I believe there was something between the magus and the sword cane being one of two weapons he can choose. Perhaps it's custom made for him, not sure though.
Also, not every weapon should be superior to prior ones. Altough I would have liked for it to be superior in some way to the club, I'm fine with it as is, it has more style than the club.
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I just read the description of the sword cane on d20pfsrd.com - there is no mention of using the cane as a club. The description of the wizard Ezren (1st level) does not mention a sword cane. In any case, a wizard would need a feat to use a sword cane effectively.
Does he have/use a sword cane at higher level?
Basically, the sword cane is an inferior version of a sword. You lose efficacy in exchange for disguise. As you said, the primary purpose of the weapon is flavor and story line.
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Also, not every weapon should be superior to prior ones. Altough I would have liked for it to be superior in some way to the club, I'm fine with it as is, it has more style than the club.
It's true that weapons don't always have to be improvements, but we're talking about a sword you hide in a cane being worse than just hitting someone with an ordinary cane. Further, the cane costs nothing, while the sword hidden in a cane is a fairly expensive weapon. That's justifiable given the craftmanship that would go into a well-disguised cane sword, but it's just not realistic that the cane sword is going to do the same amount of damage as an ordinary stick someone found out in the wilderness [0gp cost].
It should, at the very least, have a 19-20 crit range like other swords.
I just read the description of the sword cane on d20pfsrd.com - there is no mention of using the cane as a club. The description of the wizard Ezren (1st level) does not mention a sword cane. In any case, a wizard would need a feat to use a sword cane effectively.
Does he have/use a sword cane at higher level?
Basically, the sword cane is an inferior version of a sword. You lose efficacy in exchange for disguise. As you said, the primary purpose of the weapon is flavor and story line.
A sword cane might not be usable as a club, but an ordinary cane can BE a club. Ezren allegedly uses such a club (I don't have a stat block in front of me).
A club is easier to use (simple vs. martial), just as easy to bring into places as a sword cane, and equivalent in damage (1D6 20/x2). There's no reason to invent and craft a (rather expensive) sword hidden within a big stick when it's only going to be as effective as hitting someone with a big stick in the first place.
What I would like to see is the sword cane have a 19-20 threat range and usable with weapon finesse. As is the sword cane is a terrible weapon, a joke of a martial weapon, and should only be used by characters as flavor or for story reasons.
You answered your own question. If I am playing a bard..do I want to be seen carrying around a club..or a classy cane that doubles as a blade? Not to mention it can be rather challenging to slip a club into, say, the barons exclusive party, as compared to the cane. If your maxing out your character, then there are plenty better weapons..but when the role playing part comes in..you deal with the better weapon biting you in the behind.
As a side note..hitting someone with a cane, is not the same as a club. I would give your typical cane 1d3, 1d4 max for damage, and thats only the most heavy canes.I would rule a typical walking stick/cane would be too light to do lethal damage. If I can break it over my knee, it's not taking out an ogre.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Omelite
Actually it makes a lot of sense, a sword in a cane can't be made optimally for combat, the handle can't stand out, the edge has to be straight and thin.
The club is no simple branch you find on the road, it is pretty expensive for what it is, that means it has an optimal design for what it should do.
Of course all this is my opinion, but it is something that makes sense and explains everything.
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Sword canes are for style and class. Carrying around something a bit more sophisticated than an average weapon.
I LOVE the idea of sword canes... but Pathfinder dropped the ball on them.
The MAIN characters who would use it... would be bards and Rogues. Those trying to blend with high society... or get weapons where they aren't supposed to.
However they need to take a Feat to use it. FAIL. The Sword Cane isn't worth a feat. Feats are way too valuable.
I was able to convince my DM that Sword Canes and Rapiers are essentially the same weapon. Same fighting style.. just a weaker and hidden blade. Now, we've house rule-added "This weapon shares a proficiency with Rapier"
Now the weapon is usable.
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What I would like to see is the sword cane have a 19-20 threat range and usable with weapon finesse.
I would go with this and even offer an offhand shield/parry AC bonus of +1 for the cane/scabbard for a proficient wielder if the decided to use both at the same time. Both would probably be easier to sunder than a standard sword or club.
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Sword canes are for style and class. Carrying around something a bit more sophisticated than an average weapon.
I LOVE the idea of sword canes... but Pathfinder dropped the ball on them.
