I've been feeling very discouraged with the Wizard in Pathfinder.
At low levels, the Wizard is about the same as in 3.5. If you're playing a conjurer, you're casting Grease and Glitterdust, and the power is just about the same.
Haste is still amazing, and you still have Sleet Storm and other options.
Level 4 just plain SUCKS though. Nerfed Polymorph is completely boring. They completely destroyed Solid Fog.
You have ONE spell in that level that I like - black tentacles - but as I go higher in level, I find myself just completely unawed now - at least with the idea of playing a Wizard.
I start to find myself wandering to the Sage Sorcerer - who also gets intelligence as his casting stat - and working out Specialization builds, because honestly at higher levels there's about one spell per level for me (that I've noticed) and using the higher slots for Metamagic just seems like a better idea in a lot of cases...
I think part of the problem is that Treantmonk (Whom I love) has become the absolute status quo when it comes to wizard opinion - and I want to try something other than summoning.
But it seems like he's right. Summoning just seems to be the most effective way to play your character.
I wanted a second opinion though. I know every campaign is different, and I kind of miss having second opinions like Echodork and Dictum Mortuum and especially LogicNinja.
I've been kind of playing around with different builds, and I like the Shadow build for Illusionists, but they suffer from the same problem that Conjurers do, with a dash of Enchantment issues in that a lot of illusion spells that I love offer will saves with no real secondary benefit.
I wanted to look at maybe a Transmuter, but all of the specialization powers are terrible in my opinion...
Unless I'm missing something, which is why I made this thread.
Who's gone against Treantmonk's assertions and made something that was successful in their campaigns?
(And no offense Treantmonk, but you have to admit everyone seems to be building off of you rather than trying their own things. I mean you go to a guide for any other class and they say "Pretty much Treantmonk, but here's a few spells he didn't hit.")
I don't use Treantmonk. No offense treantmonk.
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Necromancers are always fun - debuffing your enemies and then turning the more interesting ones into your new fodder/minions/what-have-you is always fun. Plus moral ambiguity is always interesting to role-play.
Divination specialists can be quite amazing with their bonuses to initiative they can decide entire battles by casting control spells early and deciding what the battle-field is going to look like.
If you're going to enter a campaign where combat consists of battles against masses of mooks (I'm looking at you Serpent's Skull) then Evoker is a great option. People who say evocation doesn't work have never cleared a room full of orcs or assassins with a fire-ball.
Transmuters also get the most interesting spells in the game, shapeshifting is only ONE SMALL aspect of their repetoire. The great thing about Transmutation is the bevy and plethora of utility spells in their school. Not only that but they make amazing buffers, a wizard that makes the rest of his party look good is an under-rated concept, especially if you're the knowledge monkey outside of combat.
Illusion is brilliant for the creative player (a smart illusionist will only rarely give away a will-save to an opponent to disbelieve). It can be dependent on the GM, but for the most part an Illusionist can end fights before they begin. Or for fun and profit can mix and match real spells/summons in with his illusionary ones and really **** with monster's heads.
While I enjoy reading the optimization threads both I and my players have NEVER needed them to run fun or successful characters.
Level 4 just plain SUCKS though. Nerfed Polymorph is completely boring. They completely destroyed Solid Fog.
You have ONE spell in that level that I like - black tentacles - but as I go higher in level, I find myself just completely unawed now - at least with the idea of playing a Wizard.
Wandering Star Motes, Acid Pit, Confusion, Ice Storm and Wall of Ice are all pretty good spells. And that's only the offensive side of the spel list and not even covering spells like Dimension Door.
I wanted to look at maybe a Transmuter, but all of the specialization powers are terrible in my opinion...
The Enhancement sub-school has some pretty good powers, imho.
That being said, I see your point. There are spell levels that are lacking a GOOD spells, especially if you want to focus on a "not-optimized" school.
I'm playing a Wizard right now (yes, a "god wizard", teleportation schoool). I'm only level 1, but since Treantmonk's guide doesn't quite cover my playstyle, I totally expect to use some "off" spells. Though I can't really tell you how this works out in the long run, yet.
But I think playing a Wizard who focuses on Meta Magic might be fun. Level 4 spells don't interest you? How about a Glitterdust that requirse TWO saves per round instead of one (Persistent Spell)?
