and if he did we would have to pool 6000gp for his res.), did they died at the final boss?
They went up there twice, the first time killed half of them (not by the boss, by the piscodaemon), so we had to start those players over and get them back up in XP before they returned. The second time they went through the entire dungeon, but camped for the night right in front of the final boss's door (facepalm) and he came out and killed them all. Actually, that's only part true, he killed one player, but he just paralyzed the rest so he could torture them all to death later.
They camped inside the dungeon???????? Why?????????????
The rogue came pretty close to dying with the piscodaemon.
Remind me, how did the final bose paralyzed them? Our fight with the final boss was quite easy because we had managed our resources very well and when we confronted him our evoker (the previous char of the magus' player) started with a wall of fire 10 ft. away from him (essentially trapping him) and followed it the next turn with another wall of fire 10 ft. away from the first (for good measure), we immidiately fan out when he threw the first fireball at us and then our wizard started blasting him like there was no tomorrow, me and rogue started shooting him in the blind (25% chance to hit find him iirc), from that point on the encounter was pretty much over.
@Drogon
Only two of the four of the party (me and the cleric), the other two wouldn't have too much problem with it.
What tactics are you talking about? The way he started it the jabberwock didn't stand a chance, and the point is if the DM had to resort to house rules (on the fly) to buff a (supposedely) deadly encounter then i think that the problem lies with the design of the encounter, the jabberwock should really have more creatures with him.
Yes DR isn't what it was back in 3.5, now even the flat numerical enchantment bonuses can overcome it, also only in the core book there are two ways (iirc) to overcome DR, two fighter feats and the paladin's smite.
And yes i would want a better encounter but not by making house rules on the fly, giving it a few other combatants would be nice (i am thinking a couple of black dragons would be good), playing it better and not giving us 10 rounds to buff.
Oh by the way we stopped the AP after that but the incident with the jabberwock was just the last drop, the whole AP was just too easy (even with 3 effective characters) and the DM stubbornly refused to make even the slightest adjustments to the way the AP was written (may have been free time issues though).
Well, in light of "stubbornly refuses to adapt the AP to our characters", it's no wonder your group smoked the Jabberwock like a cheap cigar.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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What tactics are you talking about? The way he started it the jabberwock didn't stand a chance, and the point is if the DM had to resort to house rules (on the fly) to buff a (supposedely) deadly encounter then i think that the problem lies with the design of the encounter, the jabberwock should really have more creatures with him.
Your GM didn't get the chance to follow the tactics as written because the thing was dead before it acted. Part of the reason was because of how he started it. But he should have realized what he was up against considering the way you guys were interpreting damage reduction and the way you were playing your characters (very effectively). Realizing that, he needed to figure out a way to enact the tactics that were written in the module, or come up with new ones that would pose an actual challenge for your group. If the designers think they will work, they're likely correct, I've found. They write them up for a reason.
And trust me, done right, the Jabberwock is deadly enough on its own.
But, yes, if not, he should have done what you suggested.
Yes DR isn't what it was back in 3.5, now even the flat numerical enchantment bonuses can overcome it, also only in the core book there are two ways (iirc) to overcome DR, two fighter feats and the paladin's smite.
I never played 3.5, so I would have no clue about this. I do know the DR rules in PFRPG seem weak and easy to overcome. They are relatively meaningless, from what I've seen. Which, I think, lends credence to the thought that I would want to interpret DR/vorpal my way.
And yes i would want a better encounter but not by making house rules on the fly, giving it a few other combatants would be nice (i am thinking a couple of black dragons would be good), playing it better and not giving us 10 rounds to buff.
No one should "house rule on the fly." That's sloppy. Every GM should prepare properly. Part of that is knowing what your party is capable of. He obviously severely underestimated your group, and refused to take into account what you had demonstrated you were capable of.
"Being prepared," by the way, means being prepared for what you're likely to do to his encounter, not simply reading the encounter and knowing where all the numbers are. If he doesn't have some kind of idea of what is going to happen during the encounter with your characters...
by the way we stopped the AP after that but the incident with the jabberwock was just the last drop, the whole AP was just too easy (even with 3 effective characters) and the DM stubbornly refused to make even the slightest adjustments to the way the AP was written (may have been free time issues though).
...this becomes the result.
I'm sorry to hear that you ended up in the "quitting 'cuz we're bored" camp. Hope the next one works out better.