The MAIN characters who would use it... would be bards and Rogues. Those trying to blend with high society... or get weapons where they aren't supposed to.
However they need to take a Feat to use it. FAIL. The Sword Cane isn't worth a feat. Feats are way too valuable.
I was able to convince my DM that Sword Canes and Rapiers are essentially the same weapon. Same fighting style.. just a weaker and hidden blade. Now, we've house rule-added "This weapon shares a proficiency with Rapier"
Now the weapon is usable.
The problem is that there are a large number of people who do not care for the roleplaying aspect of such a weapon. Rather they generally only care about the min/max aspect of the game.
I just read the description of the sword cane on d20pfsrd.com - there is no mention of using the cane as a club. The description of the wizard Ezren (1st level) does not mention a sword cane. In any case, a wizard would need a feat to use a sword cane effectively.This is my fault, Ezren uses an ordinary cane as a club, I didn't mean to suggest that the sword cane could be used as either (though that would make it slightly more useful), nor did I mean to suggest that Ezren used a sword cane. I was only pointing out that one of Pathfinder's iconics uses a cane as a club so therefor a cane must be equal to club.
If you had catch off guard I would let you hit with the sword cane without drawing it out of the cane.
My point is this: the cane can be used as a club. The sword cane is actually worse in many ways to the club. If you can get your cane into the baron's exclusive party then you could just use that as a weapon instead of a sword cane.
You answered your own question. If I am playing a bard..do I want to be seen carrying around a club..or a classy cane that doubles as a blade? Not to mention it can be rather challenging to slip a club into, say, the barons exclusive party, as compared to the cane.
My point was a cane is generally far lighter and thinner then a club..(a good example is that I really cant see throwing your cane as a ranged weapon for anything more than annoyance). I don't think it was intended that a cane actually be the SAME as a club, or as an effective weapon at all. As far as the iconic..I personally see that as a staff, not a true cane. A small cane perhaps, but it only makes sense, being that a staff is iconic for a wizard.
The MAIN characters who would use it... would be bards and Rogues. Those trying to blend with high society... or get weapons where they aren't supposed to.However they need to take a Feat to use it. FAIL. The Sword Cane isn't worth a feat. Feats are way too valuable.
Guess the houserule at my table and I guess thousands of others... PF dropped a clanger there
A cane is too small and light to be a club. A cane would probably be an improvised club.
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I actually own a couple of sword canes and they're presenting a pretty accurate realism in the way they've got the stats set. For one thing, you can't "use it as a club" because it's hollow and usually not even 2" in diameter. You try to use the cane as a club and it'll shatter around the blade. It doesn't crit as easily because the handle and balance are not as good as a regular sword. The same lack of balance and design limitations is why its a more complicated weapon. (That being said I'd house rule that Bards and Rogues get to use it as their class, it is a stealth weapon)
The sword cane is also one of the two weapons the Magus Archetype Black-Blade can use for it's intelligent weapon.
This is a style weapon.
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I believe that canes vary greatly in thickness and heft throughout history than what we are used to today....
We are picturing little 1" thickness sticks with a really thin blade sheathed inside where I have seen a cane sword in real life that had the blade about 1-1/2" wide at the handle and tapering into a point....the cane/sheathe was roughly 2-1/2" wide and tapered down to about 1" thick at the bottom. It would have made a decent clubbing weapon, if not as nice as a bat.
"Canes" can be of many shapes and sizes....
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No one should ever be forced to buy "style" at the expense of mechanics. That is a false dichotomy, like suggesting you can't be a role-player and a min/maxer.
The longsword has plenty of style (hello iconic weapon) and is one of the best martial weapons around. The rapier has lots of style and good mechanics. The longbow has style and mechanics... but then you get into a whole host of weapons that have style but do not have good mechanics, like the crossbow or sword cane.
I may be extreme but all weapons should be equally effective in power, even if they get there in a different way.
As a house rule, I get to balance by letting a player pick whatever mechanics he wants (within the weapon categories) and "re-skinning" it into their style. Like crossbows? Buy a composite longbow and pretend its a crossbow.
The sword cane is also one of the two weapons the Magus Archetype Black-Blade can use for it's intelligent weapon.
This is a style weapon.
Weird that they allow slashing weapons or rapiers or Sword canes.