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You only have to be a full-on wizardwizardwizard if your role in the party is being the one who can deal with the magic stuff, each and every time. If your party is willing to say we don't need perfect battlefield control or SOL every round, then there's less reason to keep your arcane capability pinged to the max.
That's when you can start branching out. I've got a sorcerer that will don armor and rush into combat with his greataxe as often as stand back and blast things. In fact, my party has accepted that his role isn't the battlefield controller, but is more like an odd form of frontliner. And, after all, isn't that what the ever-so-popular gish is all about?
Where am I going with this? Branch out. Find a style of play that suits you, then, if you still want to try out the wizard, build a wizard to do it.
So, let's not think about wizards for the moment. What do you like to play?
Necromancers are always fun - debuffing your enemies and then turning the more interesting ones into your new fodder/minions/what-have-you is always fun. Plus moral ambiguity is always interesting to role-play.
Yeah, I like Necromancy too. Not a fan of the necromancy school powers though.
Channeling sucks for a wizard when you normally would want to dump charisma - so turning undead seems a complete waste since most things later on would resist the DC of the power.
Could replace it with Life, but that's kind of "meh" too (Although in my opinion solid in comparison to the alternative.)
Divination specialists can be quite amazing with their bonuses to initiative they can decide entire battles by casting control spells early and deciding what the battle-field is going to look like.
I took a look at that. Those ARE nice...
It's tempting to go that route. I really don't like Forsight as a 9th level spell, but there are some halfway decent spells lower level.
I really wish that they'd have a book that focused on adding more spells to the Wizard's spell book to be honest. 3.5 the splatbooks gave lots of love to all the schools, I thought.
If you're going to enter a campaign where combat consists of battles against masses of mooks (I'm looking at you Serpent's Skull) then Evoker is a great option. People who say evocation doesn't work have never cleared a room full of orcs or assassins with a fire-ball.
My DMs usually allow non-RAW uses of spells like fireball too. I was in one campaign where we were in a dark room fighting a vampire, and not having anything better to do I tossed 3 fireballs at the wall - the third which blew the wall down, letting in Sunlight that was able to weaken the vampire.
Since this was a "Boss" monster that the DM created, it was what the party needed to affect the monster at all.
I was looking at Admixture and thinking about making a Wizard that exploited Rime Spell metamagic - at least when resistances or immunities didn't apply. I like the idea of that - but got discouraged by the single-mindedness of the school by RAW.
It'd be an easy decision if we still had Force Chain, or Force Ladder, or Thunderclap, or other spells besides the "Hand" spells that Evocation could play with for battlefield control.
Transmuters also get the most interesting spells in the game, shapeshifting is only ONE SMALL aspect of their repetoire. The great thing about Transmutation is the bevy and plethora of utility spells in their school. Not only that but they make amazing buffers, a wizard that makes the rest of his party look good is an under-rated concept, especially if you're the knowledge monkey outside of combat.
I understand this, and there's a good spell every level. I really do hate the school powers though.
Illusion is brilliant for the creative player (a smart illusionist will only rarely give away a will-save to an opponent to disbelieve). It can be dependent on the GM, but for the most part an Illusionist can end fights before they begin. Or for fun and profit can mix and match real spells/summons in with his illusionary ones and really **** with monster's heads.
I love Silent Image, and the whole line. I miss Phantasmal Forces and the whole line. Good ol' second edition.
Actually saved the party last night casting Silent Image with the Bard I'm currently playing.
The big hangup for me on illusion is again the higher level spells. I just don't feel like I have anything to look forward to.
While I enjoy reading the optimization threads both I and my players have NEVER needed them to run fun or successful characters.
I read through them because it's less thick than reading through every entry in the book. They tend to point me in a direction, and give some insight that I might not have thought of before.
It's not that I NEED Treantmonk. Again, I love his work. It's more that I'd like it if there was more than Treantmonk like there was with the 3.5 optimization boards.
I guess my frustration is more that I want different thinking, not single-mindedness - to use that phrase again.
Level 4 just plain SUCKS though. Nerfed Polymorph is completely boring. They completely destroyed Solid Fog.
