I love that NPC's have no levels in the campaign guide, but it would be good to know intention of if the characters are legendary or not.
Are there any obvious legendary or epic NPC's?
Tar-Baphon, the Whispering Tyrant, a lich necromancer so powerful he murdered Aroden's herald Arazni.
Nex and Geb were two of the most powerful wizards ever on Golarion, though whether they actually breached 20th level is unclear. It's a pretty good bet, though.
Karzoug the Claimer, Runelord of Greed, was a 20th or so level caster, and he was not the most powerful of the Runelords.
The alchemist who creates the Sun Orchid Elixir is right around 20th level.
Tar-Baphon a.k.a. the Whispering Tyrant is beyond level 20 (and a unique lich who probably gets some extra unniceties).
Nex and Geb, of course, as have been mentioned. Arazni, now that she's not a goddess any more, is "merely" an undead spellcaster. Lich with 20+ levels of wizard.
Baba Yaga is a 20+ witch and nobody knows what kind of creature she is. And her daughter the current queen of Irrisen is epic, too.
Artokus Kirran, creator of the sun orchid elixir, is an alchemist of level 20+
Jatembe, the Old Man, is/was epic. Nobody really knows if he's still alive.
And then there are the Runelords of Thassalion. While Thassalion has been gone these past 10.000 years, all 7 Runelords made arrangements to sit it out. Whether it worked for all of them is something else, but assuming they won't come back would probably be a big, nasty mistake.
Anyway, all 7 Runelords are/were powerful spellcasters, but not all of them were epic. Belimarius (Envy) and Krune (Sloth) were the weakest, as far as I know. They weren't even near epic. Probably somewhere around 15. Karzoug (Greed), Alaznist (Wrath) and Zutha (Gluttony) were the "average" ones, which puts them around 20. Sorshen (Lust) and Xanderghul (Pride) were the most powerful ones. They were probably well beyond 20, somewhere around 25.
I might have confused a couple. Gluttony might have been one of the losers.
|
Spoliers ahead:
Confirmed as epic, unspecified level:
Alaznist, Runelord of Wrath (the third most powerful runelord) is an epic-level evoker. Her CR is an unknown number that is higher than 20.
Arazni, fromer Demigoddess and now lich-wife of Geb is an epic level Wizard. Her CR is an unknown number that is higher than 21.
Artokus Kirran, creator of the Sun Orchid Elixer, is an epic level Alchemist. His CR is an unknown number that is higher than 20.
Baba Yaga is an epic level entity with witch powers. Her CR is an unknown number that is higher than 20.
Elvanna, daughter of Baba Yaga and queen or Irrisen is an epic level Witch. Her CR is an unknown number that is higher than 20.
Geb, ancient rival of Nex, is an epic level Ghost Necromancer. His CR is an unknown number that is higher than 21.
Jakalyn, leader of the Red Mantis (excluding the demigod itself), is an epic level Cleric of Achaekek / Rad Mantis Assassin. Her CR is an unknown number that is higher than 19.
Old Man Jatembe, the first great human wizard from the Mwangi Expanse, is an epic level Wizard. His CR is an unknown number that is higher than 20.
Kortash Khain, leader of the underground Ghoul-empire of Nemret Noktoria, is an epic level Cleric of Kabriri / Sorceror / Mystic Theurge. His CR is an unknown number that is higher than 21. Note: His CR was presented as 23 in an earlier 3.5 product.
Nex, the archwizard who created the nation that bears his name and multiple demiplanes, is an epic level Wizard. His CR is an unknown number that is higher than 20.
Sorshen, Runelord of Lust (the second most powerful runelord) is an epic level Enchanter. Her CR is an unknown number that is higher than 20.
Tar Baphon, the Whispering Tyrant, is an epic level Lich Necromancer and possibly the strongest non-deific being to walk the face of Golarion. His CR is an unknown number that is higher than 21.
Xanderghul, Runelord of Pride (the most powerful runelord) is an epic-level Illusionist. His CR is an unknown number that is higher than 20.
Confirmed as epic, specified level:
Treerazer, Nascent Demon Lord and master of the blasted tarn, is an epic level demon who is currently in Kyonin. His CR is 25.
Lorthact is an exiled Archdevil dwelling in Korvosa. His CR is 23.
Ruthazek, the gorilla king of the Mwangi Expanse, gains a massive power boost when made into a nascent Demon Lord by Angezhan. His CR is 23.
Sicnavier V is a Great Wyrm Umbral Dragon. Her CR is 22.
Nruu'gal is an avatar of the Demon Lord Nurgal brought into being by an artifact sun-lens at the Sun Temple Colony. His CR is 21.
Kazavon is a Great Wyrm Blue Dragon who served as a warlord for Zon Kuthon and has had his remains turned into a set of powerful artifacts that can bring him back to life. His CR is 21.
The Risen Lord is a Dread Shadow Ancient Red Dragon. His CR is 21.
Deskari is the Demon Lord of locusts who is invading via the Worldwound. His CR is 30. Note: This CR is from a 3.5 product.
Achaekek, the Red Mantis, is demigod of assassins and works as the assassin of the gods. His CR is 30. Note: This CR is from a 3.5 product.
The Tarrasque is one of the spawn of Rovagug and it acts as Rovagug's Herald. Its CR is 25.
Ahriman is the lord of the Divs. His CR is 22. Note: This CR is from a 3.5 product.
Choral the Conqueror is an Advanced Great Wyrm Red Dragon who formerly ruled Brevoy (or at least claims to be the same individual). His CR is 25.
Daralathyxl is a Great Wyrm Red Dragon who dwells near Droskar's Crag. His CR is 26. Note: This CR is from a 3.5 product.
Astarathian is a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon who hides within the capital of Nidal and assists good individuals there. His CR is 27. Note: This CR is from a 3.5 product.
Minor speculation involved (These are characters whose CR, if you take their monster race and add in their class levels, come to numbers above 20, but, since final CR doesn't always come out to that, might have a different CR than I'm calcuating):
Sargogen, Lord of Coils, and ruler of the northern remnants of the ancient serpentfolk empire, is an epic level Serpentfolk Fighter. His CR is calculated as 25.
Carrock, the demonically-empowered Treant Blight Druid ruling part of Storasta in the Worldwound, comes out by my calculations has having a CR of 25. His listed CR in the section (which includes a statblock) is 20. Either way, he's powerful.
The Crying Kings of Gallowspire are a group of 4 Mummy Wizards who served the Whispering Tyrant. Their CRs are all calcuated as being 24.
Kaltestrua is a Marilith Sorceror who dwells in Ustalav. Her CR is calculated as 24.
Naggorim is an Noble Efreeti Sorceror dwelling beneath the Pyramid of Kymaria. His CR is calcualted as 23.
High Priest Orri Icetorc is a powerful Gnarled Frost Giant Fighter / Cleric of Kostchtchie. His CR is calculated as 22.
Gildais is a Winterwight Rogue who served the Whispering Tyrant. Her CR is calculated as 22.
Wilendithas the Eternal Hag is a powerful Green Hag Cleric of Gyronna. Her CR is calculated as 22.
Lrilatha is an Erinyes Inquisitor of Asmodeus sent to advise House Thrune in Cheliax. Her CR is calculated as 21.
There are some advanced Mu Spores down in the Darklands above the Midnight Mountains that serve as moons. I don't have an exact CR determined for them at the moment, but they're epic. Note: This CR is from a 3.5 product.
Alistraxia is a Marilth Rogue who serves the Demon Lord Abraxas. Her CR is calculated as 29. Note: This CR is from a 3.5 product.
Speculation involved (These beings don't have full statlines listed so far as I can tell, but my guess is that they are possibly epic):
Savith was the hero of ancient Azlant who fought the serpent god Ydersius. She's probably epic.
Ulunat, the Unholy First, is one of the Spawn of Rovagug. It might be epic.
Chemnosit, the Monarch Worm, is one of the Spawn of Rovagug. It might be epic.
