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Light Melee Weapons
Sword cane (sword) .. 1d3 . 1d4 . 18-20/x2 . POne-handed Melee Weapons
Sword cane (cane) .. 1d4 . 1d6 . 20/x2 . B
So, it's a dagger cane now?
Sword canes as a 1d6 piercing weapon makes sense. They're shorter rapiers with a poor handle grip. Thus, 1d6 x2. If you want better control to get those crits with, then go for a rapier, scimitar, or just a short sword. All three of those have better grips and a slightly longer blade so you can actually fight much better with them. If you'd rather be sneaky with a concealed weapon and have something to set off your devilishly handsome outfit, then carry around a sword cane.
[Edit: You could also just carry the sword cane in addition to your normal weapons in case someone cast peace bond from Ultimate Combat on your usual weapon to prevent you from drawing it. That would still allow you to draw your sword cane if they didn't realize that's what it was.]
[Edit: You could also just carry the sword cane in addition to your normal weapons in case someone cast peace bond from Ultimate Combat on your usual weapon to prevent you from drawing it. That would still allow you to draw your sword cane if they didn't realize that's what it was.]
But it is DC 20 for anyone to recognize the undrawn cane is a weapon. So almost everyone can make that.
But it is DC 20 for anyone to recognize the undrawn cane is a weapon. So almost everyone can make that.[Edit: You could also just carry the sword cane in addition to your normal weapons in case someone cast peace bond from Ultimate Combat on your usual weapon to prevent you from drawing it. That would still allow you to draw your sword cane if they didn't realize that's what it was.]
You are better off hiding a dagger on your person with sleight of hand. They at least have to frisk you to try and find it.
Yeah, I'm not sure why the DC was pegged at 20. I've seen sword canes, and before I knew they was a sword in them, I don't think I could have known at all.
That's not even "5%" of the time... that's "never".
And I wouldn't put myself at a -Wis. ;)
I'd say that unless you were used to looking for hidden weapons, it'd be a fairly tough DC to notice it.
Then again... Perception has range penalties (+1 / 10 feet), and distracted adds +5 DC (so anyone but the guard specifically looking). Also, lighting conditions can add another +2 to +5 depending on how bad it is.
A guard in a brightly lit area will have a fairly easy chance to notice it, especially if he picks it up. Likely better to have a weapon hidden in a Glove of Storing or something.
People at the ball would likely have anywhere from a DC 25 to 30+ to notice it, depending on distance and lighting conditions. Very likely it would never be noticed (1st level people not focused on Perception have no chance at seeing it).
I like the idea of making the DC based on a craft check, too.
I'd be far more happy with it sharing the same stats as a short sword.
Sword canes as a 1d6 piercing weapon makes sense. They're shorter rapiers with a poor handle grip. Thus, 1d6 x2. If you want better control to get those crits with, then go for a rapier, scimitar, or just a short sword. All three of those have better grips and a slightly longer blade so you can actually fight much better with them. If you'd rather be sneaky with a concealed weapon and have something to set off your devilishly handsome outfit, then carry around a sword cane.
I was mostly concerned with making it a light weapon, instead of one-handed. Regardless of the stats, it feels better as a double weapon (cane = club stats without the throwing capability), with the sword being considered a light weapon (giving up strength bonus "potential" for weapon finessing "potential").
I'd be far more happy with it sharing the same stats as a short sword.Sword canes as a 1d6 piercing weapon makes sense. They're shorter rapiers with a poor handle grip. Thus, 1d6 x2. If you want better control to get those crits with, then go for a rapier, scimitar, or just a short sword. All three of those have better grips and a slightly longer blade so you can actually fight much better with them. If you'd rather be sneaky with a concealed weapon and have something to set off your devilishly handsome outfit, then carry around a sword cane.I was mostly concerned with making it a light weapon, instead of one-handed. Regardless of the stats, it feels better as a double weapon (cane = club stats without the throwing capability), with the sword being considered a light weapon (giving up strength bonus "potential" for weapon finessing "potential").
Having seen a sword cane before, how could you come to the conclusion it should be a double weapon? You realize a double weapon is one with two points of attack on opposite ends of the weapon, right?
Walking the halls, looking for assassins, everyone you stumble across who's in the lest bit suspicious of you is going to give you a quick look over, which means that there's between a one and twenty or maybe even a three in twenty chance that they'll spot something odd about you.
Someone glancing you over isn't really looking for a weapon in the cane. I'd consider giving that a +5 "distracted" DC, without even going into the distance and lighting conditions.
Low level NPCs would have to have ranks and a decent Wisdom score to have a chance (rolling a 20) to notice it in those conditions.
If you bump into the spymaster (who's job it is to know what the heck is going on), or even a guard to will grill anything out of the ordinary, you are boned anyways.
Flat DCs are useless against anything that is "level appropriate".
