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I am curious why poeple are comparing it to a club?? It's NOT a club
Consider two characters who want to carry a weapon into somewhere they are forbidden.
Character #1 notices that canes are allowed into this place. So he gets a sword cane. He needs to have martial weapon proficiency to use it, of course, and it's expensive, and he'll get in trouble if somebody notices it's actually a sword, but, hey, he's got a weapon in the place where they're forbidden, right? When combat comes, it does 1d6 ×2 damage.
Character #2 notices that canes are allowed into this place. So he gets a sturdy, solid cane that he can bash people with as a club. He can use it with mere simple weapon proficiency, it's not very expensive, and since it's a real cane, he doesn't have to worry about getting in trouble. When combat comes, it does 1d6 ×2 damage.
So, why would anyone bother with a sword cane? They'll be able to do just as much damage with an ordinary cane.
HAH!
I'd assumed for some reason the sword cane was a slashing weapon so much for that joke.
Ironically, I'm pretty sure there's DR/Slashing and DR/Blunt, but I don't think there's any DR/Piercing.
So the sword cane even without the feat and gold cost isn't as good of a weapon as the cane is.
It should get the fighter weapon training bonus for blades, where a club would not. So the fighter has a reason to smuggle one, rather then just smashing people with chairs.
The next question is it a light or heavy blade for weapon groups? As it's not finessable, I'm going to have to assume heavy, although that feels wrong.
A cane is too small and light to be a club. A cane would probably be an improvised club.With respect, I disagree.
As would Ebenezzer Scrooge, Mr. Hyde, and Larry Talbot.
Canes used as clubs are VERY common in popular culture.
So, why would anyone bother with a sword cane? They'll be able to do just as much damage with an ordinary cane.
One does bludgeoning damage... the other does piercing. That's really the core of it. Some people are just more comfortable with a blade than a stick...
Can you use the Bleeding Critical with a blunt weapon?? the idea never came up in a game of ours... but my rogue would take blade any day :)
The only reason the Sword Cane needs is the same as me dualwielding ligth crossbows: It would look great in a movie... ;)
Can you use the Bleeding Critical with a blunt weapon?? the idea never came up in a game of ours... but my rogue would take blade any day :)
Internal bleeding is a lot harder to stop than external bleeding, but if you hit someone the right way, they will do both.
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Yet a purpose built club is going to be much nastier in a real scrap.
See, you're second example - the Indian war club - I think should be a different weapon than a regular club - it's nastier than a piece of wood you find by the side of the road, and there's no way that baby is free. It's name even says "War Club" which seems to up the damage die by one in D&D/Pathfinder parlance.
This points to what the real problem might be in this debate - not the swordcane but the club. I have trouble with the club-as-listed being free. That implies that you can pick up any big stick in any field or forest and have a weapon that's better than a light mace.
IMO, a free club found in the woods ought to be an improvised weapon. "Found" and "improvised" are practically synonymous. How much more "improvised" can you get than a found stick? So a found club is improvised, -4 to hit, until it gets worked by someone with Craft (woodworking) into a balanced weapon, like the war club above or a baseball bat. Try swinging a baseball bat sometime and then a big stick, and see the difference between found wood and crafted wood. Then just imagine trying to throw that stick as a weapon.
If you take the listed club as a purpose built war club, sure, it's going to be nastier than a cane. So maybe a cane-used-as-a-weapon is just 1d4, on par with a dagger. Technically it's improvised since it's being used for something other than it's intended purpose, but maybe reduce the penalty to -2 to hit because it's well suited for this alternative purpose. Ah, now the swordcane looks pretty good. :)
As long as we're looking at Cold Steel canes, there's a slashing model, and a piercing one.
Of course, the slashing one is also a piercing one, but that's true of most of the swords and daggers in RL, but not PF.
Not as good as a "real" sword, but it should at least get the 19-20 crit like other blades.
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There probably should be more low level baddies that are vulnerable to piercing, like some sort of balloon monster . . .
I am glad I read this thread simply for coming across this idea. My next campaign is going to feature evil balloon monsters prominently.
I think it's fairly obvious that every single weapon should be at least as good as every other weapon, if not better. That way, all choices are at a minimum as optimal as every other choice. :)
Ha! Maybe sent by an evil clown?There probably should be more low level baddies that are vulnerable to piercing, like some sort of balloon monster . . .I am glad I read this thread simply for coming across this idea. My next campaign is going to feature evil balloon monsters prominently.
He'd be a caster who summons giant flying amoebas from the plane of air (clown paint optional). Piercing only, because an edged weapon merely knocks them aside. Now you have a use for your sword cane!
