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Not to rain on your parade, but Crossbowman is a pretty terrible archetype mechanically. You are going to have to burn feats on things like Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery and still be behind the curve as far as martial characters dealing damage. You will never be able to add STR to damage the Many Shot feat is never a possibility.
IMO they should have folded Crossbowman into the Sniper Rogue archetype somehow.
If you are deadset on it, though, you might want to look go in the direction of Improved Critical and the critical feat chains.
If you just want a crossbow-themed character, then I think Inquisitor or Rogue would be more interesting to play.
I'm fairly new to pathfinder and am having trouble creating characters I want to make a crossbowman . if any of you can help me start out on this build I would greatly appreciate it human is fine for my build thank you.
I do not think the crossbowman is bad. He gets to add dex to damage later, which is the stat you will boost anyway. And with improved critical you will do way more damage with a crossbow than with a bow. Plus you can shoot alchemical bolts - hmmmm :-)
However, you can always take the standard fighter and the appropriate feats - you will still be a significant threat. And you got enough feats to spare ;-)
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I'm fairly new to pathfinder and am having trouble creating characters I want to make a crossbowman . if any of you can help me start out on this build I would greatly appreciate it human is fine for my build thank you.
I do not think the crossbowman is bad. He gets to add dex to damage later, which is the stat you will boost anyway. And with improved critical you will do way more damage with a crossbow than with a bow. Plus you can shoot alchemical bolts - hmmmm :-)
However, you can always take the standard fighter and the appropriate feats - you will still be a significant threat. And you got enough feats to spare ;-)
Crossbowman only adds DEX to damage as a readied action, half DEX bonus at 3rd level and full bonus at 11th, which means it doesn't apply to full attacks.
And I'd like to see the math on a 10% boost in crit threat range making the Crossbow do "way more" damage than a bowman who is firing more arrows (Many Shot) and adding STR damage to each one, and whose crit multiplier is x3.
And the Fighter does not have feats to spare. Feats are what the Fighter has going for him and they have to be chosen wisely. The crossbowman wastes them compared to other Fighters.
The crossbow is a failure as a Fighter's main weapon.
Players should have fun and go with their imagination, but Crossbowman is going to be frustrating from a mechanical standpoint.
I'm fairly new to pathfinder and am having trouble creating characters I want to make a crossbowman . if any of you can help me start out on this build I would greatly appreciate it human is fine for my build thank you.
OK, here's a very quickly drawn up fighter (crossbowman). Assumed human and 15 point-buy:
Str 14Dex 16 + 2 racial = 18 -> all further level boosts go here
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8
Skill points: 2 + 1 human +1 favored class = 4 per level
Put them into perception, acrobatics, then whatever you like
Are you allowed 2 start traits? If yes, you might want to take indomitable faith (+1 will) and reactionary (+2 initiative).
Your equipment should focus on light armor (getting elven chain later, then have it enchanted) and making your crossbow as bad-ass as possible (enhancement bonuses up to +5 in the end).
Get yourself a finessable weapon to make maximum use of that high dex, or just use unarmed strikes (see below). Also get an enchanted buckler - you can use it without penalty while shooting a crossbow :-) Stat boosters and cloaks of resistance are your best friends, as are rings of protection and any other kind of armor-boosting equipment.
Feats build-up:
1 point-blank shot
1h precise shot
1b rapid reload
2b improved unarmed strike
3 rapid shot
4b deadly aim
5 improved iron will
6b weapon finesse
7 nimble moves
8b weapon focus light crossbow
9 weapon specialization light crossbow
10b two-weapon fighting OR clustered shots (ultimate combat)
11 improved critical light crossbow
12b power attack
13 greater weapon specialization light crossbow
14b improved precise shot
15 greater improved iron will
16b combat reflexes
17 ... whatever you want :-)
You can juggle these feats around a bit. Main benefits here:
- With unarmed strike you threaten 5' even when using your crossbow and can simply smack them.
- I would suggest being able to also do melee decently. Therefore I recommend weapon finesse and power attack. Drop them if you do not want that.
- Nimble moves will allow you to take 5' steps away even in difficult terrain - always helpful to get out of threatening range
- If you take two-weapon fighting you can shoot two light crossbows with a total of a -4 penalties on attack. This is nice, but probably clustered shots is better (overcome DR more easily).
So much for a first suggetion :-)
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Remember, Improved Critical gives crossbows a way greater boost than it does for bows.
No, it doesn't. 19-20/x2 grants the same bonus on average damage as 20/x3. I usually prefer a greater threat range to a higher multiplier since it's more reliable and x3 or x4 multipliers have the habit of only showing up when the opponent is low on hit points anyway. At least in my campaigns.
I'd recommend anyone interested in a ranged attacker that's not an archer to take a look at the pistolero gunslinger.