The problem is that there are a large number of people who do not care for the roleplaying aspect of such a weapon. Rather they generally only care about the min/max aspect of the game.
That's the problem.
Unfortunately the min/maxers will not, nor SHOULD they be happy with a sword cane. It's not a Min/max weapon.
It's essentially a weaker version of the Rapier. Just like in Real-life. If you want the best possible, go with the rapier :)
If your after style and RP fluff... go with the Sword Cane.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Two points.
The game system places a value on concealable weapons. Weapons that appear to be other things are generally in the next higher weapon category. Agree or disagree, this is part of the design of the weapon.
Some weapons are meant to be a little more rare in the game and are a little more difficult to get. Most people aren't going to take sword canes as a feat but will get access to them via class features, racial traits, or traits.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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A third point.
If you are a swordsman, you use a purpose built sword. A sword cane is a back up weapon which can be concealed for use in a pinch.
While you can argue that it should be a slightly better back up weapon, it shouldn't be competitive with a purpose built weapon in terms of usefulness.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Good points. The problem remains that the sword cane is worse then the weapon it's concealed inside. If a PC can use a cane like a club then the sword cane is less useful then an ordinary cane. I have no problem paying for concealability, I wouldn't expect that the sword cane would be as good as a rapier, but I would expect that it would be at least slightly better then a club.
To be honest, I think the problem there is that a cane shouldn't be considered a club. Much like a a purpose built sword is going to be better than a sword cane, a purpose built club *should* be better than a cane. At some point someone at Paizo wanted to give Ezren a cane he could beat people upside the head with and rather than make it a new weapon (perhaps not throw-able and doing 1d4 damage) they just grabbed the club and used it.
What's worse, a sword cane is a concealed weapon and the guards are going to look at you quite differently then if you were discovered trying to walk into someplace secure with a regular cane.
As to the rarity bit, I think that's partly reflected in the price, these aren't common mass produced weapons, even a cheap sword cane is a work of craftsmanship.
Eh. The price in gold almost never reflects rarity *in play*. By 5th level or so the base cost of the weapon is a triviality and are dwarfed by the enhancement costs and players know this. If you want a weapon to be used less price is almost completely irrelevant.
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It's a roleplay option!
Yes, let's punish the roleplayers by making the stylish options the bad ones.
I wouldn't even call it a weaker version of the rapier. The rapier has a very good threat range, is lighter, cheaper, and is usable with weapon finesse. The sword cane actually doesn't really share any aspects of other swords as most have at least a threat range of 19-20. The closest thing to a sword cane is probably the light mace, The share the same stats. apart from the B vs P, but even then the sword cane costs almost ten times more.
I'm not really talking game terms... The Sword cane is a one handed, 2 edged piercing weapon. Primarily used for duels.
Unfortunately, it's got a thinner blade and the handles are typically awkward for actual combat. It does the same damage as rapier, but is less accurate and combat worthy... hence the lower Crit range.
It's a weaker version of a Rapier, for places where carrying a rapier is frowned upon.
I am curious why poeple are comparing it to a club?? It's NOT a club... The stats are not meant to be used as a club. It's a PIERCING weapon. Nowhere in the stats or text does it say anything about giving an option for beating people with it.
I actually own a couple of sword canes and they're presenting a pretty accurate realism in the way they've got the stats set. For one thing, you can't "use it as a club" because it's hollow and usually not even 2" in diameter. You try to use the cane as a club and it'll shatter around the blade. It doesn't crit as easily because the handle and balance are not as good as a regular sword. The same lack of balance and design limitations is why its a more complicated weapon.
I'd say that's an example of how some weapons aren't very well made. I have two, and both are perfectly serviceable.
The first I bought at a trade show. It's some kind of hardwood, 2/3rds of the length bored out to make the sheath for the sword, with a silver cap on each end (the top cap is where the sword screws into when it sheathes.) It was a prop in a production of Jekyll and Hyde and held up fine for 5 weeks of being banged around during a fight scene night after night. The sheath is actually a much more serviceable weapon than the sword it conceals. It's heavy and very sturdy.
The second one was a custom prop for a rendition of romeo and juliet (Mercutio used the sheath and sword in Florentine style. damn cool). It was made out of a bored out oak table leg that an aluminum pipe was fitted into to add structural support to, and to add that awesome sound when the blade was drawn. The blade was a "court sword" length rapier that, if sharpened, would make a fantastic weapon.