You have ONE spell in that level that I like - black tentacles - but as I go higher in level, I find myself just completely unawed now - at least with the idea of playing a Wizard.
Wandering Star Motes, Acid Pit, Confusion, Ice Storm and Wall of Ice are all pretty good spells. And that's only the offensive side of the spel list and not even covering spells like Dimension Door.
I wanted to look at maybe a Transmuter, but all of the specialization powers are terrible in my opinion...The Enhancement sub-school has some pretty good powers, imho.
That being said, I see your point. There are spell levels that are lacking a GOOD spells, especially if you want to focus on a "not-optimized" school.
I'm playing a Wizard right now (yes, a "god wizard", teleportation schoool). I'm only level 1, but since Treantmonk's guide doesn't quite cover my playstyle, I totally expect to use some "off" spells. Though I can't really tell you how this works out in the long run, yet.
But I think playing a Wizard who focuses on Meta Magic might be fun. Level 4 spells don't interest you? How about a Glitterdust that requirse TWO saves per round instead of one (Persistent Spell)?
Yeah I know that level 4 has more spells than Black Tentacles. You DO have to "Dump" on two schools as a wizard though, and I guess it might be a mistake to drop Necromancy and miss out on Enervation and dropping enchantment makes me miss out on Confusion.
Dimension Door to me isn't something you can really "Specialize" in since it's mainly defensive. It's nice to have around, but not something I want to spend all my level 4 slots on.
Acid Pit is less exciting when you already have spiked pit.
I guess my complaint about level 4 is that it just doesn't feel like a huge boost anymore - and I'm sure that's more balanced for it to be that way.
I like the Glitterdust recommendation.
You only have to be a full-on wizardwizardwizard if your role in the party is being the one who can deal with the magic stuff, each and every time. If your party is willing to say we don't need perfect battlefield control or SOL every round, then there's less reason to keep your arcane capability pinged to the max.
That's when you can start branching out. I've got a sorcerer that will don armor and rush into combat with his greataxe as often as stand back and blast things. In fact, my party has accepted that his role isn't the battlefield controller, but is more like an odd form of frontliner. And, after all, isn't that what the ever-so-popular gish is all about?
Where am I going with this? Branch out. Find a style of play that suits you, then, if you still want to try out the wizard, build a wizard to do it.
So, let's not think about wizards for the moment. What do you like to play?
I'm seriously considering ideas about "branching out" as I look at other schools besides conjuration.
I'm not sure about Donning Armor - that takes a very long time.
I like playing the hero that has the tricks that no one else has. Everyone always uses the "batman" analogy, but I think it's accurate. I like having a shark spray for when we run into those sharks - a spell or ability for every occasion.
I really like playing the primary caster for this reason. It's also the reason I kind of hate the Sorcerer.
The whole bonded object free spell thing makes the Wizard that much better in Pathfinder - but the spell list feels heavily shaved.
I know it was done for balance reasons, or copyright reasons, or what have you.
Almost everything added in the APG was blasty or more mind-affecting spells for schools that already have a bloat in that matter. UM didn't really add anything to schools at high level that helped the issue where Summoning is really the best spell for the level.
And with that in mind, if you're going to be summoning, they completely obsoleted the Wizard as the primary option for that by adding in the Master Summoner variant.
I know that a Wizard can still be effective without completely optimizing summoning, but it's still a little discouraging when you're a shadow of what you were in 3.5, and theres a fancy Charisma-based class dancing on the one spell that you definitely got love from.
Is this seriously a thread about wizards needing to be more powerful.
About conjuration and/or transmutation needing to be more powerful.
Is this seriously a thread about wizards needing to be more powerful.
About conjuration and/or transmutation needing to be more powerful.
Did I ask for them to be more powerful?
I'm not asking for more power, just more options.
If anything I am asking for every other school to get something to make them compete.
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They all can compete. You yourself said you don't want to give up Enervation or Confusion.
What are you looking for that you're not finding? Be specific. If it's just a general feeling of disinterest in a wizard's options, then I'm afraid I can't help you, and probably no one else can, either.
And if you're looking to be Angel Summoner, I can't help you there, either--stick to Treantmonk.