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Remember, Improved Critical gives crossbows a way greater boost than it does for bows.No, it doesn't. 19-20/x2 grants the same bonus on average damage as 20/x3. I usually prefer a greater threat range to a higher multiplier since it's more reliable and x3 or x4 multipliers have the habit of only showing up when the opponent is low on hit points anyway. At least in my campaigns.
I'd recommend anyone interested in a ranged attacker that's not an archer to take a look at the pistolero gunslinger.
Pathfinder loves Critical Feats, and you want to crit more often with them.
There's no way that an additional 10% chance at crit threat makes up for the crossbow being thoroughly outclassed by the bow at every level.
I disagree. Critical feats were mentioned, these should definitely be incorporated into the sample build above. With improved critical you threaten 20% of the time on a crossbow, so you basically get 1 crit every round on average once you have that 4th attack and rapid shot.
Also, there are alchemical bolts (acid - hello Mr. Troll!) but not alchemical arrows.
The bow is a classic and well-supported weapon, I agree. However, crossbows are cool and finally viable with Pathfinder IMO :-)
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There's no way that an additional 10% chance at crit threat makes up for the crossbow being thoroughly outclassed by the bow at every level.I disagree. Critical feats were mentioned, these should definitely be incorporated into the sample build above. With improved critical you threaten 20% of the time on a crossbow, so you basically get 1 crit every round on average once you have that 4th attack and rapid shot.
Also, there are alchemical bolts (acid - hello Mr. Troll!) but not alchemical arrows.
The bow is a classic and well-supported weapon, I agree. However, crossbows are cool and finally viable with Pathfinder IMO :-)
By that reasoning it would be every fifth roll, not fourth, and with your last iterative attack being at nowhere near your highest attack bonus, rolling a 17 or 18 might not even help at that level.
Never mind actually confirming the critical.
You're imagining the best (though few) possibilities for the Crossbowman but ignoring the fact that he is going to lag behind most if not all other Fighters on the way to being high level, where he gets his crit feats, while being blown away by the Archer. It's not even close, really. If you want to play a crossbow-wielding guy, fine, have fun -- really. But be prepared to be mechanically unspectacular compared to all the other martial types.
I disagree. Critical feats were mentioned, these should definitely be incorporated into the sample build above. With improved critical you threaten 20% of the time on a crossbow, so you basically get 1 crit every round on average once you have that 4th attack and rapid shot.Also, there are alchemical bolts (acid - hello Mr. Troll!) but not alchemical arrows.
The bow is a classic and well-supported weapon, I agree. However, crossbows are cool and finally viable with Pathfinder IMO :-)By that reasoning it would be every fifth roll, not fourth, and with your last iterative attack being at nowhere near your highest attack bonus, rolling a 17 or 18 might not even help at that level.
That's why I wrote "once you have that 4th attack and rapid shot" and "threaten 20% of the time" above. Yes, it is every 5th shot, but it is not necessarily your last one. So yes, you will threaten more often, most likely with something like an attack bonus between your 2nd and 3rd attack, probably even more like between your 1st and 2nd attack (due to haste and rapid shot).
Never mind actually confirming the critical.
That's what critical focus is for. Those +4 on the confirmation roll really do help :-)
And not having the strength bonus on the damage roll does not really make a difference IMO. You can focus more on DEX this way, and most of your damage would come from magic weapon, fighter bonuses, weapon specialization and deadly aim anyway. The difference between the "mighty" bow and the crossbow is more than offset with the realistic chance to do a critical hit AND impose nasty status conditions (blinded etc.). That's why I mentioned that the critical feats should be incorporated in the build above - they are worth it!
You're imagining the best (though few) possibilities for the Crossbowman but ignoring the fact that he is going to lag behind most if not all other Fighters on the way to being high level, where he gets his crit feats, while being blown away by the Archer. It's not even close, really. If you want to play a crossbow-wielding guy, fine, have fun -- really. But be prepared to be mechanically unspectacular compared to all the other martial types.
I really disagree here. How about this: You present a 20 level build with the bow and I present one with the crossbow (later this day since I will have to leave until evening)? Then we'll see if this is really true.
A crossbowman has to be played and designed vastly different than a bow-based archer. With the latter, critical hits made no real sense to optimize for, with the former they are viable. And that's probably the reason why Paizo did not further increase the threat range and damage potential of crossbows.Also, you can always take the more powerful crossbows and crossbow mastery :-)
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Who plays at 20th level? You're talking about a theoretical Crossbowman that just shows up at 15th level or so with his critical feats, his one possible saving grace. That's not how people play, usually. By all means, at your next character creation session make a 1st level Crossbowman and enjoy his long journey to Blinding Critical.
If you all want to do a DPR Olympics between Archer and Crossbowman, knock yourself out. It's so not even close I don't see the point.
Only on the internet could this even be a discussion!