But for getting around general population without raising eyebrows or having people freak out, it's still decent.
But I agree... realistically, the DC should be fairly high.
A question to anyone that actually owns a sword cane.. is it that easy to notice one, even close up?
Having seen a sword cane before, how could you come to the conclusion it should be a double weapon? You realize a double weapon is one with two points of attack on opposite ends of the weapon, right?
Sorry, I forgot that "double weapon" has a specific game term.
What are the "two weapons in one" that are in show-cased in UC? Dual weapons? Whatever.. you know what I mean if you read my original post on this.
*Edit* To avoid confusion: I mean you draw the weapon and now you have the sword in one hand, and the empty cane as a club in the other hand, with one action.
I also like the idea of increasing the DC to spot based on the craft check but ultimately I think there needs to be a flat base check for similar weapons. If every PC had a different spot check based on who crafted their weapon it could get very confusing. Perhaps the DC could be higher for a mastercraft weapons?
Well, craft DCs are flat, but you can add +10 to the DC to modify how you craft it (which results in crafting faster too).
As a complex item, I'd say it'd be a DC 20 (consider a lock is DC 20). Then, the option to have a DC 30 (20 if handled) would be there if we based it on the craft DC.
Basing it on the craft roll would cause the problem you are seeing, definitely. Probably better to avoid that.
Someone glancing you over isn't really looking for a weapon in the cane. I'd consider giving that a +5 "distracted" DC, without even going into the distance and lighting conditions.But for getting around general population without raising eyebrows or having people freak out, it's still decent.
Exactly. I wouldn't even give a random npc a roll to notice... unless he was activley LOOKING for a weapon. If he IS looking for a weapon, then he's got average to above average chance of finding one...
A question to anyone that actually owns a sword cane.. is it that easy to notice one, even close up?
Pretty much. I've seen plenty of canes.. and plenty of sword canes. Granted they're modern 'replica's' and not 'masterwork' quality... but there are usually tell-tale signs of where and how the cane snaps apart.
Good solid canes rarely come apart. If theres' a metal ring about 12 inches from the top of the 'handle'... odds are it comes apart. If it comes apart... theres probably a REASON for it.
In a society where canes are common... theres probably enough 'decrative' canes to make it less obvious. But if you were LOOKING for hidden swords... THATS where you start.
Also I'll remind everyone again that the base of the argument is rooted on the fact that Ezren does have a cane which is listed under his equipment as "Cane (as club)". Now I have no problem with this, it makes for a cool character concept (the old man with his cane) but if a cane can be used as a club, and it would see that I have precedent here, then it makes the sword cane with it's current stats redundant. If the weapon was even slightly improved (by making it equal to a short sword for example) then the reasons for trying to smuggle such a weapon would make perfect sense.
Probably depends on the cane. if you have a 4 foot tall inch thick peice of ash with a brass ball on top.. thats a club. If you have the dainty little half inch diameter peice of pine thats a pool cue. Its just going to break the first time you give it a good thwap. Something that breaks when it hits your head doesn't keep nearly the impact as something that stays in tact. (empirical knowledge)
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After some negotiation with Guy Humual, we figured the best solution would be have it be a 1d6, 19-20 x2 crit, and count as a rapier for the prerequisites for any ability, spell, or feat.
That means it has a better crit range and can use weapon finesse.
Also, masterwork should either double or add +10 to the DC for detecting it as a concealed weapon.
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In the end, it's up to the dm to either allow it or not.
Always.
However, figuring out a balanced and logical suggestion for people who have the same issue is nice. For example, I'd allow this to use Weapon Finesse in my games, because it's just a short rapier and rapiers work with Weapon Finesse even without the other changes.
But back to your topic. I've always felt that discussion is a good thing even if it doesn't alter the thing you're discussing. We could have, after all of this talk, decided that the game was right and left it at that. The challenging of our ideas and viewpoints keeps our skills at debate sharp and ready. Just saying, "You're not developers so it doesn't matter," doesn't help anyone.
Discussion here doesn't make it an official rule, but it does influence popular opinion about how people might want to use those rules in their home game. Who knows, we might influence the developer's outlook on such ideas and lead to a change to the books in a future printing.
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its roleplaying, i agree with the others. Though i can see the point about loosing a feat for it, thats a bit idiotic. However roleplaying, seriously, i have downgraded armor to Parade Armor because i love it, i love the flavor.
If you are so worried then complain when people max out with TWf and scimitars with improved crit, making it what 15+ or 16+ i cannot remember. If you are so worried then complain that everyone is using the scimitar.
Its the best weapon in the game for a fighter.
I always play fighters.
I have never used the scimitar.
On another note i spend more then half my starting gold on useless crap on my equipment list that is so much fun to stare at when in game session.
there are a ton of weapons that are eh, and a few that can be over powered, the point if if everyone worries about the math, the game is no longer fun.