Kothogaz, the Dance of Disharmony, is one of the Spawn of Rovagug. It might be epic.
Volnagur the End-Singer is one of the Spawn of Rovagug. It might be epic.
Some of the Drow Matriarchs in the Darklands are likely to be epic level.
Mengkare, the Gold Dragon who rules Hermea, is possibly epic level.
General Gorthoklek, the Pit Fiend who assists Abrogail in ruling Cheliax, is probably epic level.
There's probably some that I've missed. I've omitted deities, major planar entities (such as demon lords, horsemen, nascent demon lords, etc) unless they're on Golarion. I have also omitted anything with a CR I've calculated as 20 or less.
Thanks Guys! As usual you are all awesome!
I am thinking about stat blocking some epic characters using the epic rules in the original 3.5 supplement. They don't seem to over do it. Besides those rules were written by the people that wrote the inner sea guide when they were at WOTC.
What do you guys think of those epic rules (in absense of anything better, and I probably could not devise better myself).
Thanks for the lists, guys! They're great!
Thanks Guys! As usual you are all awesome!
I am thinking about stat blocking some epic characters using the epic rules in the original 3.5 supplement. They don't seem to over do it. Besides those rules were written by the people that wrote the inner sea guide when they were at WOTC.
What do you guys think of those epic rules (in absense of anything better, and I probably could not devise better myself).
I will collect some of my rambling thoughts for you below in swap/spoiler text so it's not huge. Fair warning: I talk A LOT. Sometimes (read: often) I even, dare I say it, ramble.
The short version: they're broken.
The long version: they're really, really, really broken.
First, do not confuse this with epic-hate. In fact, I LOVE me some Epic Level Handbook. Incidentally, I ALSO love me some epic gameplay. AND the epic rules presented in the book! But epic play (and rules) has so many broken elements within it that it's difficult to balance. As in, at all. Really, what this means is that you must be very, very careful in all you do. I list a HUGE number of problems and difficulties below, but again, don't think of them as hate, rather danger signs as things to watch out for and think about when using it.
... the first problem is that none of them use their own potential well. They're rather poorly developed, as far as game rules go, and any mage worth their salt would be able to drop those DC's down... a great deal, actually. BUT, they way they are developed is the way the game is MEANT to be used.
... the second problem is that what spell seeds can do is unspecified enough, and the number of seeds is limited enough, that you can learn to do anything quickly. Literally anything.
... the third problem is that the various modifiers are, well, um... poorly chosen. Both those that work for the player and those that work against the player are (often, paradoxically enough, simultaneously) both too weak and too powerful. In other words, too much power is given into the hands of the player (allowing too much AND not restraining enough) and is also taken out of the player (forcing them into rather arbitrarily narrow confines AND making them jump through needless hoops). All of this leads to too much freedom while stymieing a player's freedom. For the worse, in both cases.
... the forth problem is that the actual epic spells that are listed, as listed, are terrible. No one would want them. Ever. Too much work for too little impact. Also, clever use of non-epic spells can do the same thing, only better. Also, also, if you really want to use those spells, because they're 'canon'... still don't, because they're not actually canon. Because everyone forgets about...
... the single most important thing about epic spells: they literally cannot exist without GM permission. All d20 exists under the Rule 0 clause - that a GM can, at their whim, alter things. But epic spells are broken only if a GM allows them to be broken. The epic spells are actually treated like an optional variant rule in that, while guidelines (and rules!) are given for how to build epic spells, within that list of rules it specifies that unless a GM approves of the spell, it doesn't exist. Even the ones published in the book. It's part of the rule set for developing epic spells - if there is no direct GM (or rather "DM") approval, the spell fails and cannot be researched. While most of the rules in 3.X were made so that a GM COULD rule on it, but a GM was not actually needed, the epic spell rules instead were made so that a GM MUST rule on it - no GM, no spell, even the published ones. That said, once a GM says that an epic spell functions a certain way, only rule 0 can block it, and rule 0 is - in this case - an arbitrary and unsatisfying method of control, at best. The moral of the story: be very, very careful how you plan to deal with things. Think before you approve, because once approved it's treated like canon for the world.
So, what does this mean? If you're a GM and you want a spell to work as an epic spell, it does. If you don't, it doesn't. According to the Epic Handbook, it doesn't matter if it's published or not - until a current GM makes a current ruling about a spell in a game, it doesn't exist. That said, as in most GM fiat things, err on the side of permissiveness. If it looks good and a player has worked hard to create it, and it doesn't seem TOO unbalanced (because all epic spells ARE unbalanced, one way or the other), then it's probably fine.
To clarify, unlike in the previous spoiler, I don't just mean epic spells, as in the Epic Spellcasting feat. I mean 10th level+ spells are simply too much for a warrior to compete with. "Maximized, Empowered, Intensified, Consecrated, Widened, Extended, Chained, Twinned, Repeated, etc Horrid Wilting, GO! ... oh, wait, that was death for anything and everything that wasn't me. Um, well, warrior, thanks for holding them off for me. Warrior? Ah, killed you too. Oops. Oh well. New undead servant, GO!" This kind of thing starts showing around eleventh level of game play, but the problem stretches vastly into epic level progression.
Quite frankly, nothing can readily survive an "appropriate" CR epic monsters except by killing them quickly and first... which requires magic. And warriors aren't actually meant to do that anyway - they're meant to survive problems long enough for the mages to destroy the super threats: to be the tank. They just can't reasonably survive them. In other words, it's not reasonable to presume they can tank anything. I will say it's certainly possible - a smart or clever player can definitely do it - it's just difficult as all get-out, and when your allies are firing things that can and WILL kill lesser gods and greater demon lords quickly, your basically praying that death might be kind and not choose to take you today, please, a bit. Also maybe you'll pierce the damage reduction this time, perhaps.
Armor becomes something of a joke. AC actually becomes rather irrelevant at later non-epic levels, much less epic ones. Getting good armor isn't so much gaining the ability to avoid hits, as making it slightly less likely that you'll be hit more than once a round. By twentieth level, warriors have a +20 base attack bonus. +5 Full plate (+8 armor, +5 enhancement, +1 DEX = +14), +5 tower shield (+4 shield, +5 enhancement = 9) nets you a nice +33 AC <remember the +10, just because>! But 33-20 = 13. Which means that on an average die roll of 9, you're going to get hit (remember, factor in their relevant ability modifier - almost always AT LEAST +4 by this point, but usually much higher).
If you take the ELH rules, warriors switch to poor BAB to help counter this, but really the damage is done. At best it's a stalemate, but really it's not, as warriors gain better and better ability-score enhancement equipment, they quickly being to exceed the ability of others to avoid them. Further, they've already got their iterative attacks, which mean they get four shots per round - admittedly each less likely than the one before, but still. The warrior's ability to hit will basically grow with the ability to enchant armor, so it becomes a moot point. But no matter how much you grow to enchant armor, monster's'll be hitting it all day long. Sadly, this means that ranged warriors and casters who stay back have the best chance of surviving these levels, and ranged weapons often don't possess the necessary qualities to overcome various DRs acquired by this point, or, if they do, don't deal enough damage to take stuff down quickly enough. Which returns us to casters instead.
Now another problem: warriors lose out and only grow with worst BAB past epic levels. BUT! Creatures do not. Any creature with epic hit dice continues to gain BAB as normal (best, moderate, or worst) until their creature HD runs out. Further, they gain normal BAB from any class levels below 20 they have. So a 30th level fighter's got a BAB of 25, but a 10 HD outsider with 20 levels of fighter's got a BAB of 30 - five points higher means he can ignore ten levels more of mage-made defenses. Fighter (or ranger, or barbarian) loses out, there. Oh, hey, but saves become GOOD, right? So does that redeem our warriors? Nope. Everything is save-or-die by this time, as their super-hit points... aren't. They've been shackled so long with poor saves, that switching up here doesn't help. Monks, Paladins, and Rangers - especially monks and paladins - gain a great boon in that they have more than one good save, but that's rarely enough to save them, as even things targeting good saves will work much of the time. That horrid wilting mentioned above would kill anything and everything (well any non-good thing) within roughly a ten-levels higher than its caster. And if that isn't enough replace two feats (maximize and empower) with one epic feat that does better, and you're good for maybe ten more levels. By the time that runs out of effectiveness, you're up against gods (and far, far worse) anyway, and the game completely changes yet again.