And seriously, if you don't want to dump on two schools, then don't dump on two schools and be a universalist. If you miss the extra prepared spells... there's a trade-off in everything. Accept the fact that you won't be the best in all situations. That's okay.
The fact is, there's plenty out there, and there aren't multiple ways to become practically perfect in every way. That's a good thing.
I’m currently playing a Wiz 3 Bard 1. The level of Bard was chosen for the skill set to be Face of the Party, (and Leader of the Party) but the bonus to all Knowledge skills is great too.
Specialty in a school doesn’t really mean you have to specialise in that school. I took the Illusion School for the Blinding Ray, which I figure will be useful even at high levels (and the rogue loves me for it). However, my spells selection tends to favour Conjuration, and I took the Augment Summoning feat (yes, I read The guide too).
However, what my wizard does best is Scrolls. He basically invested everything into a Handy Haversack, and the rest of his gold (we started at level 3) went into filling his spell book and writing scrolls. It seems he has a spell for every situation. At level 3 I started with 30 different spells to cast.
We need to go underwater.
No worries, I have a spell for that.
Ouch, there’s someone invisible over here.
Glitterdust.
OMG, the Cleric is unconscious.
It’s okay, I can get him back on his feet.
This DR is killing us at such this level.
Here, have Magic Weapon.
Scrolls are also a great way to get around the 2-slot penalty for spells from prohibited schools.
My point is, the choice of specialty needn’t really limit you beyond the one extra spell it gives you, and the one free spell for your spellbook per level that must be from that school.
Dear KaptainKrunch:
If you are looking for a way to contribute, and also enjoy the wizard, what you need to do is look closely at some spells. Let me give you an example: Magic Jar and a Necromancer
One day I read Magic Jar, and I discovered what was written between the lines: This is THE funnest save-or-die in the game.
- The caster's original body is in spell range of the jar.
- The jar is within spell range of the possessed body.
- The caster's original body is within spell range of the possessed body.
What this means is that, so long as you're within range of the jar (gem), you can battle with total abandon, die, go back to the jar, possess the next loser and so on.
It also means that, so long as you're within range of your body, you need not fear dispelling effects or other things which might end your spell; you go back to your body.
Reminder: No need for LoE between your body and the jar (which could be a gem, say, held by an ally); it can be in the next room, or whatever. Further, you can possess undead, including your own undead if you're a necromancer. This spell lasts 1 hour/CL, so you could have your body being carted around all day by your pet Ogre Zombie (possessed by you), who's carrying the jar sewn inside its skull. If the ogre's destroyed, possess the fool who did it, dig out the jar, and continue your adventures.
When I pondered all this stuff, I realized I have a new favorite level 5 spell. Mix it with spells that hide or protect (or transmute) your body... like Statue.
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Other spells to carefully read and exploit, if you like Illusion:
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A combo for the Transmuter, to get creativity flowing:
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I wanted a second opinion though. I know every campaign is different, and I kind of miss having second opinions like Echodork and Dictum Mortuum and especially LogicNinja.
Today's your lucky day!
Here's my second opinion: you're playing a f#%!ing Wizard in a version of D&D 3.5. Suck up not being *quite* as game-wreckingly powerful as, stop complaining about how there are fewer completely unbalanced spells, and start having fun with spells that don't auto-win the encounter for you.
As a bonus, you might even want to avoid stocking up on all the entire-type-of-problem nullifying utility spells, to give the rest of your party a chance to do stuff!
Christ, dude, that post says something about you, and what it says (that you can't have fun if you think that what you're playing isn't totally optimal) isn't good. You're already a 3.5 Wizard. That should be more than enough for you.
Edit: anyone who uses Magic Jar in a real game should never play tabletop RPGs again.
Today's your lucky day!Here's my second opinion: you're playing a f*+~ing Wizard in a version of D&D 3.5. Suck up not being *quite* as game-wreckingly powerful as, stop complaining about how there are fewer completely unbalanced spells, and start having fun with spells that don't auto-win the encounter for you.
As a bonus, you might even want to avoid stocking up on all the entire-type-of-problem nullifying utility spells, to give the rest of your party a chance to do stuff!
You resumed posting after a three year absence just to say that?
;-)
You resumed posting after a three year absence just to say that?