...and the point is if the DM had to resort to house rules (on the fly) to buff a (supposedely) deadly encounter then i think that the problem lies with the design of the encounter, the jabberwock should really have more creatures with him.
Each group is different. Some people min-max to the nth degree, others don't. My group happens to have three veteran players and three newbies without the concept of min-max in their heads. An odd group, to be sure. I'm a fluff person, myself. I have a paladin who wields a two-bladed sword and has a Faerie Dragon familiar. And a horse named Rose. Hey, some people juggle geese...
Also, I might suggest taking a look at the stat blocks of the Iconics given in the Book 5 AP. That's likely the baseline from which the designers develop encounters. I suspect if you had a similar group (15 pt buy, four players, non min-maxed, etc.) the encounter would have been a good deal more difficult. (In fact, I'd be curious to see the encounter played out with those characters, now that I think about it...)
and the DM stubbornly refused to make even the slightest adjustments to the way the AP was written (may have been free time issues though).
While I understand not having free time, that's a per-DM thing. I view the AP as a guideline and try to allow for ad-hoc adjustments as needed, personally.
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They camped inside the dungeon???????? Why?????????????
The rogue came pretty close to dying with the piscodaemon.
Remind me, how did the final bose paralyzed them? Our fight with the final boss was quite easy because we had managed our resources very well and when we confronted him our evoker (the previous char of the magus' player) started with a wall of fire 10 ft. away from him (essentially trapping him) and followed it the next turn with another wall of fire 10 ft. away from the first (for good measure), we immidiately fan out when he threw the first fireball at us and then our wizard started blasting him like there was no tomorrow, me and rogue started shooting him in the blind (25% chance to hit find him iirc), from that point on the encounter was pretty much over.@Drogon
Only two of the four of the party (me and the cleric), the other two wouldn't have too much problem with it.
What tactics are you talking about? The way he started it the jabberwock didn't stand a chance, and the point is if the DM had to resort to house rules (on the fly) to buff a (supposedely) deadly encounter then i think that the problem lies with the design of the encounter, the jabberwock should really have more creatures with him.
Yes DR isn't what it was back in 3.5, now even the flat numerical enchantment bonuses can overcome it, also only in the core book there are two ways (iirc) to overcome DR, two fighter feats and the paladin's smite.And yes i would want a better encounter but not by making house rules on the fly, giving it a few other combatants would be nice (i am thinking a couple of black dragons would be good), playing it better and not giving us 10 rounds to buff.
Oh by the way we stopped the AP after that but the incident with the jabberwock was just the last drop, the whole AP was just too easy (even with 3 effective characters) and the DM stubbornly refused to make even the slightest adjustments to the way the AP was written (may have been free time issues though).
How exactly were you targeting Vordakai through two Walls of Fire? It clearly states in the spell description that they are opaque, therefore unless you are inside of the ring you wouldn't be able to see it unless you were flying above the ring, which isn't the case inside of Vordakai's Tomb. Shooting into a Wall of Fire is ridiculous as any ammunition would just burn up in the flames. Plus Vordakai could have just used Dimension Door to move out of the Walls.
Why exactly did you start this thread, to brag as a player to a community of (mostly) DMs? It sounds to me like the DM of your group made a series of errors that resulted in your party steamrolling through the AP when instead he could have easily used what was available to him to make it rough for your group.
Personally, I'd start looking for another DM. Those unwilling to adapt will surely have major problems. I'd also refrain from referring to your fellow players and/or their characters as 'wastes of space' and inferring that they are ineffectual in the group. Nobody likes to game with braggards, blowhards, or powergamers and it sounds like your group has big egos, especially to come here and bash on a DM behind (likely) his back. If you think you can do better than him, then how about giving it a shot as DM and he as a player?
By the way, taking 3 free actions in the same round, 2 using the same feat, plus a swift action is ridiculous, a mistake on both of your parts. Yours for thinking you could take three combat-related free actions like that in the same round, which I assume is a tactic you used often, and your DM's for not putting the kibosh on that immediately.
Frankly, if you were a player at my table I'd have kicked you out of the group by now for your attitude and the tendency you've demonstrated in this thread imo to argue with everyone for the sake of arguing until they acknowledge your greatness. This game is as much about respect as it is about having fun, for you and for the DM. He doesn't run the games for his health, you know.
Oh and a Hasted 16th lvl Ranger using Rapid Shot with a +3 Holy bow firing dragonbane arrows at a favored enemy would be able to pop off 6 shots in a round (extra attack from Blessing of Fervor does not stack with extra attack from Haste) and even IF all 6 shots hit for max damage, that would still be 228 damage, barring any crits or other spell effects you haven't mentioned.