Also, even epic items are subject to disjunction. So all that time and effort suddenly vanishes, and what was once a too-powerful character suddenly becomes nearly worthless. The balance between items also fails around this point, as energy resistances don't escalate rapidly enough, while SR continues fine, and DR quickly becomes problematic or worthless.
One good thing is the extra damages that warriors gain, especially with their new critical hit bonuses... just in time for creatures to gain immunities to critical hits. There's more, but I'm getting bored writing problems with these things. They are cool - very cool, but have too many little issues, and I've spent too much time on warriors already![/spoilers]
[spoiler=more difficulties with monsters]While much of this was covered in warriors part 2, above, monsters also start gaining immunities. Many, many immunities. Partially this is because without them a spellcaster would literally control worlds with little effort. However these immunities are ridiculous things that cause headaches for everyone more often than not. Tie this in with regeneration, and you've got a recipe for seemingly unkillable monsters. Plus, epic monster ability scores are... awful. Too much, really. But, once you pass their threshold, much like non-epic monsters they quickly cease to be a threat. Fight maybe five of 'em, and you're golden forever, fully equipped to kill all others of that race you ever come across. ... which is weird as, you know, they're epic. It's mostly a measure of finding their ONE weakness, and learning how to hammer that until they stop moving forever. This also stacks with the great saves, excellent BAB, and really good hit points to make the entire thing a slug-fest.
Now, I've thrown a ton of problems with epic stuff at you... but for all that, I still love it. Why? Because epic gameplay, for all its faults, is really its own reward. The fact is, having achieved epic gameplay is a reward in itself. Yes, you can make reality cry, whimpering quietly in a corner at the thought of you passing, but at the same time, by this point that's kind of expected: you've passed the bounds of mortality, after all. Further, those slug-fest long battles or save-or-die effects can be fun, IF properly managed. And most of all, with careful adjudication*, instead, you can completely transform the experience. Instead of accepting the rules as written, use them for a kind of general guideline, and accept that things work differently at epic levels. Create new prestige classes (with unique spell-likes!), and show off the NIFTYness of epic abilities. Great descriptions go far, and encouraging creative use of non-epic skills and powers in epic ways can be amazing. Also, simply creating new spell-seeds and carefully tweaking the Epic Spellcaster system can create an amazing variety and a capture imagination. Despite all its flaws, epic is my goal in any campaign I play in... it's what I plan for and around, and what I look forward to the most! And if it's done right, it's a reward in itself!
One other thing to keep in mind. As an optional rule, in the Core Rulebook, they suggest using the ELH, but also indicate that if you don't have it (or don't like it), simply let progression for classes continue AS IS. This is because Paizo gets that there are problems at that level and encourage you to choose how to handle it on your own, or use basic levels to get through it.
ANYWAY, I've gone on far, far too long, and I'm sorry if I bored you. I DID warn you, however.
*(is this the right word? Autocorrect said it is...)
Tons of great stuff.
Spoken like someone who knows what they're talking about :)
I'm really really really hoping one of the GenCon announcements is that they're going to start working on higher-level stuff.
Just have to wait and see.
Thanks for the lists, guys! They're great!
Thanks Guys! As usual you are all awesome!
I am thinking about stat blocking some epic characters using the epic rules in the original 3.5 supplement. They don't seem to over do it. Besides those rules were written by the people that wrote the inner sea guide when they were at WOTC.
What do you guys think of those epic rules (in absense of anything better, and I probably could not devise better myself).
I will collect some of my rambling thoughts for you below in swap/spoiler text so it's not huge. Fair warning: I talk A LOT. Sometimes (read: often) I even, dare I say it, ramble.
The short version: they're broken.
The long version: they're really, really, really broken.First, do not confuse this with epic-hate. In fact, I LOVE me some Epic Level Handbook. Incidentally, I ALSO love me some epic gameplay. AND the epic rules presented in the book! But epic play (and rules) has so many broken elements within it that it's difficult to balance. As in, at all. Really, what this means is that you must be very, very careful in all you do. I list a HUGE number of problems and difficulties below, but again, don't think of them as hate, rather danger signs as things to watch out for and think about when using it.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
No quite the opposite! Thank you for the taking the time to help! It is appreciated!
|
Tons of stuff, some good some very doubtful.
Just a few comments:
- why your example warrior hasn't a ring of of deflection and something (possibly slotless) giving him natural armor? Those 10 AC points without epic items would make a lot of difference in your comparison;
- you haven't cited one of the most broken mechanics: the possibility to cast extra quickened spells in one round. That is a game breaking option, as it allow more actions to spellcasters only;
- epic spells: outside the Epic handbook a few decent epic spells have been published. The scope of epic spells should be to do special effects like creating a flying citadel or change a area climate creating a tropical paradise in the middle of a glacier. The combat versions have all the problems you depicted.
- "If the clever player hasn't gotten his infinite wishes by 11th level, he will within the realm of epics."
No. That is exactly why we have a GM and not a computer adjudicating the game.
Free swag for nothing is exactly what should not happen at any level.
Sure some thing will be so mundane that a epic character will not have trouble with it, like Bill Gates will not have trouble spending 50.000 $ on a wine bottle, but even him will think before buying a 747 or a transatlantic as a personal mean of transportation.
|
|
- "Maximized, Empowered, Intensified, Consecrated, Widened, Extended, Chained, Twinned, Repeated, etc Horrid Wilting, GO". How many splat book for how many producer? if the caster get to select his feat from every source in existence the result will be awful independently if the game is epic or no.
And the warrior should should have the same option. I am sure that perusing a few splat books I will find the right feats/prestige classes to make the damage from that spell meaningless.
- Your more "balanced" maximized empowered horrid wilting. Level 13 spell. If I am not wrong it require a 27th level spell caster to take the feats to get that level of spells. And he would have used 4 his 6 epic feats.
Damage from the spell 120+1/2*20d6, average 155 hp.
What is the problem for a 27th level fighter that will almost certainly make the save? Even a "weakling" with 16 cons and a +6 enhancement to constitution and no inherent bonus will have about 12 hp/level, i.e. 324 hp.
Let's suppose that it is a "mental blast" spell that require a will save and our fighter has dumped his wisdom and never cared abut getting better will saves, so he regularly fail the ST. He can survive 2 of the wizard super blasts and deliver more than 300 hp of damage with one full attack.
It is possible to further tweak the spells so that the damage increase even further, but killing a warrior type with a single damage dealing spell will be an exception, not the norm.
A "common" 27th level fighter would have a modified constitution of around 30 and about 440 hp.
- Save or sucks, save or die. Nice if the got past the target defences, but most of them do nothing if they don't pass them.
We have the tendency to remember the times when the "invincible" monster was taken down by a single spell, but we forget the times when the spell failed again and again and the spellcaster would have been reduced to a bleeding pulp if there wasn't a warrior to help him.
The warrior instead deliver constant damage that is very predictable. More often than not it is more functional to boost the warrior types than spam save or die spells.
- a tangent: metamagic rods.
Another great balance breaking item.
The possibility to use a feat the you can't normally access is great, Removing the cost of using the feat (the increase in the spell level9 is a bad mechanic. The worst part is that the power of the rods, especially hose affecting level 7-9 spells, scale with the level of the caster. The higher level you are the more you get from the same rod.
NOTE: please read post with a wry smile and a warm voice. I've re-read it and, without that context, it seems much colder than intended! Also, I don't know how to change the words to sound better, so here's a note for any readers to clarify my tone.
Some excellent counter-points!