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Who plays at 20th level? You're talking about a theoretical Crossbowman that just shows up at 15th level or so with his critical feats, his one possible saving grace. That's not how people play, usually. By all means, at your next character creation session make a 1st level Crossbowman and enjoy his long journey to Blinding Critical.
If you all want to do a DPR Olympics between Archer and Crossbowman, knock yourself out. It's so not even close I don't see the point.
Only on the internet could this even be a discussion!
"Empirical data? NONSENSE! Common folk wisdom trumps math every time!"
Yeah...
Who plays at 20th level? You're talking about a theoretical Crossbowman that just shows up at 15th level or so with his critical feats, his one possible saving grace. That's not how people play, usually. By all means, at your next character creation session make a 1st level Crossbowman and enjoy his long journey to Blinding Critical.
If you all want to do a DPR Olympics between Archer and Crossbowman, knock yourself out. It's so not even close I don't see the point.
Only on the internet could this even be a discussion!
Now this is disappointing. It seems that your opinion is set in stone. If you put up broad claims such as "But be prepared to be mechanically unspectacular compared to all the other martial types" you should be ready to back them up to be taken serious. We can build one at lower level if you wish, 20 level is a standard way to show the maximum damage potential - that's why I suggested it.
I stand by my opinion and advice to the OP: I believe crossbowman are absolutely viable with Pathfinder, also at lower level. They are just different than bow-based archers which is not a bad thing IMO.
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Who plays at 20th level? You're talking about a theoretical Crossbowman that just shows up at 15th level or so with his critical feats, his one possible saving grace. That's not how people play, usually. By all means, at your next character creation session make a 1st level Crossbowman and enjoy his long journey to Blinding Critical.
If you all want to do a DPR Olympics between Archer and Crossbowman, knock yourself out. It's so not even close I don't see the point.
Only on the internet could this even be a discussion!
"Empirical data? NONSENSE! Common folk wisdom trumps math every time!"
Yeah...
What did I just say? Run the DPR Olympics on the Archer and Crossbowman. It won't be close. Everything that helps the crossbow helps the bow, and the crossbow will never add STR damage or have Many Shot. Meanwhile the Crossbowman has to use a feat on Rapid Reload -- and Crossbow Mastery if he wants an additional one point of average damage with the Heavy Crossbow.
Who plays at 20th level? You're talking about a theoretical Crossbowman that just shows up at 15th level or so with his critical feats, his one possible saving grace. That's not how people play, usually. By all means, at your next character creation session make a 1st level Crossbowman and enjoy his long journey to Blinding Critical.
If you all want to do a DPR Olympics between Archer and Crossbowman, knock yourself out. It's so not even close I don't see the point.
Only on the internet could this even be a discussion!
"Empirical data? NONSENSE! Common folk wisdom trumps math every time!"
Yeah...
Reminds me of the one and only epic level game I ever played in. When I told the DM I wanted to play a pure fighter without Tome of Battle classes and spellcasting abilities he advised be several times not to do this, I "would have no chance, fighters are completely inferior to spellcasters at every level". So I build a CON-focused two-weapon fighter. He had more than 300 hitpoints at level 20, DR, fast healing (extra rules by the DM for all plus we used some 3rd party material though I focused on pathfinder stuff) and two-weapon fighting with scimitars and criticals. I *destroyed* his encounters. When I took the first 50hp damage in one beat, 120 that total round, and did not flinch he was surprised. When I destroyed his magic-immune high-DR constructs he was annoyed. And when I was the only one who was able to stand against his tough creations in a direct fight and waste them in a few rounds using pure raw damage he wrote me mails stating my character was "too strong for the rest of the group" - who were all some kind of spellcasters (wizards, clerics, druids...).
I think he knows better now than to say than "fighters are inferior" - but he had to be shown first-hand or he would have never believed it :-)
Who plays at 20th level? You're talking about a theoretical Crossbowman that just shows up at 15th level or so with his critical feats, his one possible saving grace. That's not how people play, usually. By all means, at your next character creation session make a 1st level Crossbowman and enjoy his long journey to Blinding Critical.
If you all want to do a DPR Olympics between Archer and Crossbowman, knock yourself out. It's so not even close I don't see the point.
Only on the internet could this even be a discussion!
"Empirical data? NONSENSE! Common folk wisdom trumps math every time!"
Yeah...
What did I just say? Run the DPR Olympics on the Archer and Crossbowman. It won't be close. Everything that helps the crossbow helps the bow, and the crossbow will never add STR damage or have Many Shot. Meanwhile the Crossbowman has to use a feat on Rapid Reload -- and Crossbow Mastery if he wants an additional one point of average damage with the Heavy Crossbow.
Nobody here disagrees that a crossbowman is different from an archer. I would also agree that there is a different feat tax for both of them. However, you can do vastly different stuff with a crossbow and have the entire critical chain available to you. That is also available to the bow, but it's not really usable there, so I disagree on your statement that "Everything that helps the crossbow helps the bow".There are also some crossbow-specific feats out there now in ultimate combat, and the new critical feats - again - only make sense with the crossbow.