Yeah, the sword cane's perception DC is laughable. Any first level commoner has a realistic chance of spotting it. What are the odds going to be against suspicious guards trained to look for things out of the ordinary?
You would never survive a room full of people with this weapon. SOMEONE would spot it.
See, you're second example - the Indian war club - I think should be a different weapon than a regular club - it's nastier than a piece of wood you find by the side of the road, and there's no way that baby is free. It's name even says "War Club" which seems to up the damage die by one in D&D/Pathfinder parlance.
This points to what the real problem might be in this debate - not the swordcane but the club. I have trouble with the club-as-listed being free. That implies that you can pick up any big stick in any field or forest and have a weapon that's better than a light mace.
In 2E there were MULTIPLE clubs. Cheap nothing club that was basic 'CLUB' fof 1d6. War Club of D6+1 and a Great club for 2d4
Basic club is any random tree branch, pool stick or table leg. It even said that repeatedly in the 2E books. It was highly recommended that you spend a proficiency on 'club' so you would essentially never be disarmed.
The only differential I see here is the 'Mere Club' which does piercing and Bludgening... For a game as rules heavy as Pathfinder, I don't see the need to nerf a club.
Edit: OHHH... Actaully, a few of the APs we've run across list MASTERWORK Clubs. THAT"S probably your well weighted optimal bashing sticks that people are talking about.
Regular clubs are just that. Regular.
I think it's fairly obvious that every single weapon should be at least as good as every other weapon, if not better. That way, all choices are at a minimum as optimal as every other choice. :)
I actually agree with you. I think it would be a LOT more realistic that way.... but it would also be a LOT more boring. The 'statistics' with these weapons are fairly innaccurate ANYWAY when you consider the fact that a Club, Sword Cane, Great Axe or Rock all have equal chances to Kill you in one hit.
The Hit point system is problematic. I've seen some games where you have the status of 'healty, wounded, heavily wounded, dead.' And while more realistic it wasn't much fun.
Weapons by the most part are ALL the same. Different cultures all developed swords at different points in their history... but the long double edged piece of steel all served the same purpose. Whether it's called a Longsword, a broadsword, a spartha, etc. ect...
I made a massive project out combining every 2E weapon together in one book along with pictures and stats.... and it amazed how many were simply reduntant.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Yet clubs are free so they aren't purpose built.Yet a purpose built club is going to be much nastier in a real scrap.
And more important they just have different characteristics. For example, the cane isn't going to throw well.
I don't know what makes you think this. Slings are free also, are they not purpose built?
It just means that a person can make one at no cost.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Yet a purpose built club is going to be much nastier in a real scrap.See, you're second example - the Indian war club - I think should be a different weapon than a regular club - it's nastier than a piece of wood you find by the side of the road, and there's no way that baby is free. It's name even says "War Club" which seems to up the damage die by one in D&D/Pathfinder parlance.
I think the cost of zero does not reflect that it is a random stick you find, rather it reflects the idea that the cost is other than monetary. A person using a club might spend three days wandering around in the woods looking for just the exact right piece of wood then spending a bit of time with a knife or rock cleaning it up for use.
I think Guy is correct that the ones in the video were masterwork... but then the cane demo I was replying too was as well :D
The point is it's going to hurt more to get hit by a club than is to get hit by a cane. It has more weight and it's balanced as a weapon, not as a walking stick.
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It just means that a person can make one at no cost.
"a person can make one" = Craft check. No Craft check, then improvised weapon. If you assume someone else is making the Craft check for you, then they seem to be doing it for free. Poor business model. :(
I'd say the same is true for any 0 gp weapon, be it club, sling or quarterstaff - Craft it or pay for it, otherwise, it's improvised.
A cane is too small and light to be a club. A cane would probably be an improvised club.
This.
RAW: I can walk up to a large tree, lay my hand upon it, and spontaneously turn it into a large pile of clubs.
It's as simple as tearing off a branch people. I honestly don't believe there is a such thing as an improvised club.
...ok fine...
A Sword cane is not a club, and would not make a very good club, improvised light weapon at best.
Also the nice 21st century materials used in that fine PIMP stick linkied above aren't really what they are using in downtown Golarion... :)
I agree that the sword cane as written kind of sucks. I like the idea of giving it a 19-20 threat range, it seems like a fair change to me.
As for the club talk, Pathfinder doesn't give a concrete definition of what a club is like-there's just stats, no text. Therefore, arguing whether a cane is like a club is kind of pointless.
EDIT: How's this for a change- make the DC to spot the sword cane equal to the craft check made to produce it (assuming 20 is the base DC for this purpose.)