Well, Diego, it seems you're not arguing that Epic isn't broken, just that it's not broken in the way that I think it is... which it's totally broken in the way I think it is, but you are pointing out good additional ways that it's also broken. I thought, at least, that I clarified in my original post that these were potential pit falls not be-all-end-all comprehensive problems that every game experiences. That said, you do make some very good points. I was going without any books and running off memory alone, so, if I made a mistake, whoops! Totally my bad, and I apologize. I also apologize if I implied things that weren't true. This was not my intent. Now to attempt a counter! Away!
(Also by memory without books, 'cause we're in the middle of house re-arrangement! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!)Now, all that said, you do bring up good points. I was going by my head, not by books, so I didn't pull out the calculation charts - you make a good note for fighter hit points, however many fighters DON'T have a 16 CON, even at epic levels. I've run multiples of games with warriors with ranges from 12 to 14, tending a bit on the lower side, as they were mostly focused on their strength or dexterity. Once they gain wishes-for-CON, however, the majority of warriors do have at least a 17.
Further, you're forgetting a very important part about dealing 155 hit points on average: the possibility of instant death, no matter who you are. By 3rd Edition RAW, IIRC, taking an overwhelming amount of damage - what they define, I think, as more than 50 hit points in a round - can cause you to die if you fail a fortitude save. Can this be adjucated? Yes. In fact, I'd argue that it SHOULD be altered at epic levels. The book mentions this very problem, I believe. That said, by base rules, it's there, and it causes far more save-or-die effects than you seem to be accounting for.
In combat, it's (usually) not a skill check, attack, or other d20 roll that the caster makes, it's (usually) a d20 roll that the VICTIM makes according to the caster's whim. Magic is marginally about the power of a caster (the DC), but mostly it's about the weakness of the target - are they vulnerable, immune, resistant, and what their saves are. Metamagic is about making a caster even more readily able to inflict their targets with whatever they so choose. Free metamagic is... devastating, and makes save-or-die effects all the worse, especially at epic levels. And these are available starting very early, although the most powerful are, of course, reserved for later. As for the multiple quickened spells in a round... well, I guess I just supposed that was self-obvious, though you are right that it's worth mentioning. Sorry. Only casters benefit from that, warriors can't gain anything comparable, and that's kind of abysmal, really. There's not too much to say there, other than it's a danger.
Two other things...
First, something neither of us has mentioned yet is the dreaded ioun stone - the single most horridly broken item in the game, if a caster-player saves up their funds and/or wishes. Specifically, the orange what's'it ioun stone that grants a +1 increase to caster level. One of my players worked out the math once, and if a caster chooses nothing but those, they can fit something like 5,000+ around their head, granting said caster a cool +5,000 or more to their caster level. All bow before the great and terrible!
Second, that epic warrior character we keep mentioning is constantly relying on the party's epic spellcaster to build him items that allow him to anything. And in the 3rd Edition era, this was costing those casters their XP, limiting their level growth, limiting their willingness to build things... which brings me to the original reason I came back here again...
One other thing to watch for (and possibly change?) rules-wise when using the 3rd Edition, it cost XP for EVERYTHING. Anything magical that was made usually cost XP, and the epic spellcasting was no exception. Pathfinder has removed this mechanic from the game, substituting it on a 5-gold piece-value-per-point-of-XP*, however it was a powerful balancing factor before, so you'll want to look hard at what you're doing with it. ALSO, the XP requirements for gaining levels has changed between Pathfinder and 3.X - something else you'll have to re-examine and consider when choosing to use 3.0 material, which is two steps removed.
*To clarify, they followed the rule of thumb that 3rd Edition had which indicated that for every 5gp-worth of magical stuff, 1 XP was required, only reversed. For every 1XP a spell costs, instead it now costs 5gp per XP it used to. Example: wish now requires a 25,000 gold diamond, whereas before it cost 5,000 XP. (5,000 XP) * (5 gp/xp) = (25,000 gp)
|
|
AFAIK infinite wishes are only possible if:
- you summon outsiders and force them to grant wishes.
- easy to counter without any DM fiat. After a time the outsiders notice what you are doing an react. No wish granting race do it easily and all of them dislike being forced in granting them.
It is possible to avoid retaliation from the wish granting creatures but if you annoy them enough the precautions that you need to take to avoid being identified and punished become so extreme that in practice the "infinite wishes" aren't infinite of free in any form or measure.
- wish granting items with daily uses.
- magic items costs are guidelines, nothing more. A "infinite wishes" item simply should have an infinite cost.
"The Final Wish", AP n. 24 has an article called Wishcraft, it was for the 3.5 but it will work in Pathfindr too. Read it if you can get it, it is very interesting.
from your example it'd be an average of 11/lvl, not 12 (11.5, however, given the game rules we round down on average! Yes, this is silly, I know).
Silly for silly: full dice at first level and you raise the average to 6 for the first eight levels, then you use the preferred class bonus for HP every other level.
And a guy with 30 constitution at level 27 is far, far away from a guy that has focused on constitution.Note that average of the dice rolled isn't rounded down, the dice are rolled and give whole numbers.
If they aren't rolled (like in the Pathfinder society organized play) the value used is the average roll FRU.
15 point build: you start with 16 (raised to 18 by the race adjustment) in strength, 15 in constitution, 10 intelligence,dexterity and wisdom. 8 charisma, no stat is completely dumped and you don't get a glaring weakness in will saves.
You put 1 characteristic increment in constitution and the others in strength, Final base strength 22, constitution 16.
Add +5 inherent bonus and +10 bonus items (absolutely feasible at level 27) and you have a constitution of 31.
Fortitude save for massive damage? The DC is 15. Death on a natural roll of 1 in high level play. And the fighter will routinely deal more than 50 hp of damage with each attack.
It favour the warrior with the multiple attack, not the spellcaster with one single massive attack.
Note that Pathfinder has done away with all the ways to get more than 1 extra action (and so an extra spell) during a round (but there are a few ways to get one extra attack).
So at best, under Pathfinder rules, a caster could cast 2 spell and one of them should count as a swift action.
The Epic manual was a 3.0 supplement and under those rules a quickened spell was a free action, a completely different beast.
Even if Paizo were to make a Mythic Characters manual (the name they use when referring to epic levels) I doubt they will repeat that error.
Metamagic rods: I am writhing something for the suggestion and houserule section of the forum, one of these day I will publish it.
All bow before the great and terrible!
cap to spell damage.
It don't add spellcasting slots, new spells or other bonuses, only to the level at which you cast the spells.Sure, you will pass any spell resistance, and then?
something else you'll have to re-examine and consider when choosing to use 3.0 material, which is two steps removed.
Fully agree, the Epic handbook 2 step removed and so it should be adjudicated with extreme caution.
I thought that it that was already a starting point taken for granted in this discussion.
AFAIK infinite wishes are only possible if...
Nah. That's ONE way, sure, and most methods revolve around this, but it is not the only way by any means. At least that was so in 3.X; in Pathfinder it might be true now.
magic items costs are guidelines, nothing more. A "infinite wishes" item simply should have an infinite cost.
Sure, they're only guidelines. But adjucating that infinite 8th level spells (and below) carries an infinite cost is completely utilizing GM fiat.
"The Final Wish", AP n. 24 has an article called Wishcraft, it was for the 3.5 but it will work in Pathfindr too. Read it if you can get it, it is very interesting.
So I've heard, and we have it, but I haven't looked at it yet, as we haven't yet determined who the GM shall be, and none of us want to
Silly for silly: full dice at first level and you raise the average to 6 for the first eight levels, then you use the preferred class bonus for HP every other level. ... Note that average of the dice rolled isn't rounded down, the dice are rolled and give whole numbers.
If they aren't rolled (like in the Pathfinder society organized play) the value used is the average roll FRU.
NICE! I always forget about Pathfinder bonus stuff in debates like this, and it's one of my favorite new mechanics! Also, I've never played Pathfinder Society Organized Play. And my using 11 instead of 11.5, is just a joke - of course you don't round the average down, you add the sum of each roll.