Additionally, the crossbowman archetype - which is not the only viable way to build a crossbow-based fighter - is a great sniper and readied shooter. A spellcaster opposed by him is in *really* big trouble.You have made some broad claims which you are refusing to back up it seems. You can easily correct that though - show me the builds, e.g. at lvl 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20. Then we can see if it is true that a crossbow-based fighter is inferior to all martial classes :-P
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Who plays at 20th level? You're talking about a theoretical Crossbowman that just shows up at 15th level or so with his critical feats, his one possible saving grace. That's not how people play, usually. By all means, at your next character creation session make a 1st level Crossbowman and enjoy his long journey to Blinding Critical.
If you all want to do a DPR Olympics between Archer and Crossbowman, knock yourself out. It's so not even close I don't see the point.
Only on the internet could this even be a discussion!
"Empirical data? NONSENSE! Common folk wisdom trumps math every time!"
Yeah...
What did I just say? Run the DPR Olympics on the Archer and Crossbowman. It won't be close. Everything that helps the crossbow helps the bow, and the crossbow will never add STR damage or have Many Shot. Meanwhile the Crossbowman has to use a feat on Rapid Reload -- and Crossbow Mastery if he wants an additional one point of average damage with the Heavy Crossbow.
That's what I'm gonna do, once I get to my HL :)
What I already see in UC is that x-bowers will benefit greatly from Impact Critical Shot - free trip on a ranged crit, using your confirmation roll? Sweet.
That's what I'm gonna do, once I get to my HL :)Who plays at 20th level? You're talking about a theoretical Crossbowman that just shows up at 15th level or so with his critical feats, his one possible saving grace. That's not how people play, usually. By all means, at your next character creation session make a 1st level Crossbowman and enjoy his long journey to Blinding Critical.
If you all want to do a DPR Olympics between Archer and Crossbowman, knock yourself out. It's so not even close I don't see the point.
Only on the internet could this even be a discussion!
"Empirical data? NONSENSE! Common folk wisdom trumps math every time!"
Yeah...
What did I just say? Run the DPR Olympics on the Archer and Crossbowman. It won't be close. Everything that helps the crossbow helps the bow, and the crossbow will never add STR damage or have Many Shot. Meanwhile the Crossbowman has to use a feat on Rapid Reload -- and Crossbow Mastery if he wants an additional one point of average damage with the Heavy Crossbow.
Cool, looking forward to that :-) I don't have HL and build everything manually, so I am usually slower at that :-(
See you later!
@Sangalor
Why go and take improved unarmed strike? to have attacks of opportunity? spiked gauntlet and spiked armor do better and don't cost you a feat.
@Sangalor
Why go and take improved unarmed strike? to have attacks of opportunity? spiked gauntlet and spiked armor do better and don't cost you a feat.
Exactly. But you are right, you can get spiked gauntlets for that. Spiked armor is not always possible depending on the type of armor - and I imagine sleeping in it might be pretty uncomfortable ;-)
I personally prefer the unarmed strike route since you are always armed this way, not just with gauntlets. And you got more options (gloves of dexterity etc.) left with that. But if I could not spare the feat, improved unarmed strike would be one of the first to dump :-)
Hi, it's late and I didn't have as much time as I hoped for. But I'll post what I have so far - maybe it at least helps the OP, which is the point of this thread after all ;-) I tried to include the most important equipment and not only go for the crossbow. Attack/Damage posted is only for crossbows, though.
I chose the standard fighter mainly because of the nice gloves of dueling from the APG. The main advantage of the crossbowman archetype is the safe shot feature... A ranger with crossbows might also be interesting. Well, here is what I got so far:
Fighter (standard)
Race: Human
PBS 15
Str 10
Dex 16 + 2 racial = 18 -> all further level boosts go here
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8
Feats
1h point-blank shot
1 precise shot
1b rapid reload
2b rapid shot
3 crossbow mastery
4b weapon focus crossbow
5 weapon specialization crossbow
6b deadly aim
7 clustered shots (uc) (assumed, alternatively: iron will)
8b Improved critical
9 critical focus
10b impact critical shot (uc)
11 improved precise shot
12b greater weapon specialization
13 sickening critical
14b tiring critical
15 exhausting critical
16b deafening critical
17 critical mastery
18b blinding critical
19 staggering critical
20b stunning critical
Recommended traits: indomitable faith, reactionary
WBL assumed per level:
1) 175
5) 10500
10) 62000
15) 240000
20) 880000
Level 1
*Equipment
Heavy crossbow - 50
crossbow bolts 50 - 5
Sword, short - 10
Buckler - 15
Studded leather armor - 25
*total 105gp, 70gp left for other equipment
*AC/Touch/FF 3+1+4+10=18 / 14 / 14
*Fort/Ref/Will 3/4/2
*Attack/Damage:
- Single: +1+4=+5/1d10; +6/1d10+1 in 30ft
Level 5
*Equipment
Heavy crossbow +1 - 2350
Buckler +1 - 1165
Breastplate, agile +1 - 1550
Sword, short masterwork - 310
cloak of resistance +1 - 1000
Handy haversack - 2200
Crossbow bolts many ...