Bestow Grace of the Champion wouldn't be effective unless your ranger was Lawful Good, as it only affects LG non-paladins. Lastly, smiting is a swift action, but you burned your 1 swift action/round with your casting of instant enemy.
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Oh by the way we stopped the AP after that but the incident with the jabberwock was just the last drop, the whole AP was just too easy (even with 3 effective characters) and the DM stubbornly refused to make even the slightest adjustments to the way the AP was written (may have been free time issues though).
In that case, he should have limited you all to 15 pt buys, core rules only, and no crafting or some other restrictive settings.
Seriously, if you are a GM and have no time to adjust an AP, your characters better be weak, vanilla, and 4 or less members or its a cakewalk. Well, to be fair, some encounters will kill everyone because you happen to be missing some weird spell or component to your group, the rest are a cakewalk.
One GM's opinion: You simply have to make adjustments to the APs, period. Modules you can get by without changing, they are short and non-dependent. But when a party power curve gets ahead of the AP story, for whatever reason from great player synergy to more players than normal to 3rd party power creep classes and equipment, its game over from that point on, and usually it gets progressively worse. Why torment yourself and your group by continuing to beat your head against the wall until you pass out? Even the most "win-oriented" players will get bored in this scenario.
@leo: This sounds like what happened in your game. Perhaps if he had added several keketar proteans of some sort to the mix, it would have been a bit more exciting for your gorup even aside from how he played out the Jabberwocky. This might have forced your group to split up to deal with multiple threats among other things. I am sorry what should have been an epic memorable fight for you all turned into a yawnfest.
This is not meant to be a criticism so much as a suggestion. If you are a GM without the time, motivation, or desire to run an AP in an reactive, progressive manner, you should probably either step down until things change for you or step up and grab the bull by the horns. Otherwise its discouraging for you and your players.
It's damage reduction "can only be bypassed by weapons with the vorpal quality." The fact that the creature's rules write-up calls this out specifically, to me, means that it overrides anything else that may be going on.This is the same 'unstoppable force vs. immovable object' posed by a Paladin tangling with a demilich, who in fact has the same type of DR. By the RAW, Paladin Smite overcomes ANY type of DR...which unfortunately makes the demilich a considerably anticlimactic encounter for the paladin..
There's a demi-lich in an AP of Paizo. I ruled that the DR/epic could in fact not be overwritten by the Paladins smite and doubled its hitpoints. The Paladin still three-shotted it.
Lesson: Paladins are really, really good against undead.
*Wall of text warning*
Well, in light of "stubbornly refuses to adapt the AP to our characters", it's no wonder your group smoked the Jabberwock like a cheap cigar.
As i have said before it might very well been a time schedule issue, i don't know his time table so i can't really comment about the reason he decided to do things the way he did only on the results of what he did.
@DoomCrow
Your post is borderline insultive, please refrain from such activity, i don't think i have insulted you and i ask of you the same thing.
Now where does Vordakai came into the discussion? I was talking about the troll cave/fortress, the piscodaemon was the weird half blooded troll right?
Edit: I think i just made a huge mistake, i was talking about the dungeon at the end of the 2nd book but Robert was talking about Vordakai's dungeon, yes that was a good dungeon and a good final battle. Sorry for my mistake.
The reason i started this thread is to see if other poeple also had an easy way with the jabberwock and i am glad that someone shared his experience and couple more said how they would run it.
I had no reason to be insultive to the player of the cleric, only to his character and most importantly the way he played him during battle and barring that one casting of bestow grace of the champion and one well timed CLW at the 1st level the rest of the game was like he wasn't there, the rest of us would have fared very well on our own (in fact he did for a couple if times that the player couldn't come to the session), that's what i call waste of space/dead weight.
We aren't a party of min-maxers, yes two of us do know how to optimize but we refrain from doing so, in fact after a few levels when we saw how easy things were we tried to make our characters weaker (in terms of abilities/powers/feats etc. selection and actions in combat).
Now on the rules part of your post:
Where in the rules does it state that i can't take 3 combat related free actions and one swift actions in one turn, in addition you don't use quick draw, quick draw modifies one action anyone can take.
Upon reviewing the rules right now we did make one mistake, activating smite evil is a swift action (i thought it was free) and so is activating instant enemy.
I only argued rules, not how one should/must play the game and how to have fun, two very distinct things.