And a guy with 30 constitution at level 27 is far, far away from a guy that has focused on constitution. ... 15 point build: you start with 16 (raised to 18 by the race adjustment) in strength, 15 in constitution, 10 intelligence,dexterity and wisdom. 8 charisma, no stat is completely dumped and you don't get a glaring weakness in will saves.
You put 1 characteristic increment in constitution and the others in strength, Final base strength 22, constitution 16.
Add +5 inherent bonus and +10 bonus items (absolutely feasible at level 27) and you have a constitution of 31.
Very nice, but I don't know many races aside from humans and dwarves who get the +2 to CON. Actually, never mind - half orcs and half elves too. Nonetheless. It's nice to put that bonus in CON, but most warriors in my games put it in strength (or DEX), not constitution. Also, one, nice disjunction (a single spell) = drop that CON by ten points. Even a dispel magic can drop it for a crucial 1d4 rounds. Further, this can be done quickly - you were the one that mentioned WotC's limitless quickened spells (and spell-likes), and I've seen those devastate a party.
One other great thing that Paizo has done is rid themselves of many save-or-die effects, mostly. However, again, we're talking about the ELH... it doesn't have those limitations.
meh, 5,000 caster levels ain't nothin' (no, he didn't really say this)
Not only SR, but also counter magic, dispel checks, durations, ranges, (none of which have caps based on level) and the ELH has a TON of ways of bypassing spell-damage caps. It's far more than just SR or damage! Also, look at things like fabricate, or other non-damage spells that don't have a caster cap. Stone Shape: suddenly rearranging 5,000 cubit feet of stone three times per day with a standard action doesn't seem all that difficult. Instant castle (or whatever). Really with a 5k caster level, it becomes diffcult to stop you at all. DCs aren't affected, but most things are.
Fully agree, the Epic handbook 2 step removed and so it should be adjudicated with extreme caution.
I thought that it that was already a starting point taken for granted in this discussion.
Of course, but it never hurts to clarify. Sometimes even I get fooled - as this very discussion is proof! - by the apparent similarities, and then when the difference hit they can be jarring. Basically this is just a reminder! :)
E: Well, pardon me, please, I'm afraid this is now cut short because my wife MIGHT have just gone into labor. Later!
|
|
And a guy with 30 constitution at level 27 is far, far away from a guy that has focused on constitution. ... 15 point build: you start with 16 (raised to 18 by the race adjustment) in strength, 15 in constitution, 10 intelligence,dexterity and wisdom. 8 charisma, no stat is completely dumped and you don't get a glaring weakness in will saves.
You put 1 characteristic increment in constitution and the others in strength, Final base strength 22, constitution 16.
Add +5 inherent bonus and +10 bonus items (absolutely feasible at level 27) and you have a constitution of 31.Very nice, but I don't know many races aside from humans and dwarves who get the +2 to CON.
...
Also, one, nice disjunction (a single spell) = drop that CON by ten points.
Actually the racial bonus is in strength.
Disjunction will do much more that removing the constitution bonus if you fail the save.Dispel magic? Meh, Greater DM cap at level 20, a epic belt of constitution is at least level 21 and you can build it with a caster level as high as your caster level without any increase in cost.
As usual it is action economy. It is worth it to cast a targeted dispel magic against my belt to remove my constitution bonus or other actions are better? Disjunction at least affect several targets.
Note that I am arguing for the point of view of using the Epic Handbook with Pathfinder rules, so I take for granted and enforced the Pathfinder limitations.
E: Well, pardon me, please, I'm afraid this is now cut short because my wife MIGHT have just gone into labor. Later!
Best wishes!
Actually the racial bonus is in strength.
UGH. My bad! Completely! Nonetheless, via point-buy, usually the STR is already 18. Sorry, I was distracted at the time and didn't get a chance to edit my post as I would like before making it.
Disjunction will do much more that removing the constitution bonus if you fail the save.
Dispel magic? Meh, Greater DM cap at level 20, a epic belt of constitution is at least level 21 and you can build it with a caster level as high as your caster level without any increase in cost.
As usual it is action economy. It is worth it to cast a targeted dispel magic against my belt to remove my constitution bonus or other actions are better? Disjunction at least affect several targets.
Interesting. I remember running into the Greater DM cap recently and being surprised by it. I suppose the ol' 3.X didn't have said cap? Also, yes, disjunction will do much more on a failed save. Point is, it's only one spell. And, with a careful selection of feats, can be quickened. Thus the action economy, while preserved, isn't preserved as strongly as it might be.
Note that I am arguing for the point of view of using the Epic Handbook with Pathfinder rules, so I take for granted and enforced the Pathfinder limitations.
Granted. Worth keeping in mind that the Epic book doesn't clarify this, though.
Best wishes!
E: Well, pardon me, please, I'm afraid this is now cut short because my wife MIGHT have just gone into labor. Later!
THANKS! She was, and our NEW SON came out great!
I was thinking of looking over the price and wealth-by-level guidelines, but... I don't have my book handy, and it's not worth it right now. Also, seven hours sleep in three days =/= vigor! Babies are awesome but they annihilate sleep! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Peace!
Interesting. I remember running into the Greater DM cap recently and being surprised by it. I suppose the ol' 3.X didn't have said cap? Also, yes, disjunction will do much more on a failed save. Point is, it's only one spell. And, with a careful selection of feats, can be quickened. Thus the action economy, while preserved, isn't preserved as strongly as it might be.Disjunction will do much more that removing the constitution bonus if you fail the save.
Dispel magic? Meh, Greater DM cap at level 20, a epic belt of constitution is at least level 21 and you can build it with a caster level as high as your caster level without any increase in cost.
As usual it is action economy. It is worth it to cast a targeted dispel magic against my belt to remove my constitution bonus or other actions are better? Disjunction at least affect several targets.
That's backwards ... in 3.5e, greater dispel magic had a +20 cap on the roll, which Pathfinder did away with. I hadn't noticed before because it's been years since I paid attention to dispel magic.
Under the old rules, once you were a level 30 caster, nobody could dispel anything you did (though they could disjoin it). Personally, I like the change.
|
|
That's backwards ... in 3.5e, greater dispel magic had a +20 cap on the roll, which Pathfinder did away with. I hadn't noticed before because it's been years since I paid attention to dispel magic.Under the old rules, once you were a level 30 caster, nobody could dispel anything you did (though they could disjoin it). Personally, I like the change.
Right, the cap now is the number of spells you can cancel, not the maximum level used in the dispel check.
Tac made a booboo!
Hahahah! You're totally right! My bad. I remember now that was using the old 3.5 book (we only have so much Core Rulebook goodness to go around) and ran into that. Heh! Between my lack of sleep and lack of time (babies're GREAT!) I'd forgotten what, exactly, happened. In that particular case, I'd been arguing one thing, read another, and then discovering I was right... only forgetting that I was! >.<
Thanks.
And yes, that's another thing to keep in mind when adjucating spells - they work similarly, but with juuuuuuuuuust enough important difference that even IF you use the printed epic spells, remember that they worked off of a different base than even 3.5! And yeah, that's actually quite a good move. Very balancing.
Peace!
I'm going to point out some fallacies and errors here.
Epic breaks because of wealth and items. The problem isn't that you are going to fail saves. The problem is you will only fail them on a 1, and sometimes not even then.
Why? DISMAL. Remember, you can make magic items that grant ALL KINDS of bonuses...you know, like the ones casters get for themselves.
A DISMAL ring (Deflection, Insight, Sacred, Morale And Luck) +3 grants a +15 bonus to AC and comes in at under 200k. With Epic wealth, you can enhance it to +5 all, and it slots in about 350k.
There are VERY few official ways to increase your To hit ability to keep up. 3rd party has items that grant insight and some competency bonuses to hit. There are FAR more ways to grant AC on the cheap.
FOr saves, you do the same thing. LIMPS ring/cloak (Luck, Insight, Morale, Profane, Sacred) +5 all adds +25 to all your saves, all the time, stacks nicely with +5 Resistance. Again, not an Epic item.