*total 8575, 1925gp left
*Weapon training on crossbows -> +1 attack&damage
*AC/Touch/FF 6+2+4+10=22 / 14 / 18
*Fort/Ref/will 6/6/4
*Attack/Damage:
- Single: +5+4+1+1+1=+12 / 1d10+4; +13/1d10+5 in 30ft
- Rapid shot: +10,+10/1d10+4,1d10+4; +11,+11/1d10+5,1d10+5
Level 10
*Equipment
Gloves of dueling (+2 weapon training) 15000
Heavy crossbow +3 - 18350
Elven chain +2 - 9150
Handy haversack - 2200
Buckler +1 - 1165
Sword, short, masterwork -> 310
Handy haversack - 2200
Cloak of resistance +3 - 9000
Efficient quiver - 1800
Bolts: many
*total 59175, 2825gp left
*DEX is now at 20 (+5)
*Weapon training crossbow +2, light blades +1; increased by +2 due to gloves of dueling -> +4,+3
*AC/Touch/FF 8+2+5+10=25 / 15 / 20
*Fort/Ref/Will 11/11/8
*Attack/Damage:
- Single: +10+5+3+3+1=+22/1d10+8; +23/1d10+9 in 30ft
- Single w. deadly aim: +19/1d10+14; +20/1d10+15 in 30ft
- Full attack w. rapid shot: +20,+20,+15/1d10+8,1d10+8,1d10+8; +21,+21,+16/1d10+9,1d10+9,1d10+9 in 30ft
- Full attack w. rapid shot and deadly aim: +17,+17,+12/1d10+14,1d10+14,1d10+14; +18,+18,+13/1d10+15,1d10+15,1d10+15 in 30ft
- Critical chance: 20% -> in a 4 round battle, 12 attacks -> 2 criticals on average
- Critical confirmation +4
- Critical Can additionally bullrush or trip, bonus is +4 due to critical focus
Level 15
later...
Level 20
later...
Skills: into perception first, then acrobatics, then at will
Quick alternative suggestions:
- spiked gauntlet instead of short sword
- dwarven plate instead of elven chain (no acrobatics then)
- exchange STR and WIS - I just prefer a higher will and skill bonus
- iron will probably more useful than clustered shot
Bleeding critical is very good. 2d6 damage per shot that crits that also stacks? Very nice.
That and stunning critical as well as some clustered shots and some impact critical shot to allow for a bull rush on a crit is also nice.
Add the 3 feats in the snap shot line and a little bit of cinnamon, i mean combat reflexes, and you are now also threatening anyone within 15 feet (maybe i misread and it's only 10 total feet of threatening, but still) and have 9+ attack of opportunity per round with a +6 to damage and +6 to crit confirmation rolls at +20 BAB.(You don't need the crit confirm bonu if playing a fighter, but still.)
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Okay, Sangalor, let's talk about your Crossbowman a little bit. First off he is a Fighter with 10 STR, making him useless in melee until he takes Point Blank Mastery or gets Safe Shot at 13th Level (which the Archer gets at 9th). So basically his role in the party is to get off a couple of shots and hope that the enemy doesn't close, at which time his main activity will be hoping the rest of the party wins the battle before he gets chewed up. (And unlike the DEX-based Rogue who has Skills, he has almost nothing else to bring to the table besides, "I shoot at things.")
But how many shots is he getting off? Well, that's interesting when it comes to the crossbowman at low levels. You're going the Heavy X-bow and X-bow Mastery route, which means that you took Rapid Reload: Heavy Crossbow at 1st. Now when you take Rapid Shot at 2nd, it is useless because loading the Heavy X-bow is still a standard action. Your Rapid Shot feat doesn't kick in until you take Mastery at 3rd level. So you are a Fighter who just spent two feats on what costs wielders of other weapons only one, and you had a dead feat at level two. Now if you are just making a 15th level X-bowman out of thin air, this might not matter as much; but if you are actually playing one at low levels, this is a pain in the butt.
And because of Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery, you have had to start your 15pt-buy X-bowman with 14 WIS and 10 STR because Iron Will is out of the question, and you are a feat behind the Archer who will be taking Many Shot at level 6 (and doubling the damage on his first shot) when you are still taking Deadly Aim -- not that Many Shot will every apply to your crossbowman.
Now, if you are starting a campaign at 12th or 15th level, by all means make a Crossbowman with critical feats and have a blast on the occasions when you threat and confirm a crit, but if you are starting a campaign at 1st level you are going to be disappointed in how feat-taxed your Crossbowman is to not even be able to keep up with the Archers and melee Fighters when it comes to dealing damage. It's nice to have concepts you want to see played out, but the actual game after game crunch is not friendly to the crossbow.