I'm at a total loss as to why people seem to think that a sword that fits inside a cane is inferior to a rapier.
People, if you remove a rapier's guard and put it into a hard sheathe, it's a sword cane. It's pretty obvious that there's a sword in it, but that's only because it's a fracking sword without a guard.
If you were to purposefully make it so that the pommel seamlessly blended with the sheathe, you're done. You have a rapier inside a club.
Hell, it doesn't even have to be a rapier. Look here.
That's a sword cane with a frackin' Katana in it, and yes, the sheathe is solid enough to whack the hell out of someone.
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think the consensus is that without the hilt the sword is off balance and therefor not as easy to wield. I'm no expert on swords but I can understand that argument. This is why I'd be happy with the reduced crit range of 19-20 rather then the 18-20 of the rapier. Currently damage wise they are the same sword, both deal 1d6, which is average for a one handed martial weapon. The big difference is how the game represents the weapons handling and balance: the rapier has not only a high crit range but also the weapon is usable with weapon finesse, but the sword cane not only doesn't have an increased threat rang but also isn't usable with weapon finesse. From a basic rules standpoint it's too weak to be a martial weapon IMO.
See, the thing is, I happen to be an expert on swords. I teach swordwork. I own close to 3 dozen serviceable swords and about twice that in costume and stage pieces. I'm usually not one to get hung up on realism or historical accuracy. (I choreograph fights for stage, I know that when it comes to a narrative, style trumps just about everything)
In this case though, it's just jarring. The arguments for a sword cane to be weaker than a rapier are just plain silly. They all have to do with the lack of a hilt, the shortness of the blade, and or the lack of balance. All of these arguments are just plain wrong.
If a hilt is removed then the sword would be off balance (which is actually not as big an issue as many people seem to think).
If a sword is designed without a hilt in the first place, then the sword is generally better balanced than one with a hilt.
A hilt is a primarily defensive thing. In mechanical terms, it wouldn't reduce your attack, damage or crit to lose it. If anything it would reduce your AC, but since Pathfinder has close to zero defense abilities related to the weapon a person is using, it's basically a moot point.
You can fit a full length, full heft, straightened Katana or standard rapier inside a cane. Even if the blade is narrower and shorter, that still shouldn't reduce it's stats. Mechanically, an Epee, a Foil, a Court Sword and a Rapier are all the same weapon.
Balance mostly has to do with recovery time. It is practically irrelevant when talking about a sword that weighs less than 4 pounds. Anyone that can use it has the strength to compensate for any leverage issues.
To close, a sword cane is-
Historically, a rapier (or whatever) inside a stick.
Realistically, a rapier (or whatever) inside a stick.
Thematically, a rapier (or whatever) inside a stick.
Mechanically, it's lighting a feat on fire for a negative gain. Ridiculous.
Hell, it doesn't even have to be a rapier. Look here.
That's listed as having a blade length of only 28 inches. Just a little over 2 feet.
Now, that might be a particularly short sword cane, but cursory research gives me that short swords (light weapons) tend to be in the ~30 inches or less range, while rapiers tend to be in the 40+ inches range.
To me, that sounds like a smaller blade (less damage). Maybe not 1d4 as I said before, but full rapier stats might be a bit of a reach ;)
I tried searching that same site for other sword canes, and still found another with a blade length of 25 inches. Seems to be around that average shortsword length.
Straight edged "Katana" blades would more likely be Wakizashi or Kodachi in length (shortsword equivalents).
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Thing is, every single one of them is very light. I cannot see how anyone could consider them not usable for Weapon Finesse, at the very least, and the way the handle/grip would work, I can't see using two hands effectively at all (not like a typical longsword).
It really looks like the weapon should be considered a light weapon, and at least shortsword stats.
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As far as I can tell, it's a nobleman's urban rapier. So what I would do is:
1) Increase the cost by 600gp. Bear with me on this. It's obviously a nobleman's weapon, and it should be prestigious to own one. I don't think commoners typically run around with weapons concealed in canes, but you know who I remember in popular culture had one? This guy. The epic and wealthy awesomeness of this weapon should not be sullied by common hands.
2) Keep the stats the exact same as the rapier, but with one caveat. This weapon is always masterwork. That's what we paid 600gp for. We now have a masterwork club, and a masterwork rapier, elegantly concealed inside a cane. Keep the DC the same, as a good bluff check should accompany any attempt to bring this into a weapon-free zone.
As far as I can tell, it's a nobleman's urban rapier. So what I would do is:
1) Increase the cost by 600gp. Bear with me on this. It's obviously a nobleman's weapon, and it should be prestigious to own one. I don't think commoners typically run around with weapons concealed in canes, but you know who I remember in popular culture had one? This guy. The epic and wealthy awesomeness of this weapon should not be sullied by common hands.