Ioun stones are not a problem. The bonuses from Ioun stones do NOT stack unless they specifically state that they do (same source, etc). 5000 Orange Ioun stones grant you +1 caster level...that's all. Even the 'new' Paizo ones specifically call out if they stack or not.
Improved Spell Capacity, which lets you use 10th and higher spell slots, has NO level requirement. Your limit is the number of Epic BOnus feats, not your caster level. You could be level 21 and have 13th level spells, it's all good.
Anyone who is Epic level and hasn't used that wealth to get +5 inherent to all ability scores, and +6 enhanced on top of it, is not using their wealth properly. +6 to all is 200k Belt of Magnificence. +5 to all is 137,500 x 6, or 825K total...easily affordable with level 21 WBL. Nobody at Epic levels should ever have less then a 22 Constitution, it's likely going to be 26. Getting +11 across the board is, to me, one of the things an Epic character just DOES. It shows you've arrived when all your stats are 20+.
Multispell and Epic Magic do break Epic levels. But there are plenty of Melee builds around which make hashtags of Epic balance, too. Uberchargers can routinely do 800+ damage on a charge. Epic Archery can get just sick. Polymorphed forms are rote.
Consider this Melee option:
level 21 Barb/Frenzied Berserker 10th. Supreme Power Attack, x2 dmg, two handed weapon.
Polymorphed Form is a Firbolg, base Str 36, +5 inherent, +5 levels, +6 Enhance, +6 rage, +8 frenzy = Str 64, or +27. He's using a size L Greatsword/Halberd/Spiked Chain of Valor and Speed +5 (GMW from cleric), so size L base weapon.
When he charges, he has leap attack, supreme Power attack.
Base Weapon, WF, +21 BAB, +27 Str, +5, +2 charge, +1 Ioun competence. So, he's +58 to hit. Takes a full 21 pt Power Attack, but dumps the full attack penalty to his AC, so he's probably down in the 40's on AC, or something (DISMAL ring and all).
He's doing: Wpn DMG + 2x Str (54) + Supreme Power Attack (84) + Leap Attack (42). He's charging, so Valor says x2.
Oh, and he's got Pounce, naturally.
He has 20' of reach...in essence, he's a fireball. And he's got Supreme Cleave...so if he drops something, he goes and gets a free hit on the next thing.
Wpn dmg x2 + 360 dmg per blow. He has 5 attacks.
And this can all easily be done BEFORE level 21.
===Aelryinth
I believe JJ indicated that Tar-Baphon was supposed to be south of level 30, Geb and Nex are mid-20's, and the Runelords were levels 17,18,19, 20, 21, 22, and 23, with Karzoug exactly in the middle of them.
Tar-baphon was powerful enough that Aroden never personally showed up to beat him down once he was a lich. That's pretty strong.
Geb was strong enough to turn the corpse of a dead demigoddess warrior maiden of virtue into a lich wizardess! I believe he also turned like a thousand warrior maidens to stone with a single spell...
Nex created his own sizable demiplanes...multiples of them! And could fold them up and carry them around!
Saveth is supposedly the highest level human fighter that has walked the planet, and she killed a demigod in personal combat.
===Aelryinth
I'm going to point out some fallacies and errors here.
Epic breaks because of wealth and items. The problem isn't that you are going to fail saves. The problem is you will only fail them on a 1, and sometimes not even then.
Why? DISMAL. Remember, you can make magic items that grant ALL KINDS of bonuses...you know, like the ones casters get for themselves.
Which, I'll point out, is why my epic game is not only low magic (in terms of items), you might even call it anorexic magic.
Screw wealth by level. I want to run a game that works, not be bound by some arbitrary constriction that dictates that all PCs should be walking Christmas trees of items after level 20, even if it makes the game unplayable.
Multispell and Epic Magic do break Epic levels. But there are plenty of Melee builds around which make hashtags of Epic balance, too. Uberchargers can routinely do 800+ damage on a charge. Epic Archery can get just sick. Polymorphed forms are rote.
Epic combat is indeed sick. As it should be. But the thing to note is that an epic game should be about more than combat.
I've recently started including very few horrific combats. Character deaths are commonplace, but not much of a hindrance. That's just how it is - with the forces the characters are dealing with, things can be quite deadly.
However, having every combat be with a twinked optimized Titanic kraken with Devastating Critical and the full Rapidstrike tree is not what the game is about (even if it is a fun beastie to create). An epic game should be about epic story, not epic combats, just like an adventure path is about great adventures, not great combats.
---
I think that in Golarion, there's no possible option but to cap PC levels, perhaps in the late 20s, perhaps at the 36 that keeps getting bandied about. But that's an artifact of Golarion and the rules assumptions made for that universe - with different assumptions, levels far beyond that can be playable and enjoyable. And WBL is one of the biggest assumptions in that regard.
Much as Multispell is cool, I do think it's a mistake, just like it would be a mistake to give characters infinite iterative attacks. Not to say that something like Multispell would be out of the question, I just think that as implemented it screws too much with the assumptions of the underlying rules system.
Hello, Aelryinth! I actually spent a couple of minutes trying to say your name out loud. I've got a pronunciation that should work, but how do you say it? "Ale-ree-ihnth"? Sorry, I always enjoy figuring out how to say people's names.
I'm going to point out some fallacies and errors here.
Epic breaks because of wealth and items. The problem isn't that you are going to fail saves. The problem is you will only fail them on a 1, and sometimes not even then.
I kind of think this was accepted? In fact, it seems to have been pointed to by Diego! :)
Why? DISMAL. Remember, you can make magic items that grant ALL KINDS of bonuses...you know, like the ones casters get for themselves.
Well, you can in Pathfinder. Pre-pathfinder, you needed to have a caster.
A DISMAL ring (Deflection, Insight, Sacred, Morale And Luck) +3 grants a +15 bonus to AC and comes in at under 200k. With Epic wealth, you can enhance it to +5 all, and it slots in about 350k.
There are VERY few official ways to increase your To hit ability to keep up. 3rd party has items that grant insight and some competency bonuses to hit. There are FAR more ways to grant AC on the cheap.
Alright, I'll bite: who has 350k to spend on a ring? ONE ring (to rule them all)? I'm not talking just about wealth in general, I'm talking about actual liquid commodities that can be poured into a single item. Again, casters could do it - easily - by ninth level using summoning cheese. But most people aren't going to be spending that kind of money or time on those things. Also one spell eliminates that. ALSO, also, I've forgotten now: how, exactly, do arcanists grant sacred bonuses and morale bonuses? I seriously don't recall. It's been too long since I've crafted a ring with those. Also, I don't have mah books handeh!
FOr saves, you do the same thing. LIMPS ring/cloak (Luck, Insight, Morale, Profane, Sacred) +5 all adds +25 to all your saves, all the time, stacks nicely with +5 Resistance. Again, not an Epic item.
Again, where's one person going to get all those funds. Currently, we're talking two items. Two very, very expensive items. I'll readily admit that it's possible to do this - that's part of my original argument, in fact - but you seem to be bringing it up as a fallacy. I'm not seeing the gold-to-character ratio for non-casters.
Ioun stones are not a problem. The bonuses from Ioun stones do NOT stack unless they specifically state that they do (same source, etc). 5000 Orange Ioun stones grant you +1 caster level...that's all. Even the 'new' Paizo ones specifically call out if they stack or not.
False. Non-typed bonuses stack with themselves and others. The ioun stones - unless they specify a kind of bonus (such as the insight bonus to AC) - do not grant a kind of bonus. Thus they stack. That's presuming the "+1 caster level" is considered a bonus (I think it is) instead of an increase (which it could be argued for).
Improved Spell Capacity, which lets you use 10th and higher spell slots, has NO level requirement. Your limit is the number of Epic BOnus feats, not your caster level. You could be level 21 and have 13th level spells, it's all good.