Other notes: This conversation has mostly ignored Archer's combat tricks such as Disarm. I don't think any reasonable judge would allow Gloves of Dueling to apply to x-bows or bows.
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Crossbow is a sucky alternative to a bow - that is why they are simple weapons that are usable by wizards.
It takes more feats to get good, it can't have many shot so will always do less shots, it can't add Str to the attack. The only thing to make up for it is the Improved Crit feat line (which is even more feats for a feat hungry style)
You can make a Crossbowman and he can be good - but you will always suffer Wood envy against the bowman
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That's why you go Light X-bow, not heavy. There, Rapid Shot benefit from the get-go.
In the end, a crossbowman is one extra attack and one feat behind a bowman, but gets more out of Critical feats. (And I'll say that again, Impact Critical Shot from UC is pretty awesome)
Yeah, you can just stick with Light X-bow and you are only one feat behind the Archer and other Fighters. Your range is 30' less than the composite longbowman (more if he is the Archer archetype) but... that kind of range doesn't come up every game.
So you are a Feat behind with a lesser weapon that can never add STR damage to an attack and can never double the damage on the first attack like a bow, BUT... if you stick it out until 11th level or so, you have a 10% greater chance of getting use out of critical feats than a bowman with the same feat selection. 10%. You've selected a markedly inferior weapon so that after who knows how many sessions, if your character lives, he eventually gets a 10% greater chance to get off critical feat effects. Worth it? Not to me.
Now, crossbows are cool, and there are a lot of crossbow-wielding characters to make, but it's a mistake to build a Fighter around this particular weapon imo.
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That's why you go Light X-bow, not heavy. There, Rapid Shot benefit from the get-go.
In the end, a crossbowman is one extra attack and one feat behind a bowman, but gets more out of Critical feats. (And I'll say that again, Impact Critical Shot from UC is pretty awesome)
Yeah, you can just stick with Light X-bow and you are only one feat behind the Archer and other Fighters. Your range is 30' less than the composite longbowman (more if he is the Archer archetype) but... that kind of range doesn't come up every game.
So you are a Feat behind with a lesser weapon that can never add STR damage to an attack and can never double the damage on the first attack like a bow, BUT... if you stick it out until 11th level or so, you have a 10% greater chance of getting use out of critical feats than a bowman with the same feat selection. 10%. You've selected a markedly inferior weapon so that after who knows how many sessions, if your character lives, he eventually gets a 10% greater chance to get off critical feat effects. Worth it? Not to me.
Now, crossbows are cool, and there are a lot of crossbow-wielding characters to make, but it's a mistake to build a Fighter around this particular weapon imo.
Look, I know I'm poor at math, but even that has it's limits.
It's not "10% greater".
A IC bow's chance of threatening a critical is 10% (19-20)
A IC xbow's chance of threatening a critical critical is 20% (17-20)
That's actually 100% greater chance of threatening. :)
And as every WoW player (like me) will tell you, the difference between 10% and 20% is pretty huge over the course of multiple applications of a mechanic.
Of course, your DPR will be behind a bowman - no doubt, and I never argued otherwise. It's just that your chance of doing something crazy with your ranged weapon, such as tripping your opponent at distance or inflicting him a condition that will help your party, is greater. Whatever floats your boat :)
@Kortz:
Now, first of all I want to clarify something: The point of this exercise is not to show that a crossbow-user is the most powerful of all characters, does most of the damage or something. I wanted to see if your broad claim "be prepared to be mechanically unspectacular compared to all the other martial types" was true. I always stated it's about checking if playing one is viable - and from what I've seen so far it is.
I was not finished when I posted last night, and I forgot to add that I would rather use light crossbows, not only at the start but because I prefer it as a matter of style. However, the heavy crossbow gets more interesting once you get to crossbow mastery. So yeah, start with light crossbow, then switch to a higher one later.
I also have yet to see how much difference the STR rating really makes. That is one of the reasons why I included equipment at every of the posted levels: I wanted to see how much is left to purchase belts of strength and such which can be used to push your bonus damage high. Now unless I made some odd choices (please tell me then! :-)) I have not really found that there is much to spare. One thing you could do is move the 14 from wis to str, giving you a +2 - +1 more on average then the heavy crossbow gives you over the composite longbow.
I understand why one can get the idea that the mighty feature of a composite longbow can make a huge difference. There might even be more damage, if that is what matters to you. What I dispute is that it is that much as it might first seem, that the criticals - besides the conditions they can impose - make up for it and even it out.
Also, the 10 in strength is not unusual for a ranged fighter, I have seen many builds with low strength scores. Many melee fighter builds don't have a higher dexterity than 10 either, so I see no point here. And you will still do some damage due to weapon training.