;-)
Clearly.
Honestly, guys--it's been over ten years since 3E first came out. Shouldn't we be over this "only the most top-tier of top-tier spells for my wizard-god" crap by now?
Edit: anyone who uses Magic Jar in a real game should never play tabletop RPGs again.
Even if they confused the GM (the first time) and went on to trivialize multiple encounters with it?
I've only recently started playing a dedicated spellcaster, but I've so far found it to be far more exciting than playing melee. And even as a spellcaster, I've found myself getting bored when going for an Evocation build.
My favorite spells to use have been: Slow, Haste, Stinking Cloud, Ray of Exhaustion, and Confusion. Suggestion is great when I can pull it off with a trusty Focused Spell wand. My favorite spell in the past, however, has been Aqueous Orb. When that spell works, it's hilarious. I once got an enemy spellcaster 90 feet in the air. By then he was unconscious, so when I dropped him, I had the pleasure of having the DM explain what happened to his body on impact.
The idea though is that you find the spells you enjoy playing, not necessarily the ones that will end combat the fastest. I have never summoned a monster as a wizard. I've played druid and DMed for a druid and find it to be a long-winded process. Yes, it works, but nobody ever enjoys having to wait longer for their turn.
I prefer seeing my teammates' faces when I tell them they now have an extra attack on full-round attacks or that the enemy monsters can only take a standard or move action. Or that the monster is now throwing up in Stinking Cloud and is utterly worthless. Or better yet, debating with my teammates on what I should do with a successful Suggestion or Charm Person.
It depends on your group of course. My current group enjoys cracking jokes, pulling crazy stunts, and trying to use hard-to-pull-off spells, and our DM encourages it. For instance, with permission we Charm Person one another into doing crazy stuff our characters typically wouldn't do. Just for kicks. My character was once Charmed and convinced into trying to open a cursed treasure chest in exchange for sex. We needed what was inside and I was the team rogue, so everyone was cheering me on when I rolled and succeeded. This was followed by impromptu Perform(sex) checks. We got a laugh out of that, as well as seeing my character's reaction when he realized he had been seduced via Charm Person.
Point being: play the spells you're going to have fun with, whether they're incredibly effective or not. This includes taking illusion spells and coming up with ridiculous stuff.
If you're stuck in a min-max group with a strict DM though, and thinking solely about combat effectiveness, spells like Stinking Cloud and Slow can easily help out your group, considering they can hit several monsters are once. Waves of Fatigue followed by Ray of Exhaustion could easily Exhaust your enemies, while Wall spells can help you separate big mobs. A Flaming Sphere can help you do damage as a move action while you use your standard action for other spells. Overall, pay attention to the monsters you're fighting (a lot of big stupid ogres or spellcasters?) and find the spells that target their weak saves. You can't really go wrong with that.
Also, I know you're worried about illusion spells offering no secondary benefit, but remember that you will have the opportunity to use illusion spells that hit multiple enemies at once, so even if your illusion works on one monster, you're still going to be viable in-battle, perhaps even moreso than the fighter that just hit for 18 damage or whatever.
Edit: anyone who uses Magic Jar in a real game should never play tabletop RPGs again.Even if they confused the GM (the first time) and went on to trivialize multiple encounters with it?
Especially then.
Other people who should never play tabletop RPGs again:
-People who can't tell the difference between "abusing game mechanics" or "powerful spells" and "player agency".
-People who can't comprehend that game rules might not be game world physics.
-People who prefer wanking over continuity to actually playing the game.
-Paul. You know why, Paul. You know what you did.
Yeah, I like Necromancy too. Not a fan of the necromancy school powers though.
I don't really see your point here. Who says you must be a necromancer to focus on necromancy spells? If you don't like the school power, just pick another school. Even a Diviner still has 4 spell splots per spell level that he could fill with necromancy spells.
If you like the spells of a school but not its powers, just pick another one, really. Or just be an universalist.
Other people who should never play tabletop RPGs again:
-People who can't tell the difference between "abusing game mechanics" or "powerful spells" and "player agency".
-People who can't comprehend that game rules might not be game world physics.
-People who prefer wanking over continuity to actually playing the game.