IIRC, didn't it require that you take feats each time you wanted a new spell level after 10th? I may be incorrect in this, but that's what I remember. I know that deities can completely blow past the 9th level spell barrier by divine casting (or whatever that salient ability is called). But I thought that epics needed one-feat-per-spell-level-after-9th type of thing. Again, no book at this time, so I'm asking.
Anyone who is Epic level and hasn't used that wealth to get +5 inherent to all ability scores, and +6 enhanced on top of it, is not using their wealth properly. +6 to all is 200k Belt of Magnificence. +5 to all is 137,500 x 6, or 825K total...easily affordable with level 21 WBL. Nobody at Epic levels should ever have less then a 22 Constitution, it's likely going to be 26. Getting +11 across the board is, to me, one of the things an Epic character just DOES. It shows you've arrived when all your stats are 20+.
Again, nice sentiment, but if you're just looking at the "wealth-guidelines by level" table, you're not looking properly. Because most adventurers' wealth is tied up in limited-use commodities: wands, staves, potions etc. While it's certainly reasonable for the party caster who has infinite wishes to do this for the party, unless you've got one of those wish machines going, the wealth is going to be restricted. Again, all but that +5 inherent bonus can be suppressed or destroyed really easily.
Multispell and Epic Magic do break Epic levels. But there are plenty of Melee builds around which make hashtags of Epic balance, too. Uberchargers can routinely do 800+ damage on a charge. Epic Archery can get just sick. Polymorphed forms are rote.
I'm afraid I don't understand "rote". Sorry! What's it mean?
Consider this Melee option:
level 21 Barb/Frenzied Berserker 10th. Supreme Power Attack, x2 dmg, two handed weapon.
Polymorphed Form is a Firbolg, base Str 36, +5 inherent, +5 levels, +6 Enhance, +6 rage, +8 frenzy = Str 64, or +27. He's using a size L Greatsword/Halberd/Spiked Chain of Valor and Speed +5 (GMW from cleric), so size L base weapon.
When he charges, he has leap attack, supreme Power attack.Base Weapon, WF, +21 BAB, +27 Str, +5, +2 charge, +1 Ioun competence. So, he's +58 to hit. Takes a full 21 pt Power Attack, but dumps the full attack penalty to his AC, so he's probably down in the 40's on AC, or something (DISMAL ring and all).
He's doing: Wpn DMG + 2x Str (54) + Supreme Power Attack (84) + Leap Attack (42). He's charging, so Valor says x2.
Oh, and he's got Pounce, naturally.
He has 20' of reach...in essence, he's a fireball. And he's got Supreme Cleave...so if he drops something, he goes and gets a free hit on the next thing.
Wpn dmg x2 + 360 dmg per blow. He has 5 attacks.
And this can all easily be done BEFORE level 21.
I like it in theory... but now some counter-points!
First: why is it polymorphed into a Firbolg? At what point did the party get together, and decide to spend their money on polymorphing the barbarian into a Firbolg? For how long and how often is said barbarian polymorphed?
What's an "of Valor" weapon (I don't recall what "valor" is from)?
Pre-epic +15 AC that you were talking about is negated here and more. With a 21 pt power drain, even presuming my guy earlier with a 33 armor, he's down to 28. He could get up to 38, but by that point he's spending an awful lot of money on his stuff. Natural AC wouldn't stack with itself, so unless the firbolg has a better than +10, that's all he's getting. Still, you were very close. Also, armor choices and dexterity could alter this, but not by much - your build presumes a barbarian thus in light or medium armor and DEX score in the 20's. I don't know too many barbarians - epic or not - that get into the 20's unless the mage goes crazy with an infinite wish machine. Armor in general is balanced so that it can't provide a larger than +9 bonus without magical enhancement (although this isn't completely true in certain 3.0 splat books or Paizo's stuff), though a DEX higher than 30 means you should forgo the armor and get some enhanced cloth.
Unless your caster is specifically pumping everything into the barbarian, or into an infinite wish machine (at which point this becomes nothing big) that's straining their resources. Also, how does he have Pounce? It's a great trait, but where does your fighter get it from? And that +360 presumes he has the ability to charge... which he often won't. Further Pounce allows him to make a full attack - but not a full attack that gains his charge bonuses at the same time.
You specify that he has supreme power attack and leap attack when he's charging... do you mean when he's frenzied? The former I'm sure is a frenzied berzerker thing while frenzied, but the latter I don't recall. If you just mean while charging, then he loses a great deal of power after his first hit. If both are while frenzied that adds a lot, although he's still got to be a high-mobility to use his leap attack, IIRC. If both require charging... well, he's seriously hampered by his inability to do so. He's still doing weapon damage +27 five times per round, though. That'll at least hurt an epic creature, if not fully overcome its DR and regeneration.
Over all, though, the most broken part of epic (the entire point of the debate) is magic, be it items or actual spells. Basically: be careful who/what/when/where you stat peeps up!
NON-debate stuff! (Or: "What?! Tac can do something OTHER than debate?!"
believe JJ indicated that Tar-Baphon was supposed to be south of level 30, Geb and Nex are mid-20's, and the Runelords were levels 17,18,19, 20, 21, 22, and 23, with Karzoug exactly in the middle of them.
Tar-baphon was powerful enough that Aroden never personally showed up to beat him down once he was a lich. That's pretty strong.
Geb was strong enough to turn the corpse of a dead demigoddess warrior maiden of virtue into a lich wizardess! I believe he also turned like a thousand warrior maidens to stone with a single spell...
Nex created his own sizable demiplanes...multiples of them! And could fold them up and carry them around!
Saveth is supposedly the highest level human fighter that has walked the planet, and she killed a demigod in personal combat.
Tar-Baphon being lower than 30 makes sense, as you can do most of those things around then. I didn't get the impression that Aroden was ever frightened by Tar-Baphon, only that gods simply don't DO that for some reason in Golarion. Iomedae is a crusader-goddess. Instead of tackling the World Wound herself, however, she's sent her church to do it. I highly doubt it's because she's frightened, what with being a paladin and all. Most of Aroden's great deeds on the planet were done pre-ascension, IIRC, although post-immortality. I could easily be wrong about that, though, I don't know.
The one exception to this that I can think of is the demigod Ydersius that Savith put down.
Geb is a nightmare! What's fascinating (and compelling) to me is that he came back as a ghost because he couldn't be sure Nex was dead... That's... pretty terrible. I mean, basically he's an insane ghost. Even if Nex - the real Nex - presented himself to Geb and the two fought and Geb won (and killed Nex) would Geb's spirit be satisfied? After all, it IS possible (however unlikely) that Nex might be raised from the dead! He might have gone off the deep end enough that nothing can ever put him to rest for sure. Which begs the question: is there a way to eliminate a ghost without satisfying it's ghost-quest? And how do you satisfy the ghost-quest of something completely insane? One thought that comes to me is that I've heard a bit of a spoiler (while trying to stay as spoiler-free as possible):
Could something similar be attempted with something like Geb? This might take a James, a Dev, or someone similar to answer. I don't know the details about that, just that this is what I've heard. If none of these things apply, then he's truly and completely immortal and unconquerable.
One other minor thing that's never been satisfied for me: ghosts get their equipment from it being on their corpse. Eventually the corpse turns to dust. What then? What about the equipment: eventually it rusts/rots/whatever away. What then?
Another thing I've found strange is the sudden switch Arazni underwent from warrior of some unspecified type to wizard of unspecified, but epic levels in becoming a lich. Yes, liches require caster levels, but there are warrior archetypes that allow for this... also she didn't undergo the process of her own accord, it was forced on her. The alignment change I kind of get: much like a helm of opposite alignment, that can be forced on you. But really, it's strange, over-all, what happened with her. If Geb can arbitrarily reassign class levels, why couldn't he have used any other creature at all to become his stand-in. I doubt it had to do with lust of any kind. I mean... ew. Also... ew. And Geb, despite being evil, doesn't really strike me as the "evil for the sake of evil!" kind of guy. I grant the idea of a dead goddess is kind of cool... but he basically ignored everything that made her herself, rebuilt her into a completely different creature (with similar physical structure) and said "Hey, rule my kingdom for me, I'mm'a go take a long nap", proceeding directly to have bad dreams about how Nex may have bested him. The major problem is that it did nothing for him. At all. Another thing I don't recall right now is if Geb got her stuff before becoming a ghost or after, although I think it's after.