Which brings me to the next point you raised: You said that "I don't think any reasonable judge would allow Gloves of Dueling to apply to x-bows or bows.". I checked the item again, nothing in any way even hints at it being limited to melee. It advances the abstract class feature weapon training - so I say "Every reasonable judge would let it apply to all weapons for which the prerequisites are met, i.e. uses a weapon of a chosen weapon group applies to". That's my reading and how I think the item works according to RAW and RAI. If you can direct me to an official statement or errata clarifying it to work otherwise, I will accept that of course :-)
Manyshot is nice btw, but it is not as great as it is often made out to be. First of all, you roll only once for both arrows, meaning that if you roll badly you also miss with both arrows. Their damage is not multiplied on a critical hit, sneak and similar damage applies only once as does damage reduction. So it is essentially vital strike plus static modifiers during a full attack. Certainly nice, but not nearly as fantastic as many make it out to be.
The point about trick shots is certainly a good one. They are cool. The crossbowman can effectively use some of them with the impact critical shot feat as a bonus and without penalties. A bow user will almost never benefit from it, so it is not really a good feat for him.
Finally I wonder about your statement about the role of the crossbowman. You say he brings nothing to the table "unlike the DEX based rogue" instead of "I shoot at things". Please let us not suddenly compare apples to oranges here. We were talking about efficient archers and crossbow-users. Your fighter archer build will not do much else except of "shoot at things" either. Please present me a rogue build which can compete with the sample fighter I provided. I doubt you will not be able to, simply because he lacks the feats and the extra attack.
@all: Great discussion so far :-) Almost midnight again, off to bed, see you later!
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Am I just being retarded here, but what is the likelihood of using a Heavy Repeating Crossbow?
Couldn't you sub that Exotic Weapon Prof inplace for the improved unarmed doohickey?
Further, don't the other feats work on it as well as the heavy crossbow?
Or, play a half elf and take the ancestral arms trait in place of the adaptability one, and you get it free of charge?
What about taking the "killer" trait, adding +3 to the damage that the HRCB or HCB do when confirmed crit hits?
Please forgive me for this slightly off-topic question, but what is this "mighty" aspect of a bow that everyone keeps mentioning?
As i understood it, a bow adds dex to hit only and a composite bow adds str to damage only.
Does this mighty feature allow you to add both dex to hit and str to damage?
Also where can i find this?
Please forgive me for this slightly off-topic question, but what is this "mighty" aspect of a bow that everyone keeps mentioning?
As i understood it, a bow adds dex to hit only and a composite bow adds str to damage only.
Does this mighty feature allow you to add both dex to hit and str to damage?
Also where can i find this?
"Mighty" is applying a high strength rating to a composite longbow. Essentially, a composite longbow costs 100gp and works like a regular longbow, then you can add 100 to the cost of the bow so that it will apply +1 damage from a Str modifier (ability score permitting). Applying another 100gp in cost (300gp total) will allow it to deal 1d8 + 2 damage. It is just matching to bows ability to your ability in order to apply your Str mod to damage.
"Mighty" is applying a high strength rating to a composite longbow. Essentially, a composite longbow costs 100gp and works like a regular longbow, then you can add 100 to the cost of the bow so that it will apply +1 damage from a Str modifier (ability score permitting). Applying another 100gp in cost (300gp total) will allow it to deal 1d8 + 2 damage. It is just matching to bows ability to your ability in order to apply your Str mod to damage.Please forgive me for this slightly off-topic question, but what is this "mighty" aspect of a bow that everyone keeps mentioning?
As i understood it, a bow adds dex to hit only and a composite bow adds str to damage only.
Does this mighty feature allow you to add both dex to hit and str to damage?
Also where can i find this?
Maybe i am misreading this, but even the srd states
Description: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow.
It says nothing about it applying to to hit rolls. I was thinking that this was also a major change that went from older rules to the newer Pathfinder rules.
Am i mistaken?
Maybe i am misreading this, but even the srd statesDescription: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow.
It says nothing about it applying to to hit rolls. I was thinking that this was also a major change that went from older rules to the newer Pathfinder rules.
Am i mistaken?
Yes you only apply Str to damage due to the composite feature and Dex to hit just like a normal bow.
Yes you only apply Str to damage due to the composite feature and Dex to hit just like a normal bow.
Maybe i am misreading this, but even the srd statesDescription: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow.
It says nothing about it applying to to hit rolls. I was thinking that this was also a major change that went from older rules to the newer Pathfinder rules.
Am i mistaken?
Great catch, for some reason i kept thinking it was an either or sort of thing. Either dex to hit for normal bows or str to damage for composite bows, not both.
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Thing is, that 1 arrow from Many Shot you mentioned at lvl 6 is doing 1d8+8(or +12 for Ranger and FE. Based on 18 Str as that is what the builds made tend to go with) each round that it hits, which is pretty big increase(more if magical too).