-Paul. You know why, Paul. You know what you did.
Well, since I'm not Paul, I'm guessing you mean to pigeonhole me into #1 there.
A spell that's an hours-long effect which can result in many instant victories seems like a "powerful spell", except of course for the glaring vulnerabilities: The abandoned body, and a bad mix of timing & spacing can kill the caster. Proper planning can reduce the risks of these, so is this abuse in your eyes?|
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The spell list stuff reminds me of my son. He'll sit for hours on end, on YouTube, watching other people play video games. Once I snuck out and bought him the game he was watching. He'd said he'd rather watch than play it for himself.
Boggles my mind.
I came to say that Wizards can be a lot of fun because they get access to a special type of loot no one else in the party can use - spellbooks. Any time an enemy wizard falls, the party mage rubs hands together and gleefully paws through the book.
It'd be like a fighter getting new feats.
That's why I love wizards. Sorry if that's now of topic. :-)
I wanted a second opinion though. I know every campaign is different, and I kind of miss having second opinions like Echodork and Dictum Mortuum and especially LogicNinja.Today's your lucky day!
Here's my second opinion: you're playing a f+$#ing Wizard in a version of D&D 3.5. Suck up not being *quite* as game-wreckingly powerful as, stop complaining about how there are fewer completely unbalanced spells, and start having fun with spells that don't auto-win the encounter for you.
As a bonus, you might even want to avoid stocking up on all the entire-type-of-problem nullifying utility spells, to give the rest of your party a chance to do stuff!
Christ, dude, that post says something about you, and what it says (that you can't have fun if you think that what you're playing isn't totally optimal) isn't good. You're already a 3.5 Wizard. That should be more than enough for you.
Edit: anyone who uses Magic Jar in a real game should never play tabletop RPGs again.
Sorry if I come off as a power gamer. I'm sure it comes from complaining about certain spells being nerfed.
Let me talk to the two spells that I mentioned and why I miss they way they were before.
1. Solid Fog - I know it was "Broken" before. It didn't kill anything though. I don't think it would have made me the "Angel Summoner" for the rest of my party. In fact that kind of battlefield control is what my group would have really appreciated me for. Would it trivialize every encounter? Maybe with some tactical planning. I don't see how it would really help against the single big bad monster. I'm fine with a nerf, but now a 3rd level spell pretty much replaces this, which makes the nerf pretty devastating to taking the spell at all.
2. Polymorph - Again, I know it was "broken", but I loved how it was open ended. Phantasmal forces was my favorite spell in Second Ed. similar to how I love Silent Image in 3.5 and Pathfinder. It's because I got to pick. I know I get to pick in Pathfinder too, but I feel more limited - not just because they restrict me to benefits already defined in self shaping spells, but because it's now level 5, and has to be compared to level 5 options now. I am glad that they pretty much left Polymorph Any Object alone.
What I'm really complaining about here is the variety that I used to have in 3.5 for effective but fun spells to use.
I just feel like there are few spells that are effective to have at the higher levels and feel cornered into certain builds.
I totally understand that table-top Role-playing games aren't just about the encounters, but when I'm creating a character, I want to be something that's effective all the way up until we fight a Balor Lord (Whom I just looked up just now to see what his immunities were again, and to my surprise I discovered he's NOT immune to mind-effecting spells, so the sweet saliva of discovery just filled my mouth while my mind wanders toward the possibilities there...)
I'm looking into trying something really daring this time around - I think I might drop Conjuration. I know it's crazy, but now that I know that I could mind-control a Balor with the right build, Enchantment seems a lot less sucky.
I might not though, those pit spells ARE really funny.
Yeah, I like Necromancy too. Not a fan of the necromancy school powers though.I don't really see your point here. Who says you must be a necromancer to focus on necromancy spells? If you don't like the school power, just pick another school. Even a Diviner still has 4 spell splots per spell level that he could fill with necromancy spells.
If you like the spells of a school but not its powers, just pick another one, really. Or just be an universalist.
Yeah, I know.
As a Diviner though I look at how Foresight is my only choice at level 9 for that extra spell slot, and it makes me frown.
All around it's probably better than a universalist though. Free metamagic is nice, but that first level power is almost offensive for how stupid it is.