Also, a sword cane can be poisoned and then concealed- not a bad feature. This goes well with the idea of a lead-lined scabbard posted above, as well, since it blocking detect magic is debatable (handle is still exposed) but the lead lining would definitely block detect poison from finding the poison on a concealed blade.
The more I look at it, the more it looks like they meant to have two different entries for the sword cane; one for the cane scabbard (as a weapon) and one for the sword inside it.
As a "one handed melee" weapon, it can be used with two hands to get 1.5xStr damage. That just feels really weird and awkward to me.
If I rewrote the weapon, I'd do this (note I'd be leaving it as a Martial weapon, it was never exotic):
Light Melee Weapons
Sword cane (sword) .. 1d3 . 1d4 . 18-20/x2 . P
One-handed Melee Weapons
Sword cane (cane) .. 1d4 . 1d6 . 20/x2 . B
Sword hidden inside is DC30 to notice, and DC 15 if handled (to find the proper button/twist to release the blade.
Also, you can "Draw" both parts of the weapon at the same time (like those double weapons in UC) so only one draw action to get both weapons for TWF.
The sword part being light automatically makes it finessable. I put it a damage die lower, but a higher crit range, because it's like the rapier only shorter. 1d6 19-20/x2 light weapon is a shortsword... 1d6 18-20/x2 one-handed is a rapier.. and while technically 1d4 18-20/x2 is a kukri, I'm okay with that. ;)
I left the cane part of the sword as martial because it's technically hollow (or has a sword inside), which would leave the thing kind of "off" for the weight of it. Since martial instead of simple just means "harder to land a hit if you aren't trained in using it", it feels right to me.
One thing to note, while I am playing a character in a game currently that is using a sword cane (which is what drew my attention to this thread), as an Oracle of Life, I haven't really used it that much.
In fact.. I think I've used it twice, and one of those times was as an improvised weapon (with it sheathed).
Personally, I'm fine with running with the weapon as it's statted for the current game. I picked it because I'm a Life Oracle with the Lame curse, with a family history of this curse/oracle power happening, so I have an heirloom weapon of the sword cane (the cane is passed to the next in line who picks up the curse, typically after the other one dies).
So yeah, story reason that I burned a trait on.
A cane is too small and light to be a club. A cane would probably be an improvised club.This.
Repeatedly proven false, move along.
A cane is too small and light to be a club. A cane would probably be an improvised club.This.
A sword cane weighs more than a club (4lb vs 3lb). This indicates that a club is not some much larger, more bulky weapon than a cane.
"Benefit: You can draw the blade from the cane as a swift action (or a free action if you have the Quick Draw feat). An observer must make a DC 20 Perception check to realize an undrawn sword cane is a weapon rather than a walking stick; the DC decreases to 10 if the observer is able to handle the weapon."perception DC is laughable. Any first level commoner has a realistic chance of spotting it. What are the odds going to be against suspicious guards trained to look for things out of the ordinary?
You would never survive a room full of people with this weapon. SOMEONE would spot it.
You forgot the unspoken part "You can draw the blade from the cane as a swift action if the cane is in hand."
Though none of the "benefit" is worth shafting a bladed weapon by removing the 19-20 range.
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I'd agree that like a quarter staff, you don't just find these weapons on the side of the road. I'd assume that you'd need to put some work into them to turn them into proper weapons but this isn't likely skilled work. A person would need to do some looking as well. You can't use the first stick or twig you see, you'd need to find a piece of wood that's the right size and shape for your purpose. Then you'd probably need to do some basic woodworking to make it functional....
As a kid who grew up in Boy Scouts, I've come across a lot of sticks while walking through the forest. I've got a nice variety of cool walking sticks I've accumulated throughout the years. If you're looking for a quarterstaff, they're not hard to come by. Cut down a decent sized sapling, cut the branches off, viola. If you're looking for a club, then cut a chunk out of that quarterstaff and viola.
There are certain trees that would be better for these types of things than others. Some trees look like they're just asking to be made into walking sticks while others are nice chance finds of cool tree growth. However, spend an hour walking through a deciduous forest and you'll likely find a half dozen or more pieces of wood that will fit your purpose. Will some be better than others? Sure, but that's where you come across "masterwork" clubs and quarterstaves instead of ordinary ones.
As for canes not being useful as clubs, take this moment from American history:
Wikipedia Entry on Senator Charles Sumner
In 1856, South Carolina Representative Preston Brooks severely beat Sumner to the point of breaking a cane over his head, leaving him on the floor of the Senate amid escalating antebellum tensions. After three years of medical treatment and foreign travel, Sumner returned to the Senate as the war began.
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