As for the increased crit of the Crossbow, it is nice, 100% more crit chance than the bow, but that actually equates to 10% more chance of critting. While in WoW 10% is a big difference, that is because you are spamming attacks constantly and rapidly (hence DPS rather than DPR) whereas in a tabletop game it is very posible you won't even see a crit in an entire session (even with 17-20 chance), obviously statistically you should, but the reality is that rolling never really works like that.
Crossbow is something different and it is viable, however I would not want to start a crossbowman at lvl 1, I would onloy ever do it if I was starting a campaign at a higher lvl, otherwise you have a LONG time waiting to be good
Thing is, that 1 arrow from Many Shot you mentioned at lvl 6 is doing 1d8+8(or +12 for Ranger and FE. Based on 18 Str as that is what the builds made tend to go with) each round that it hits, which is pretty big increase(more if magical too).
It certainly makes a difference. I just do not think it is that much since it is still basically extra damage (it's not multiplied on critical hits). And you do not roll another time for it, so you simply have one attack with a little more damage.
As for the increased crit of the Crossbow, it is nice, 100% more crit chance than the bow, but that actually equates to 10% more chance of critting. While in WoW 10% is a big difference, that is because you are spamming attacks constantly and rapidly (hence DPS rather than DPR) whereas in a tabletop game it is very posible you won't even see a crit in an entire session (even with 17-20 chance), obviously statistically you should, but the reality is that rolling never really works like that.
If you assume 4 encounters per day with 3.5 rounds per encounter, you have 14 rounds per day. At the various levels (see my sample build above) you would have the following number of attacks and critical threats (just rolls, full attacks, AC hits not taken into consideration here):
level - attacks - critical threats (ct) - ct/encounter - ct/rounds01 - 1 - 01 - 0.25 - 0.07
03 - 2 - 02 - 0.50 - 0.14
06 - 3 - 04 - 1.00 - 0.28
08 - 3 - 08 - 2.00 - 0.57
11 - 4 - 09 - 2.25 - 0.64
16 - 5 - 14 - 3.50 - 1.00
This does not include haste or similar extra attacks which could significantly boost it further. What it shows that you will have a critical threat at least once per encounter at 6th level and once per round starting at level 16. Of course this is highly simplified, you usually would not have full attacks every round in an encounter, but the same would apply to a comparison with bows... Anyway, this is likely not enough to even out manyshot fully, at least not before level 16. However, with enchantments on the weapon such as thundering you can improve it somewhat, and through feats like critical bleed or impact critical shot you get to do interesting stuff.
Crossbow is something different and it is viable, however I would not want to start a crossbowman at lvl 1, I would onloy ever do it if I was starting a campaign at a higher lvl, otherwise you have a LONG time waiting to be good
I do not see a problem playing it from level 1, but it probably is easier to start later (as with many builds). It is definitely viable which is what I wanted check and show. Nice to see that you agree :-)
Am I just being retarded here, but what is the likelihood of using a Heavy Repeating Crossbow?
I am not sure about that. I do not see any real benefit here or do you get more attacks with it?
Couldn't you sub that Exotic Weapon Prof inplace for the improved unarmed doohickey?
I think you are looking at the first build, look further down :-)
Further, don't the other feats work on it as well as the heavy crossbow?
I am not sure what you mean here...
Or, play a half elf and take the ancestral arms trait in place of the adaptability one, and you get it free of charge?
Look at the errata: You are only proficient with one specific weapon, not the type. So it is not like exotic weapon proficiency, so I would not base my character on being proficient with a single weapon. What if it is lost or breaks? No thanks :-)
What about taking the "killer" trait, adding +3 to the damage that the HRCB or HCB do when confirmed crit hits?
Sounds great, might be a good alternative for the reactionary trait I suggested.
@sonny thomas (OP): You have not posted for quite a while. Hopefully the discussion in this thread has helped you. If you have further questions, feel free to ask :-)
I'd really sorely like to see a viable crossbow build, it really bothers me that every ranged fighter uses the same weapon, because it's the only thing that works well. I thought the crossbowman archetype was going to be the answer, it turned out to be one of the weakest printed :(
It's not just the simple crossbows either, even the exotic repeating and double crossbows are inferior to their martial longbow counterparts. I understand that a longbow is kind of iconic, but is there any reason from a game design stance that something that takes more feats to be effective at all should be so strictly inferior?
I've personally been trying for awhile to make the double crossbow work, but this was more or less shut down when I read on the SRD that crossbow mastery lets you reload both as a move action, rendering it essentially worthless for everybody in any situation (Not even an inquisitor with greater bane on an icy double crossbow doing 2d10 + 10d6 is efficient DPR for a full round action, more so since haste doesn't help you in any shape way or form )
Sorry, just kind of infuriated about the one-sidedness of the ranged weapon lineup.