On the nobody likes to game with braggards, blowhards etc. part, i suspect that nobody likes to play with dice cheaters, mutable spell list, diva kind of players and short patient ones but i do play with this player and you know why i don't mind? Because most of the times he doesn't succeed on doing anything IC (whether RP wise or combat wise).
Not that it really matters since i mistake the dungeons but hey discussing tactics is always nice:
We all knew that it had to be in one of 4 specific places (because of how wall of fire was placed) and we were shooting in blind (that's why said 25% chance to hit him). And i think that a +2 arrow (or even a +1) has enough hardness and hit points to survive the damage of passing through two walls of fire.
Anyway i had asked the DM if i could tried it and he gave me the ok.
I am planning on DMing the Rise of the Runelords (using d20pfsrd's convertions for PF) when my group resumes gaming (in October), in fact either i will run the RotRL or the guy who DMed the Kingmaker will run the Carrion Crown.
Oh by the way we stopped the AP after that but the incident with the jabberwock was just the last drop, the whole AP was just too easy (even with 3 effective characters) and the DM stubbornly refused to make even the slightest adjustments to the way the AP was written (may have been free time issues though).In that case, he should have limited you all to 15 pt buys, core rules only, and no crafting or some other restrictive settings.
Seriously, if you are a GM and have no time to adjust an AP, your characters better be weak, vanilla, and 4 or less members or its a cakewalk. Well, to be fair, some encounters will kill everyone because you happen to be missing some weird spell or component to your group, the rest are a cakewalk.
One GM's opinion: You simply have to make adjustments to the APs, period. Modules you can get by without changing, they are short and non-dependent. But when a party power curve gets ahead of the AP story, for whatever reason from great player synergy to more players than normal to 3rd party power creep classes and equipment, its game over from that point on, and usually it gets progressively worse. Why torment yourself and your group by continuing to beat your head against the wall until you pass out? Even the most "win-oriented" players will get bored in this scenario.
@leo: This sounds like what happened in your game. Perhaps if he had added several keketar proteans of some sort to the mix, it would have been a bit more exciting for your gorup even aside from how he played out the Jabberwocky. This might have forced your group to split up to deal with multiple threats among other things. I am sorry what should have been an epic memorable fight for you all turned into a yawnfest.
This is not meant to be a criticism so much as a suggestion. If you are a GM without the time, motivation, or desire to run an AP in an reactive, progressive manner, you should probably either step down until things change for you or step up and grab the...
Well we rolled for stats, 2d6+6. As you can guess we ended up with some pretty crazy stats.
And the game did fall once because of crafting feats but after seeing how much problem those feats cause to Kingmaker and the DM banned them and we re-did our characters with the WBL of 10th level.
@DoomCrow
Edit: I think i just made a huge mistake, i was talking about the dungeon at the end of the 2nd book but Robert was talking about Vordakai's dungeon, yes that was a good dungeon and a good final battle. Sorry for my mistake.
Yes, they camped in the dungeon. They had done it multiple times before and EVERY SINGLE TIME Vordakai showed up to mess with them in their sleep (shaving cream on hands then tickling faces, hands in dishes of warm water, cloudkills in closed spaces... the sort of boyish pranks any 10000 year old cyclops lich would engage in) or I'd send a soul eater out after them. Even after multiple characters nearly died from these night time attacks they still didn't get the message that it wasn't safe to do that. When they were all asleep except for the one guy on watch a fully buffed Vordakai quietly walked out of his room and unloaded everything he could before the party could react effectively. Since all the casters were drained from earlier in the day no one could fight back with spells and the only character with a magical blunt weapon FORGOT HE EVEN HAD IT! Let me repeat that in case it didn't sink in, the character (a dwarven cleric of Torag) with a magical mace FORGOT THAT HE HAD THE ONLY WEAPON THAT WOULD OVERCOME THE LICH'S DAMAGE REDUCTION! The main tank, who was already in bad shape from earlier was easily put down and then all that remained was to reach out with a paralyzing hand and gently tap the rest of PCs into submission. It worked rather well.
Honestly, they got what they deserved. They consistantly made bad decisions, but usually they're able to pull out before it got too bad, this time their luck ran out. Also, only two of the five members of the group are interested in playing the game seriously, so it falls to those two to make all the decisions for everyone and sometimes they aren't thinking clearly because they're carrying all the mental weight.
And that is why they never fought the Jabberwok.
You are absolutely right Robert.