Functionally, there is no difference between a sword cane and a court sword, which was basically just a short rapier. Any decently made sword cane would have a sheath that would make one hell of a club.
The idea of needing to take an exotic weapon proficiency to be able to use it effectively is laughable.
Unfortunately, it's got a thinner blade and the handles are typically awkward for actual combat. It does the same damage as rapier, but is less accurate and combat worthy... hence the lower Crit range.It's a weaker version of a Rapier, for places where carrying a rapier is frowned upon.
I am curious why poeple are comparing it to a club?? It's NOT a club... The stats are not meant to be used as a club. It's a PIERCING weapon. Nowhere in the stats or text does it say anything about giving an option for beating people with it.
People are discussing using it as a club while it is sheathed (while it's a cane) and arguing that, mechanically, it's actually better just to use it as a club than to use it as a sword.
And, mechanically, they have a point.
As to your first point, you are mistaken. It is not a weaker version of a rapier. It's not even thinner. It's just shorter. You can fit a 3/4 inch wide blade in an average cane. That's thicker than a lot of rapiers.
Pathfinder doesn't differentiate between the lengths of a boot knife and a bowie knife. They're both just "daggers". There's no reason that a sword cane would be anything but a rapier in a "disguised" sheath.
Anybody thinking of pre-applied poison? I kinda skimmed the thread, but I didn't see it mentioned. As Ogre pointed out, the concealed items have a higher cost. Sneaking it into the court of the venerable old baron for the devious assassin might outweigh the use of a poisoned dagger.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I actually own a couple of sword canes and they're presenting a pretty accurate realism in the way they've got the stats set. For one thing, you can't "use it as a club" because it's hollow and usually not even 2" in diameter. You try to use the cane as a club and it'll shatter around the blade. It doesn't crit as easily because the handle and balance are not as good as a regular sword. The same lack of balance and design limitations is why its a more complicated weapon.I'd say that's an example of how some weapons aren't very well made. I have two, and both are perfectly serviceable.
The first I bought at a trade show. It's some kind of hardwood, 2/3rds of the length bored out to make the sheath for the sword, with a silver cap on each end (the top cap is where the sword screws into when it sheathes.) It was a prop in a production of Jekyll and Hyde and held up fine for 5 weeks of being banged around during a fight scene night after night. The sheath is actually a much more serviceable weapon than the sword it conceals. It's heavy and very sturdy.
How would the cane compare as a weapon to something more purpose as a bludgeoning weapon? Perhaps a baseball bat with some Iron straps reinforcing it?
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A cane is too small and light to be a club. A cane would probably be an improvised club.
I skipped a lot of the thread, but...
If I were to use a sword cane, I'd check with the GM to see if lining the sheath portion with lead would make it look non-magical.
The problem is that there are a large number of people who do not care for the roleplaying aspect of such a weapon. Rather they generally only care about the min/max aspect of the game.Sword canes are for style and class. Carrying around something a bit more sophisticated than an average weapon.
I LOVE the idea of sword canes... but Pathfinder dropped the ball on them.
The MAIN characters who would use it... would be bards and Rogues. Those trying to blend with high society... or get weapons where they aren't supposed to.
However they need to take a Feat to use it. FAIL. The Sword Cane isn't worth a feat. Feats are way too valuable.
I was able to convince my DM that Sword Canes and Rapiers are essentially the same weapon. Same fighting style.. just a weaker and hidden blade. Now, we've house rule-added "This weapon shares a proficiency with Rapier"
Now the weapon is usable.
Or, you know, just good sense.
A cane is too small and light to be a club. A cane would probably be an improvised club.With respect, I disagree.
unfortunately all those examples are made of polypropylene...
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A cane is too small and light to be a club. A cane would probably be an improvised club.With respect, I disagree.unfortunately all those examples are made of polypropylene...
Canes were regularly described as being used as weapons.
I'm not sure what people think clubs are. Those bulbous things that taper to a handle sized end that are clubs in popular culture?
A cane is too small and light to be a club. A cane would probably be an improvised club.With respect, I disagree.unfortunately all those examples are made of polypropylene...
That just means they are more durable, less likely to break or be sundered. A medieval version would still do equivalent damage.