2) Keep the stats the exact same as the rapier, but with one caveat. This weapon is always masterwork. That's what we paid 600gp for. We now have a masterwork club, and a masterwork rapier, elegantly concealed inside a cane. Keep the DC the same, as a good bluff check should accompany any attempt to bring this into a weapon-free zone.
I would say the DC 20 should be modified by the wielder's Stealth check. So, it starts at 20, and then you add the stealth check of the person carrying the sword cane. That puts it pretty high up to notice unless you make him hold it up for inspection (dropping it to the base 20) or take it away from him (such as a guard insisting he hand it over for inspection), at which point it drops to 10.
Otherwise, I like your solution. I would add the cost of a base rapier though (600gp is MW x 2, not MW x2 + rapier cost).
EDIT : Actually, keep the one from the book as the 'cheap knockoff' version of the real sword cane. It's the one they sell in the tourist trap stores.
That's listed as having a blade length of only 28 inches. Just a little over 2 feet.Now, that might be a particularly short sword cane, but cursory research gives me that short swords (light weapons) tend to be in the ~30 inches or less range, while rapiers tend to be in the 40+ inches range.
To me, that sounds like a smaller blade (less damage). Maybe not 1d4 as I said before, but full rapier stats might be a bit of a reach ;)
I tried searching that same site for other sword canes, and still found another with a blade length of 25 inches. Seems to be around that average shortsword length.
Straight edged "Katana" blades would more likely be Wakizashi or Kodachi in length (shortsword equivalents)..
Thing is, every single one of them is very light. I cannot see how anyone could consider them not usable for Weapon Finesse, at the very least, and the way the handle/grip would work, I can't see using two hands effectively at all (not like a typical longsword).It really looks like the weapon should be considered a light weapon, and at least shortsword stats.
I'll agree with that. My argument was mostly that a sword cane didn't have to be anything like a rapier, not that you could fit a bastard sword inside a stick. Shortsword stats would still be better than what they currently have, and I completely agree that it should be finessable.
Pardon me if someone has already addressed this issue, but in the detection of the concealed blade section of the entry for sword cane it mentions that "the DC decreases to 10 if the observer is able to handle the weapon": was it ever determined if "handle" means "hold" or "has proficiency with"? The former seems more likely, but it does have that unfortunate double meaning to confuse things.
Not to mention a swordcane is made of metal, thus it has a higher hardness, more hit points and can be made of useful special materials and can be made more resistant to sundering.
Also there are some times you need a point or an blade and a club is probably not going to give you that.
At the end of the day its style over substance but that does not mean it does not have its niche.
Make the club of darkwood. Problem solved. None of those "reasons" provide a counterbalance to being a crappy weapon just because it has a half-assed chance at being hidden from detection.
Pardon me if someone has already addressed this issue, but in the detection of the concealed blade section of the entry for sword cane it mentions that "the DC decreases to 10 if the observer is able to handle the weapon": was it ever determined if "handle" means "hold" or "has proficiency with"? The former seems more likely, but it does have that unfortunate double meaning to confuse things.Well I'd think handle in this instance means to touch and feel the weapon. I'd think that if they meant the other they'd have used the term "proficiency".
I'm inclined to agree. I just hope that in the Ultimate Equipment or in a future errata Paizo uses a word other than "handle" because of that confusing double meaning.
So I was thinking about this the other day, the sword cane is essentially a sword hidden inside a cane, yet the cane itself could be used as a club (which Ezren, the wizard iconic, does). The only real use for the sword cane appears to sneaking it into places disguised as a cane but when you look at their stats:
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Martial Weapon .Cost . .Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical . Range .Weight . Type
Sword cane . . . .45 gp . .1d4 . . .1d6 . . . . ×2 . . . . . — . . .4 lbs . . . .PVs.
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Simple Weapons Cost . .Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical .Range .Weight .Type
Club . . . . . . . . . . — . . . 1d4 . . . 1d6 . . . . . ×2 . . . 10 ft. . 3 lbs. . . . BIt seems that the difference between the two weapons, besides the bludgeoning vs slashing bit, is that the club is cheaper, lighter, and can be thrown. Also as a simple weapon instead of a martial weapon it's probably easier to use. Basically the club is the superior weapon in every way. Quite frankly the sword cane a seems like a devolution. Why go to the trouble of tying to sneak in a sword cane somewhere when a basic club is the superior weapon?
What I would like to see is the sword cane have a 19-20 threat range and usable with weapon finesse. As is the sword cane is a terrible weapon, a joke of a martial weapon, and should only be used by characters as flavor or for story reasons.
I agree that the sword cane looks to be absolute fail :(. Canes can be pretty nasty weapons though without the sword but though, I started a thread (with videos)about using canes as a weapon with (I think) a better version for canes & would love to see feedback