And Nex is... strange. I'm guessing chaotic neutral - he really doesn't seem to care about much other than himself and doing something like assaulting Absalom... apparently "just because"... doesn't seem terribly stable. It seems basically he saw something he wanted and decided to take it, ignoring everyone else's desires. I'm also kind of surprised about the history of Jalmary - Nex just gifted it over to the Maharajah. I wonder if it's because he was already in a feud-war against Geb, the Maharajah wanted it, and Nex just kind of went "Eh, sure, why not?" to avoid the hassle of fighting two wars at once. Alternatively, he could have just agreed to it as a way to imprison whatever is buried deep beneath the isle. In which case the return of Jalmaray to the Vudrans wasn't a matter of greed or quest for ownership(as the Arclords thought) but rather a matter of keeping the ancient thing that will annihilate us all sealed. Thoughts? Devs?
However, having every combat be with a twinked optimized Titanic kraken with Devastating Critical and the full Rapidstrike tree is not what the game is about (even if it is a fun beastie to create). An epic game should be about epic story, not epic combats, just like an adventure path is about great adventures, not great combats.
This. While I try to warn of the dangers of epic play, combat isn't what it's all about. Again, being able to reshape 5,000 square feet of stone a few times per day is terrific. There are so many amazing RP things to do with epics, it's fabulous. Exploring planes, creating them, building entire civilizations, even ascending to divinity is all at the edge of possibility at epic play.
I think that in Golarion, there's no possible option but to cap PC levels, perhaps in the late 20s, perhaps at the 36 that keeps getting bandied about. But that's an artifact of Golarion and the rules assumptions made for that universe - with different assumptions, levels far beyond that can be playable and enjoyable. And WBL is one of the biggest assumptions in that regard.
While I don't really like this idea, it's possible that this is necessary. For symmetry sake, I'd make the cap at 40, and also because that's basically how many class levels the 3.0 deities had. At that point, you're pretty much directly stepping on divine toes in terms of power. Granted, most of 'em had sixty HD - but that was due to the 20 outsider HD they tended to have.
And now: away! To BABY! Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!
Epic level wealth by level is INSANE. A 350k ring for +25 AC is 1 MILLION gp cheaper then a +6 Ring of Protection. And yes, you can afford +6 and greater items VERY quickly. The +3 DISMAL Ring is ~125k for +15 AC.
So yes, that Ring is totally viable. Wizards are not restricted to NOT using sacred and morale bonuses. It's no more non-standard then Insight or Luck.
As for it being vulnerable...c'mon, you've got +30 to saves, it's not like you're going to fail a save on it. And how are they going to target it under your glove?
Ioun Stones use the Same Source rule. +1 caster level from an Orange Ioun Stone is the same as +1 Caster level from another. Same source = do not stack. This has been accepted in all iterations of the game, and I was really, really suprised to see this misinterpretation. Heck, I was astonished that Paizo invented Ioun Stones that DID stack (and specifically allowed them to in their wording).
Polymorph by rote meant you took advantage of shapechanging magic to assume better base forms. A Firbolg was size L, 36 Str, 15 Dex, 24 Con, and +12 Nat AC. Then you added modifiers and gear on. If you were a Melee and didn't use this or War Troll, you were a bit suspect. There are numerous ways to do this, from a Psionic Skin to just getting Polymorphed Any Object by a wizard (note, this is before PF nerfed Poly Other and the Shapechange line. We're talking 3.5 Epic rules).
Valor is a 3.5 enchantment, +1 cost, that doubles the damage of a weapon on a charge.
A +2 DISMAL ring worked out to about 50k for +10 AC (Twice as good as a same cost Ring/Deflection). Combine with +5 armor, permanent boosts and being a Firbolg, and yeah, with -20 to AC you could easily still have a 40ish AC.
JJ said Tar-Baphon was post-30. Take it for what you will. Most powerful lich to walk the world is pretty key. SLaughtered a demigoddess who thought she could take him. Aroden's mightiest foe ever, definitely more dangerous then the Worldwound demon.
Likewise, "a warrior like Saveth has not walked this world since her passing." Ergo, highest level mortal warrior in the last 10,000 years.
Geb took the dead corpse of a demigoddess of valor, restored it to life (required for liches), forcefully turned ANOTHER BEING into a lich at the same time he brought her back to life, and then altered her from a warrior into a wizardess AND turned her CE or whatever in so doing. So, yes, he's VERY good at necromancy and messing with souls. He messed with the soul of a demigoddess!
========
My words on magic items were in response to the poster who said that magic items didn't scale fast enough to keep pace with the power of spells. Actually, with Epic wealth and multiple bonuses, they can scale MUCH faster. It's the ability to hit and do damage that tends to stall out, unless you allow multiple bonuses to ability scores (precedent, you can get a +1 permanent Sacred bonus to stats in some of the PF AP modules...), morphed forms, and other bonuses to hit and damage to keep pace. Certainly, the monsters don't. Power gamers routinely hit 60 AC by level 20. It just got sillier in Epic.
You are correct in that it takes an Epic FEAT for each additional level of spells. It does not take Epic LEVELS, per se. Logically, a wizard or cleric could take Additional Spell level twice every 3 levels and get ahead of the level curve, if they were inclined to do so.
I think I got all your questions...
==Aelryinth
Epic level wealth by level is INSANE. A 350k ring for +25 AC is 1 MILLION gp cheaper then a +6 Ring of Protection. And yes, you can afford +6 and greater items VERY quickly. The +3 DISMAL Ring is ~125k for +15 AC.
There's one major flaw in this, which is stated in the magic item creation rules.
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide.
(and further on)
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point.
So a ring granting +25 to AC is not 1 million gp cheaper than a +6 ring unless someone wants to intentionally ignore the safety checks written into the rules. Just like a ring of true strike - it's way more expensive, since it really should be priced as a +25 non-enhancement bonus item - and it should require a 75th-level caster (3x the bonus).
That's also why a wondrous item of true strike isn't 8,000gp (or even 2,000gp if you're really trying to game the rules), it's 800,000gp .. because it's equivalent to a +20 sword - and it should require a 60th-level caster. And that's just by Pathfinder rules. By the 3.5e epic creation rules, it would be way, way more pricey.
The DISMAL ring works because you can always stack lesser bonuses. It's how the game is made. You're just adding more then Nat AC and Deflection to the mix.
A permanent +20 Insight bonus is, however, quite Epic.
There's no difference between having a Ring with +25 AC buffs and having 5 dif slotless items that grant +5 AC each...you already do something similar with Nat ARmor and deflection.
It's the multiple bonuses that make it work. If it was just +25 Deflection, I'd agree with you.
Incidentally, your argument is one reason why Polymorph is so broken in 3.5. When you can transform into a form with +30 Nat Armor, or that can grant +10 Deflection bonuses (Cha to Deflect), how is that NOT the equivalent of Epic magic?
And the ruling for a True Strike sword has been to consider it the equivalent of a +10 weapon, that's all. Doable before level 30.
==Aelryinth
Incidentally, your argument is one reason why Polymorph is so broken in 3.5. When you can transform into a form with +30 Nat Armor, or that can grant +10 Deflection bonuses (Cha to Deflect), how is that NOT the equivalent of Epic magic?
Oh, don't I know it. Highest level character at our table is a 3.5e druid. And in 3.5, of course, there are feats that let you turn into pretty much anything in existence, even up to Colossal.
That's one of the reasons I haven't yet thrown a tarrasque at them; I'm getting tired of the druid learning yet another form that makes them immune to yet another thing.